There is no spoon

"Right now, my breath is the "go to" thing in the absence of anything else. But I am trying hard not to be totally random, a la choiceless awareness, so I tend to now only divert to really strong stuff. For example, when the raptures come, I will try and focus on them and note where they begin and end, and how they propagate."-Tomo

Excellent!

Keep up the good work. By objectifying each stratum of mind in turn, you are dis-identying from it. What was previously taken as "self" is now the object of awareness; it is "seen" from another point of view, higher up the ladder. This new point of view is now taken as "self." This is the natural progression of things. But this new apparent self is looking at the world from a more integrated point of view than the old apparent self. This new "self" which is the view from the stratum of mind in which you are currently embedded, will in turn be objectified. Having objectified it, you will dis-identify with it and move to the next rung on the ladder. And so on. There are, however, a finite number of rungs. You will eventually run out of new strata of mind to mistake for self. This is called enlightenment.

Mudita

Kenneth

What an amazingly helpful thread this is turning out to be!!!

"The lights and raptures are characteristic of the 4th ñana, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing of Phenomena. This is also 2nd jhana territory. As you know, this is arguably the most important of milestones because it shows that you have truly penetrated the objects of awareness and are doing "true vipassana.""

And so by continually, and now it seems rather quickly, reaching this stage in each sit, that places me on my jhanic arc and, if I were looking, would help me identify what came next?

"And so by continually, and now it seems rather quickly, reaching this stage in each sit, that places me on my jhanic arc and, if I were looking, would help me identify what came next?"-Tomo

That's right, Tomo. With this easily recognizable landmark as a guide, you can now look at what comes before and after it and begin to create your own personal map of your mental topography. Keep in mind also that you will encounter the 4th ñana/A&P both while ascending and descending the jhanic arc in each sitting, which gives you even more data points by which to triangulate your progress.

Nice work!

Kenneth

edit: spelling

Amazing what a little message board posting can do!

"
Amazing what a little message board posting can do!



"

Nah, I am just toying with you all. I got fourth path a while ago and am just copy/pasting from my personal notes, spreading it out to make it look good.

Cold, shivering cold. That is what I felt after 45m tonight. When the timer rang, I just sat there shivering for a good 5 minutes. Like my November "Frustration and Deliverance" stuff. The bulk of the sit was watching the various sensations associated with the rapture effects as they sort of had their way with me. There were also times of relative peace where I just watched my breath, simply, and ever so gently tried to feel more "spacious". I tried to see if I could sense the rest of the room behind me. And I noted the things that came into my awareness during this calm, house sounds mostly. Then the vibrations would start up again.

Nothing visual, that I can recall.

Tired.

"By objectifying each stratum of mind in turn, you are dis-identying from it. What was previously taken as "self" is now the object of awareness; it is "seen" from another point of view, higher up the ladder. This new point of view is now taken as "self." This is the natural progression of things. But this new apparent self is looking at the world from a more integrated point of view than the old apparent self. This new "self" which is the view from the stratum of mind in which you are currently embedded, will in turn be objectified. Having objectified it, you will dis-identify with it and move to the next rung on the ladder. And so on. There are, however, a finite number of rungs. You will eventually run out of new strata of mind to mistake for self. This is called enlightenment.
"

I've been going over this important post again and, since I am apparently doing this, it seems equally important for me to fully grok it. How, exactly, am I objectifying and then dis-identifying from "self" in what I described? As you know, self and not-self are pretty slippery concepts for me.

Tomo, if you can observe a thing (objectify it) then it can't be you. Thus the subject-object duality breaks down for more and more "things" in your experience. That's the process that leads to the realization called "not self." At some point there will be nothing in your experience that you haven't objectified. After that, what are "you?"

Two sits today. A short 20m jaunt this morning, where I was able to quickly get the A&P raptures without breath counting, and spent the time trying to explore their vibrations and behaviour. I did sense a slight pressure in my forehead after a while, that I had not ever noticed before. But otherwise generally covering familiar territory, grooving it in I suppose.

In contrast, tonight's 45m was kind of a mess. My concentration was very weak, and was drifting in thought more than once. I was also in a lot of physical discomfort, with tension in my shoulders and pain in my knee. The latter I did explore for a while, seeing the small vibrations on top of which are superimposed the slower throbbing vibrations, but the pain was not working for me and so eventually readjusted to ease things up. Even more comfortable, I had a hard time staying focused.

So I'll end by asking: is there much to be gained by sitting through pain? My knees are not great and I don't doubt this will reoccur.

Several shorter sits, unremarkable as far as "breaking new ground". Patience, perseverance, and grooving in familiar territory.

I have been holding off putting something up, for lack of much to say, until a friend's prodding suggested that maybe that is important too.

My practice has been a little scattered, and I am finding the last few sits have had more mental disturbances as I am catching myself drifting in thought. Yes, I am catching myself, but takes much longer than usual. Notwithstanding that, the things I am trying to keep in my head are to not force things, just sit and pay attention, as well as keeping half an eye towards the jhanic arc.

In one of my few longer sits over the last several days, I ended up with a more "spacious" feeling in my head, but I can't really describe it more than that. During that same sit, I also spent some time trying to focus my attention to my brow, just to see what that would do. After a couple of minutes, I noticed a slight tingling and warmth there, but it did not develop into anything more substantial.

Again, patience and perseverance. And, feeling just a little bit funky.

Tomo, it sounds like you have a really healthy approach to working with scattered mental activity. This sort of thing is usually stages specific for me, being the most prominent in the 10th ñana (Re-Observation). I find that the harder I push, the worse off I am.

You wrote, "Notwithstanding that, the things I am trying to keep in my head are to not force things, just sit and pay attention, as well as keeping half an eye towards the jhanic arc."

I think you're right on track.

~Jackson

A longish 50m sit tonight. Concentration was very good, and I was able to feel myself lock onto my breath easily. Small rapture sensations came quickly, but I tried very hard to remain apart from them and to not stick-handle the experience. I got some weak sense of passing through the stages, although the dukkha ones were pretty much a jumble. Then, an interesting sensation that I don't recall having before: a distinct constriction in my throat, like I am swallowing (but I am not). I tried to mindfully sit up a bit straighter, thinking "is this some chakra thing?". The sensation remained, and a coldness spread down from my neck, and then dissipated.

Some time after that, I noted an "expansion". Previously, I had often noted contractions, bearing down. But this was distinctly in the other direction, and my arms felt very, very light. I was breathing slowly, lightly, and easily, and I felt calm and undistracted. But I also deliberately noted these feelings and sensations, rather than just hang out. The timer ran out while I persisted in this state.

"...my arms felt very, very light. I was breathing slowly, lightly, and easily, and I felt calm and undistracted."-Tomotvos

Very nice, Tomo. That was a taste of jhana. Not yet sure which one.

Kenneth

A 30m sit this morning, where I resolved to not manipulate the experience at all. Sitting with breath counting first, then just noting the abdomen, quickly got to small raptures. Noticing, lately, that raptures are not as intense, maybe because I am just noting and moving on? I found myself back at the "light arms" state. Features include: light arms, quick noting and dismissal of thoughts, body sensations mostly internal as opposed to external, very aware of sounds (including the "sound of silence"). Not willing it to be so, but it did feel like a "place". Feeling still, but not still, as I could note small tremors, and the breath of course.

When bell finally rang, I found it very hard to unwind from this, like I was far away. I felt this last night too and actually tried to turn off my phone alarm and keep going, but that intent and movement kind of pricked the bubble. So this time I just mentally worked my way back, and it did require effort while I kept my eyes closed. Opening my eyes fast-tracked the return.

"A 30m sit this morning, where I resolved to not manipulate the experience at all. Sitting with breath counting first, then just noting the abdomen, quickly got to small raptures. Noticing, lately, that raptures are not as intense, maybe because I am just noting and moving on? I found myself back at the "light arms" state. Features include: light arms, quick noting and dismissal of thoughts, body sensations mostly internal as opposed to external, very aware of sounds (including the "sound of silence"). Not willing it to be so, but it did feel like a "place". Feeling still, but not still, as I could note small tremors, and the breath of course."

Great report, Tom! Your descriptions are crystal clear.

Sounds to me like jhanas 1 and 2, and perhaps leaning somewhat toward on the vipassana jhana side of things. Same strata, just further over on the vibratory spectrum than hard absorption jhana.

Quickly shifting into "small raptures" sounds like first jhana to me. In Kenneth's description of first jhana on the Deeper Into Jhana* he says, "1st jhana has subtle exhilaration, deep joy, chilled out bliss, and equanimity." Might these small raptures be described as "subtle exhilaration"?

If so, when that subtle exhilaration drops the remaining four factors remain in the 2nd jhana, "deep joy, chilled out bliss, and equanimity." Your description of the "light arms" state is also A&P stage like, in that you experienced, "quick noting and dismissal of thoughts..." Noting is effortless in the A&P stage, which happens at the same stratum as the second samatha jhana.

Just some food for thought. Thanks again for sharing.

~Jackson

*http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Deeper+Into+Jhana

Another 60m sit tonight, featuring many of the same characteristics as earlier. Rapid access to a concentrated state (tingling scalp then balloon sensation in head), followed by near continuous but not extreme rapture waves. Thoughts coming and going. Breath constant and easy, no labour there. Familiar cold sweep from left neck down across torso well into the sit (but I have yet to precisely landmark this).

Eventually I got back (third sit in a row) to the "light arm" state. As before, I seem super concentrated/focused, and yet fully aware of everything around me. Checking the various sense gates, I don't really see anything, I feel tiny vibrations in my body, taste nothing, smell nothing, hear everything, and not really thinking about anything. For hearing, I seem hyper-aware. I can hear a plane go by, and the hum of the ventilation system, but most of all, the "sound of silence" which is very, very loud. Like cicadas in my head, I focus on that and my breath at the same time, and then I get a sensation of being pulled by my head, stretched tall and thin. My body is very taut, but paradoxically at ease. I then kind of visualize a long, flat, thin, pointed thing, like the edge of a knife -- it is sort of rotating in front of me -- and I sense myself as like that.

Even though it is a loaded term, "one-pointed" is a very, very apt description, and I feel as though I can maintain that state for a long time. Or until the bell rings, which it does.

Crazy.

Nice job, jhana-meister. Any advice for the anxiety-ridden Tomo of a few weeks ago?

Whee!!

"Nice job, jhana-meister. Any advice for the anxiety-ridden Tomo of a few weeks ago?

"

Well, to that Tomo (and to all those riveted by these missives), I guess I would say that patience and perseverance will eventually yield some fruit.

But the question remains: what am I a meister of? I know Jackson didn't mean it this way, but reading his post made me feel a bit like I was being told I was on Baltic Ave. when I thought I was at Marvin Gardens. If we are talking samatha, and not vipassana, jhanas, I would say (humbly) that this is the fourth, the lack of anything distinctive in this "place" beyond the one-pointedness being the tell, as all the bliss and rapture, and effort, have been shed. But of course, that is where I *want* to be, so that clearly colours my analysis. And IF that is correct, how can I extricate myself so that I am in the fourth *vipassana* jhana, and at what point would I do that?

Another 30m this morning, where the experience was not very different from last morning's. When I got to "that place", my sensation of light arms was not as light and I clearly did not go as deep because when the bell rang it was not quite as large an effort to get out. And equally clearly, I need more sitting time to settle into that state as hard as I apparently did last night, if that is a state I want to repeat (if only to move through to the other side).

"Well, to that Tomo (and to all those riveted by these missives), I guess I would say that patience and perseverance will eventually yield some fruit.

But the question remains: what am I a meister of? I know Jackson didn't mean it this way, but reading his post made me feel a bit like I was being told I was on Baltic Ave. when I thought I was at Marvin Gardens. If we are talking samatha, and not vipassana, jhanas, I would say (humbly) that this is the fourth, the lack of anything distinctive in this "place" beyond the one-pointedness being the tell, as all the bliss and rapture, and effort, have been shed. But of course, that is where I *want* to be, so that clearly colours my analysis. And IF that is correct, how can I extricate myself so that I am in the fourth *vipassana* jhana, and at what point would I do that?"

Hi Tomo,

It's quite possible that I'm misreading your practice. I often fancy myself to be a budding dharma diagnostician, but do have a habit of shooting first and asking questions later. I apologize if any of my comments were discouraging. I'll be more thoughtful in the future.

I'll revert to Kenneth for future analysis of your current jhana experience. We'll get to the bottom of this, so that you can get to Marvin Gardens and beyond (if you're not already there).

~Jackson

"It's quite possible that I'm misreading your practice. I often fancy myself to be a budding dharma diagnostician, but do have a habit of shooting first and asking questions later. I apologize if any of my comments were discouraging. I'll be more thoughtful in the future.

I'll revert to Kenneth for future analysis of your current jhana experience. We'll get to the bottom of this, so that you can get to Marvin Gardens and beyond (if you're not already there)."

No apology necessary. I debated saying anything at all, and I did not mean to be indelicate (I was just about to forewarn you on FB but you replied too quickly...get to work!). I HUGELY appreciate your advice, and hope you don't hold back.

"No apology necessary. I debated saying anything at all, and I did not mean to be indelicate (I was just about to forewarn you on FB but you replied too quickly...get to work!). I HUGELY appreciate your advice, and hope you don't hold back."

Haha! "get to work!" that kills me

You weren't indelicate at all. I appreciate how tactfully you brought it up.

This Team Sport Enlightenment stuff is very much like a dialectic. That's what is so great about talking this stuff out in the forums. We all benefit from these discussions; even the one's where a natural re-focusing is taking place.

I really enjoy reading this thread, and will continue to comment when I feel I might have something valuable to add. But I hope you don't ever feel that you can't correct me when feel I (or anyone else) may have misinterpreted your descriptions.

All is well. Back to Tomo's regularly scheduled practice notes.

~Jackson