awouldbehipster's practice notes (part two)

Yeh, I agree about not duping yourself into suppressing the negative sensations/emotions. That's not the practise. It is allowing them to arise and pass away of their own accord. No suppression!

When you say, when we bring attention to those emotions, we observe with equanimity, right? and you let those emotions run their course. You are talking about just the sensations accompanying those emotions, right? Or are you observing the mental reactions or verbal ones while the emotions are flowing? The whole Goenka bent is to let the sensations arise but to cut off the mental reaction to the sensations that accompanies the emotion. That is what Goenka is referring to when he uses the term "sankhara" or formation. The mental reaction.

In my experience over the years of doing this constantly, for example, let's take anger as an example again, the negative type. As I let it be there as a sensation flowing at the chest, and with my head above the water not allowing that sensation to be reacted to with a mental, verbal or physical negative action in line with that sensation, eventually it gets less and less and then dissipates. I am saying now that over the years, that sensation , because of allowing it to be there and flow and not multiply it's strength by mentally reacting to it, has lost a lot of it's previous potency. You are not throwing any more fuel on the fire, and allowing the fire to burn itself out.

I am a little brainwashed by my years with Goenka and maybe I am wanting to see those sensations to slowly burn themselves out, but that is what "seems" to have happened to me. Nothing has burnt out completely, but those sensations are felt differently. But yeh, maybe it is because I have changed the habit of reacting automatically to them. And/or I've changed the habit pattern of the mind so that they now appear to "feel" differently, I really don't know. Something to investigate.

I havent thought about this in a while. This is what Goenka's technique is all about. There is the great belief that the fire will eventually burn out and thus no more miserable sensations will arise and thus enlightenment. This is maybe why people immersed in that tradition don't see enlightenment as something achievable in this lifetime. Yeh, it is very de-empowering.

But this still doesn't change the fact, I feel sensations have grown less potent over time.

Kenneth, what is your experience with these sensations? Do they slowly dissipate overtime if they aren't reacted to? What's it like for an arhat?

"Yeh, I agree about not duping yourself into suppressing the negative sensations/emtotions. That's not the practise. It is allowing it to arise and pass away.
When you say, when we bring attention to those emotions, we observe with equanimity, right? and you let those emotions run their course. You are talking about just the sensations accompanying of those emotions, right? Or are you observing the mental reactions or verbal ones while the emotions are flowing? The whole Goenka bent is to let it arise but to cut off the mental reaction to the sensations that accompanies the emtotion. That is what Goenka is referring to when he uses the term "sankhara" or formation. The mental reaction.

"

I see nothing wrong with observing mental formations. In fact, ignoring them is tantamount to suppressing/repressing them. There's no need to get caught up in them, nor to fuel them. Not bringing awareness to these processes, which are equally as valid as body sensations, is unwise in my opinion. It's better to learn how to work with them then to try and cut them off.

P.S. This is why I prefer the Mahasi Sayadaw method to the Goenka method. I've never gotten the sense from Mahasi's written instruction that one should give special attention to the body and basically ignore sankharas. The point is to cultivate equanimity in regards to "formations" (sankharas), seeing them for what they are without allowing them to cause undue suffering.

"I see nothing wrong with observing mental formations. In fact, ignoring them is tantamount to suppressing/repressing them. There's not need to get caught up in them, or to fuel them. Not brining awareness to these processes, which are equally as valid as body sensations, is unwise in my opinion. It's better to learn how to work with them then to try and cut them off."

I agree. I now, post path, can see mental formations arise and disembed from them quite easily. It is extremely easy to do so when post path. YEh, I also agree that one should be aware of mental formations as well as physical sensations. It's what got me over the line to 1st path and it is what I believe was missing from my practice previously. Touche! Hehe!

BUT, I disagree that you are suppressing a mental formation if you cut it off by just being aware of the sensation. Yes, there is the danger there that one will force themselves not to react and cause tension in the mind. But there's a big difference between a mind that is completely equanimous versus a mind forced to "withstand" a sensation.

For me, I can choose to just observe just the sensation. If I am observing it with equanimity, there is only the vedana conciousness arising, the mental reaction just doesn't occur. Through many years of developing this practice this is just what happens...no tension is developed and a calm mind is maintained. Or I can observe the sensation as well as the mental formation that is dependent on that sensation as both arise almost simultaneously.

Hmmm, I am only talking from my own experience. I have come out of so many crappy habits due to developing awareness and equanimity to sensations but I 100% back you in saying that mental formations must be included in the investigation. If those immersed in the Goenka tradition did that, they would make so much progress and more people would take dips in nibbana, to use a Goenka quote.

And I am one to speak. I included the mahasi technique along with bare awareness of sensations to get 1st path. So I am also a massive fan of Mahasi and I am only trying to talk from my experience within the Goenka tradition to convey that there is a lot of progress one can make in that tradition. Goenka's technique helped me a hell of a lot to progress on the path. BUT Mahasi's technique gave me the push I needed to do it completely!

Edited to say: That I don't consider myself part of the Goenka tradition anymore. Sure, I feel grateful to it and him for all i gained. I like this anti-mushroom tradition (KFD and DhO) we are all apart of and consider this my new tradition if I was to say i was a part of one.

"BUT, I disagree that you are suppressing a mental formation if you cut it off by just being aware of the sensation. Yes, there is the danger there that one will force themselves not to react and cause tension in the mind. But there's a big difference between a mind that is completely equanimous versus a mind forced to "withstand" a sensation. "

Right, but it's not only the conscious suppression (which brings noticeable tension) that is to be considered. It's also quite possible to delude one's self into thinking that formations aren't arising, when in fact they have just found a way to repress them into their unconscious. It would be somewhat easy to continue this façade while sitting, or while in a monastic setting. But people who do this are more likely to react strongly when provoked, which will came as a shock to them. In other words, we do want to hide our "formations" in our shadow. That would be very detrimental to one's mental health. It is better to uncover these processes and allow them to re-integrate, so that one's relationship to them can become more mature. This is obviously not a traditional/conservative/dogmatic Buddhist view.

Now, I agree that having equanimity can help to keep our emotions from spinning out of control (allowing them to arise, only to run out of fuel shortly thereafter). There are ways in which our habitual reactions to feelings and emotions can make them worse. But that's not the same as "cutting them off", in my opinion. The notion that these things can be cut off completely seems mythical or archetypal to me, as does perfecting all of the parimitas, or achieving sustained and utterly boundless bodhicitta, or what have you.

I'm not saying that someone can't make progress in insight while doing the Goenka method. I just take issue with certain aspects of his teaching or view. I do appreciate your further clarification.

"
I'm not saying that someone can't make progress in insight while doing the Goenka method. I just take issue with certain aspects of his teaching or view. I do appreciate your further clarification."

Yes, I have discovered that his view is quite extreme and very traditionally Burmese buddhist. And, yes I am discovering that a lot of it is dogmatic and doesn't hold up to real experience of these stages of enlightenment. And thus my opinions are in a constant state of flux and flow. All this is very thought provoking and fun!

Thanks for the great discussion, Jackson. Gotta go to work!

"Yes, I have discovered that his view is quite extreme and very traditionally Burmese buddhist. And, yes I am discovering that a lot of it is dogmatic and doesn't hold up to real experience of these stages of enlightenment. And thus my opinions are in a constant state of flux and flow. All this is very thought provoking and fun!

Thanks for the great discussion, Jackson. Gotta go to work!
"

You bet Any time.

" It would be somewhat easy to continue this façade while sitting, or while in a monastic setting. But people who do this are more likely to react strongly when provoked, which will came as a shock to them. In other words, we do want to hide our "formations" in our shadow. That would be very detrimental to one's mental health. It is better to uncover these processes and allow them to re-integrate, so that one's relationship to them can become more mature. This is obviously not a traditional/conservative/dogmatic Buddhist view.
"

That's very well put. My experience is that the daily round, and in particular my personal hang-ups as revealed therin, is the domain in which this re-integration is most effectively done.
The Vajrayana lines of Dharma, with which my affinity is greatest, actually do emphasise this process of uncovering/re-integrating these patterns of mental-emotional reactivity, specifically with a view to further uncovering the wisdom/intelligence of which they are distorted expresssions. This is often mis-popularized in terms of "sublimation", but at any rate there are even instructions for "calling up" disturbing states such as anger in the context of sitting in order to uncover the dynamics of wisdom/confusion as it plays out in any given mental/emotional formation.
So, sort of two step process: become aware of the presencing of mental-emotional formation, then in clear seeing discern the way in which it is a distortion of deeper wisdom-intelligence. There are as many flavors of wisdom/compassion/intelligence as there are of confusion,desire and dullness etc, and this is where the famous vajrayana dictum "the bigger the klesha (poison), the bigger the insight" comes from. So from this perspective, over time, the distortions do grow less compelling and less intense, but nothing is lost from the spectrum of our humanness. Rather, our humanness becomes more fully expressed.

Very well stated, Jake. Thanks.

I've only recently encountered Vajrayana teachings like what you summarized above, and my current experience resonates very strongly with this view. Though, I haven't really had a chance to do it in a conscious way. Perhaps I'll learn to do so over time.

There's something very earthy and human about Vajrayana Buddhism, which provides a much needed balance to teachings about transcendence and liberation. The more I look into it, the more I like it.

Hey guys! Good to hear you talk about this interesting topic. While in Amsterdam, I fell on Adyashanti's book "The End of Your World", which also addresses this subject in a very simple yet practical way, while giving invaluable advice for those who, having had a glimpse of awakening, are trying to stabilize their initial breakthrough as a permanent state. Highly recommended.

"Hey guys! Good to hear you talk about this interesting topic. While in Amsterdam, I fell on Adyashanti's book "The End of Your World", which also addresses this subject in a very simple yet practical way, while giving invaluable advice for those who, having had a glimpse of awakening, are trying to stabilize their initial breakthrough as a permanent state. Highly recommended.
"

I haven't read the book, but I have the audio program. Good, indeed.

"I am of the opinion that the dark night symptoms are related to chakras somehow and the whole cleaning out process that seems to be going on in the body."-Nikolai

You and the gang have covered a lot of ground since you posted the above quote on Monday, Nick, but I'd like to address this point. All of us are in the habit of using medical terms like "symptoms" and "diagnosis" in referring to the phenomena that arise at various points along the Progress of Insight, so it's understandable that we would come to think of the unpleasant parts as pathological. But there is another way to look at it: the unpleasant sensations and mind states that come during the dukkha nanas, aka the "dark night," aka Insight Knowledges 6-10, are the natural consequence of the unstable nature of those particular strata of mind, just as the pleasant sensations and mind states of the four material jhanas, aka Insight Knowledges 1,4,5, and 11 are the natural consequence of the stable nature of those four strata of mind. Much is revealed when we start thinking of the mind as territory that can be visited. When you visit unstable territory (think of a rocky, shifting hillside), you have difficult, unstable, often unpleasant experiences. When you visit stable territory (think of a grassy meadow), you have calm, joyful, blissful, equanimous experiences. It's all about which territory you happen to be passing through at the time. None of it is pathological or wrong or anything to be transcended or gotten rid of. It's your mind, after all. You're going to be moving up and down through all of it for the rest of your life. You just want to make peace with it.

(cont)

edit: typo

(cont)

Because of the natural progression of development, a yogi will tend to spend a certain amount of time developing or fleshing out each stratum of mind. They are developed in order, one by one (and then again, at a deeper level, as in a spiral). And the "cutting edge" of your practice, the one that forms the temporary ceiling of how far up the spectrum of consciousness you can go in any given sitting, will color your experience all day long. That's why a yogi whose cutting edge is the A&P thinks life is beautiful and getting better. And that's why a yogi whose cutting edge is the dukkha nanas thinks life is dreadful and getting worse: it's all about where you are encountering the stickiness of your own mind. In other words, the place you haven't yet made peace with draws you like a magnet. This also explains whey the dark night is no big deal after you have worked through it and gotten Path; you no longer stick to it even though you are up and down through it all day long and in each sitting.

Some parts of your mind are inherently heavenly and some parts are inherently hellish. You won't get rid of any of it, so you may as well abandon that project as soon as possible. The kind of freedom that will satisfy comes from being equally at home in heaven and hell. Make friends with your own built-in hell and be free. Reject parts of your own mind and only suffering can result.

Karuna,

Kenneth

Oh man, I love those words. Practice so that you can be happy in heaven and happy in hell.

Nice!

"
Some parts of your mind are inherently heavenly and some parts are inherently hellish. You won't get rid of any of it, so you may as well abandon that project as soon as possible. The kind of freedom that will satisfy comes from being equally at home in heaven and hell. Make friends with your own built-in hell and be free. Reject parts of your own mind and only suffering can result.

Karuna,

Kenneth
"

I am once again feeling a bit lost in all this. I think I am where we speak of. Dark nighting again, probably reobservation. I think all this is quite timely and Im taking on board what you said, Kenneth. It is only these past few days that I have started realising that I still am clinging to the ideas I was introduced to in the Goenka tradition for many years. I will follow your advice.

One question, you said that for you , in the BG podcast that you suffered a lot of depression while still 3rd path. Did you have trouble disembedding from it? How did you deal with it in the best way? I ask because I am starting to realise I am full of s*#t, that is I think i have been blind to a lot of my own experience and reading it wrongly. Looking over past posts and dwelling on certain things has started to show me, how deluded I still am.

I say stuff, because it appears that way to me in that moment. I really appreciate your feedback because along with Daniel, you have been the only ones who have given consistently wise advise in my entire yogi career.

My advice, FWIW, Nick? Cut yourself some slack!

"
My advice, FWIW, Nick? Cut yourself some slack!



"

Hehe, I had to look up the defintion of FWIW. I feel much better after saying I am full of BS. Just allowing some space to to see things differently. I shall cut myself some slack! **cracks open a beer**

I'm just about always full of BS. There is an amazing amount of real freedom in being honest with yourself.

"Some parts of your mind are inherently heavenly and some parts are inherently hellish. You won't get rid of any of it, so you may as well abandon that project as soon as possible. The kind of freedom that will satisfy comes from being equally at home in heaven and hell. Make friends with your own built-in hell and be free. Reject parts of your own mind and only suffering can result.

Karuna,

Kenneth
"

JEEBUS!

That was clear, concise and on point. Or so my mind says now...

Andrew

Please take a moment (less than five minutes) to watch the following video by Shinzen Young, titled "A Deeper Freedom: Experiences of Selflessness"...

bit.ly/bYjrzA

What Shinzen breaks down in just over 4 minutes is impressive. Here's what I find so interesting about his explanation...

The first type of selflessness he describes is an untangling of the phenomenal components (the five skandhas, or what he calls "feel, image, talk") that are normally tangled up and experienced as a 'self'. This comes from First Turning, or Hinayana, Buddhism. The components are seen as more or less real happenings, but we confuse ourselves into thinking that their interaction is a separate entity, which it is not.

The second type of selflessness he describes occurs when these phenomenal components are themselves seen through, or experienced as "waves". This is more of a Second Turning, or Madhyamika, understanding of selflessness. Not only is there no ego-self, but there's really no phenomenal occurrence that is inherently existent. As there is always continual flux, the existence of any conditioned phenomena is necessarily provisional, not ultimate. This is can be experienced directly as Shinzen describes.

The third type of selflessness is the experience of Zero (or what Shinzen often refers to as the Source). This, to me, sounds like the experience of fruition as described in the vipassana tradition. The provisionally existing components of phenomenal experience cease altogether, usually only for a moment.

(continued below)

(continued from above)

His fourth description of selflessness is where things start to get really interesting. It is the experience of resting in Zero while feel, image, and talk are allowed to arise and fully express the human personality. Describing such a Zero, from which things arise and to which things return, is closest to Third Turning, or Buddha Nature, Buddhism. For, Zero is who we really are while simultaneously being no one.

I think it's great that he can explain this so clearly, and in under five minutes. He seems to have seamlessly integrated the Three Turnings of Buddhism without making reference to any of them. I'm impressed.

So, what did you think of the video?

~Jackson

"You said that...you suffered a lot of depression while still 3rd path. Did you have trouble disembedding from it?"-Nikolai

Yes, I had horrible depression right up until 4th Path. Looking back, I think part of the problem may have been that I wasn't diligent enough in working on the fundamentals; I thought I was too advanced to bother with daily noting practice. That's one of the reasons I'm so adamant lately that everyone continue to do all three gears throughout their lives, no matter their attainment. Even now, although depression seems to have gone away, I spend quite a bit of time each day noting body sensations, feeling tone, mind states, and thoughts. The conditioning of a lifetime doesn't just disappear even after enlightenment, so it's the work of a lifetime to dis-embed from experience moment by moment. Luckily, it's so delightful to be dis-embedded that noting practice becmomes a labor of love rather than a burden.

When you are going through the dark night and suffering with the difficult mind states that can arise there, I recommend being especially diligent with 1st Gear noting practice whenever the dark moods begin to color your experience. The sooner you interrupt the downward spiral of negativity by noting, e.g., "despair, sadness, frustration, grief, hopelessness, anger, bitterness, hatred, rage," the better. You will also notice that interspersed with these so-called negative mind states are momentary flashes of joy, happiness, contentment, exhilaration, wonder, curiosity, amusement, etc. It's only our half-awakeness that causes mind state like hopelessness to take over, become "emotions" and lay like a blanket over our entire day, coloring everything a dismal shade of grey. When you feel hopelessness or cynicism, go immediately to noting and get free of it before it gains momentum.

Kenneth

""You said that...you suffered a lot of depression while still 3rd path. Did you have trouble disembedding from it?"-Nikolai

Yes, I had horrible depression right up until 4th Path. Looking back, I think part of the problem may have been that I wasn't diligent enough in working on the fundamentals; I thought I was too advanced to bother with daily noting practice. That's one of the reasons I'm so adamant lately that everyone continue to do all three gears throughout their lives, no matter their attainment. Even now, although depression seems to have gone away, I spend quite a bit of time each day noting body sensations, feeling tone, mind states, and thoughts. The conditioning of a lifetime doesn't just disappear even after enlightenment, so it's the work of a lifetime to dis-embed from experience moment by moment. Luckily, it's so delightful to be dis-embedded that noting practice becmomes a labor of love rather than a burden.

When you are going through the dark night and suffering with the difficult mind states that can arise there, I recommend being especially diligent with 1st Gear noting practice whenever the dark moods begin to color your experience. The sooner you interrupt the downward spiral of negativity by noting, e.g., "despair, sadness, frustration, grief, hopelessness, anger, bitterness, hatred, rage," the better. You will also notice that interspersed with these so-called negative mind states are momentary flashes of joy, happiness, contentment, exhilaration, wonder, curiosity, amusement, etc. It's only our half-awakeness that causes mind state like hopelessness to take over, become "emotions" and lay like a blanket over our entire day, coloring everything a dismal shade of grey. When you feel hopelessness or cynicism, go immediately to noting and get free of it before it gains momentum.

Kenneth"

Brilliant! Thank you Kenneth! This makes sense to me now. I haven't been noting as much since I got 1st path and maybe that is why I have had a bit of a rough time now and then. I shall endeveour to note the dark night as it swings by. Thank you for going through all that crap, Kenneth. It means you learnt what not to do and now we get to benefit from all that hard work. Muchisimas gracias, kalyana mitta!!!!!!!!!!

"When you are going through the dark night and suffering with the difficult mind states that can arise there, I recommend being especially diligent with 1st Gear noting practice whenever the dark moods begin to color your experience. The sooner you interrupt the downward spiral of negativity by noting, e.g., "despair, sadness, frustration, grief, hopelessness, anger, bitterness, hatred, rage," the better. You will also notice that interspersed with these so-called negative mind states are momentary flashes of joy, happiness, contentment, exhilaration, wonder, curiosity, amusement, etc. It's only our half-awakeness that causes mind state like hopelessness to take over, become "emotions" and lay like a blanket over our entire day, coloring everything a dismal shade of grey. When you feel hopelessness or cynicism, go immediately to noting and get free of it before it gains momentum.

Kenneth"

YES! I cannot second this strongly enough. Please! Anyone who is dealing with the most seemingly insignificant negative mind-states or depression or Dark Night or anything in between. Please come back to your noting practice.

Also, I can testify to the beauty, actually, of looking straight at something like the miseries of romance, for example, to discover moment-to-moment that it isn't purely misery or frustration or sadness that's happening - but also things like gratitude and love and joy.

And, on the flip side, it can be very worthwhile (especially if you see yourself ballooning off into a naive fog) to look at a mind-state like elation and see the despair and irritation and fatigue mixed in with that - not to become depressed, mind you, but to understand the whole thing and not get lost in any of it.