Laurel's Practice

NOTE: There seem to be about 20 missing posts here, so I'll fill in with a summary. I spent a 4-day retreat in high equanimity, had a couple of near misses. Then on Jan 4 I had surgery on my hand for thumb joint arthritis. It threw me for a loop; the recovery was difficult. At the point just before where these posts pick up again I'd had a panic attack when my enclosed thumb started to itch and I realized I couldn't get at it. I googled "cast claustrophobia" and found out that, while not common, this kind of reaction is not unheard of. The level of fear involved was greater than anything I'd ever experienced before. Bleh. So in post 422 I express what I took away from that experience.

Stream entry is right around the corner, about 10 days off, only at this point I didn't yet know it. Stay tuned . . .

PostId: 41807635
Number: 421
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/8/2012 9:48:00 PM
EditDate: 1/8/2012 9:48:00 PM

Sorry to hear about your hand, Laurel. Here's to a quick recovery!

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PostId: 41818492
Number: 422
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/10/2012 10:03:00 AM
EditDate: 1/10/2012 10:03:00 AM

Thanks, Joel; giragirasol, I know you're right.

I'm beginning to understand the difference between insight on the one hand and just knowing about stuff on the other. Jack Kornfield, in chap 1 of A Path With Heart, advises psychiatrists to meditate so they'll have deeper insight into some of what their patients experience. I am not a psychiatrist, but I am finally getting it. I thought I knew what the hell regions were like; now I do know. And I thought I understood helplessness, but now, being on such a deeply concentrated state coming off the retreat and then going into surgery--probably not a good idea!--I am really getting it.

Most of my meditation practice these days happens at night when I can't sleep. I must have done at least two hours of loving kindness for myself and all beings last night, then about half an hour of anapanasati, but couldn't get really concentrated lying in bed. I do a lot more walking meditation these days. Sat and did noting for about half an hour at around 4:00 this morning. Slept very little. I am hoping to get past this pattern soon.

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PostId: 41822075
Number: 423
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/10/2012 7:15:00 PM
EditDate: 1/10/2012 7:15:00 PM

40 min sit late afternoon, got settled, began noting, sleepiness and dream stuff for awhile. About 25 mins in the phone rang, which had the advantage of waking me up. Resumed noting in earnest, right leg repeatedly would tense up and then release. Mild kriyas, shaking. Focused on hands at one point, noted that the hand encased in the bandage and splint felt exactly the same as the other hand. Didn't make a drama out of this but noted reassurance.

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PostId: 41826754
Number: 424
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/11/2012 8:55:00 AM
EditDate: 1/11/2012 8:55:00 AM

30 min anapanasati last night, took forever to get settled at all but eventually did. Went to bed, maintaining jhana, then did metta practice. Working throughout on cultivating and developing bliss. Felt tingling sensation like fizzy water through the top of my head, eventually fell asleep. Good night overall, no panic or nightmares.

a.m.: about 20 min walking meditation, followed by gentle movement. Am learning how to work more mindfully with walking meditation. Some papanchas going on causing stress, looking to bypass them.

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PostId: 41834705
Number: 425
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/12/2012 9:33:00 AM
EditDate: 1/12/2012 9:33:00 AM

My sleep seems to be stabilizing--halleluia! I had a 40-min noting session last night that about halfway in broke out in kriyas. Seems to be happening a lot lately. They got pretty exaggerated as time went on to the point of discomfort, especially as I had been hoping for the soothing vibrations of equanimity. I haven't had a sit like that (eq) since the surgery. Oh well.

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PostId: 41851592
Number: 426
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/14/2012 10:20:00 AM
EditDate: 1/14/2012 10:20:00 AM

Thursday night: couldn't sleep to save my life; had done samatha before going to bed and loving kindness in bed, but then woke up in the middle of the night. Ended up reading. The concentration practice took awhile to settle but eventually did, although the concentration broke up after awhile. I think I was experiencing anxiety about my visit to the doctor yesterday to look at my hand. He was perfectly okay with leaving me in a splint; I was so relieved I cried. Was tempted to feel like an idiot and suppress the tears, but bypassed the inner scold and went with the reaction.

I had had a rotten day Thursday, actually, with a nasty conflict in the department bothering me all day. After awhile, yesterday, I was able to identify what had led to the unhappiness. There was a lot of talking involved and thinking. So finally, last evening, I began wondering about my ability to see the 3 C's in everything. I thought, I can see the first two, but the no-self is eluding me. Then suddenly I went through a list in my mind of the ways I've been self-ing for the past few days, beginning each statement with "I" and then eventually asking, who or what is this "I"? It was a clarifying moment. All the drama dropped away.

PostId: 41851623
Number: 427
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/14/2012 10:25:00 AM
EditDate: 1/14/2012 10:25:00 AM

This body-mind then went and sat for about an hour, and got equanimity pretty quickly. It was like watching a lot of phenomena rise and pass away in rapid motion without attaching to any of it. There was no desire to move or stop or do anything to change any of it. I noted for awhile but eventually dropped it because things were happening too fast. Eventually I had to get up and say goodnight to my son, then go to bed, where I kept on noting. After the interruption I found that I was back in the 3 C's with itching all over the face, thinking oh great, that's just perfect. Noted diligently for about 45 minutes and then went to sleep.

This morning: 55 minutes of eq. on the cushion, followed by 25 minutes of walking meditation. Am resolved to note as much as possible off cushion today.

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PostId: 41852522
Number: 428
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 1/14/2012 12:06:00 PM
EditDate: 1/14/2012 12:06:00 PM

I think that's excellent when you can catch that desire to change what's being experienced (ie wanting to cry but the "inner scold" trying to stop it, for example). Who is it who is so busy always wanting to change what's actually going on right now?

Just to note, I have had many periods of sleep disruption during times I was meditating intensively. When getting up and writing wasn't an option, I would either just meditate laying there in bed or I would listen to podcasts with headphones, which didn't disturb others in the house. The downside of that was I now instantly fall asleep any time I put a podcast on. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

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PostId: 41884835
Number: 429
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/17/2012 10:31:00 AM
EditDate: 1/17/2012 10:31:00 AM

It seems that whenever I begin to get to something that might be high equanimity, the hindrances lash back at me. This time I had a couple of sessions that were almost like jhanas, they were so peaceful and effortless. Then I got reading some postings over on DhO describing the experience of advanced level yogis and I panicked. It's as if I want all my old stupid stuff back; I am afraid of the unknown, of having no center, whatever. I am trying now to keep my attention fixed on what's directly in front of me. But I had about a day in which I noted off cushion but didn't do too much actual sitting. I just have to make a resolve not to fall for this again.

Last night, had about half an hour, but gave up in disgust before the timer went off. My asthma was driving me nuts and I couldn't quit coughing. Then I had insomnia, got up at about 3:00 and meditated for two hours, beginning with an hour sit, then half an hour walking, than another half hour sit. Was not quite as settled as I have been at my deepest point but got into eq. Off cushion, though, I'm a mess. There's a vexatious situation at work and I'm allowing it to get to me. Right now I'm feeling anxiety and anger. I have taken some action in the situation but have no idea what the fallout will be. My morale is low and I want to do something about it. I feel constrained and frustrated. These thoughts don't dominate my meditation, but they tend to become troublesome in daily life.

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PostId: 41885050
Number: 430
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jwhooper
CreationDate: 1/17/2012 11:31:00 AM
EditDate: 1/17/2012 11:31:00 AM

Sometimes Shinzen Young's Focus Positive can give me a lift when I am having to deal with a lot of interpersonal stuff: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Focus%...Positive-Summary.pdf "> www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Readin ... ummary.pdf

PostId: 41885218
Number: 431
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/17/2012 12:09:00 PM
EditDate: 1/17/2012 12:09:00 PM

Thanks for the tip. I've printed out a copy and will keep it on hand for easy reference.

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PostId: 41893909
Number: 432
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/18/2012 9:23:00 AM
EditDate: 1/18/2012 9:23:00 AM

Half hour last night, 40 minutes this morning. In both cases reached low eq., mild vibrations, slippery mind. This morning I took a long time getting settled b/c my asthma was acting up and I kept coughing. Eventually reset the timer and everything was fine.

Today: keeping up the momentum with mindfulness. I have begun to see this as a default way of being. I don't actually do a lot of noting, although I do some, but I am disembedding from the thought loops and the dwelling in the past or future. I note when I find myself reverting to those things. The challenge is keeping at it when I am actually working.

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PostId: 41894036
Number: 433
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/18/2012 10:12:00 AM
EditDate: 1/18/2012 10:14:00 AM

&quot;Off cushion, though, I'm a mess. There's a vexatious situation at work and I'm allowing it to get to me. Right now I'm feeling anxiety and anger. I have taken some action in the situation but have no idea what the fallout will be. My morale is low and I want to do something about it. I feel constrained and frustrated. These thoughts don't dominate my meditation, but they tend to become troublesome in daily life. &quot;

Hi Laurel. Your diligent practice through all of this is inspiring. Ever read Kenneth's exercise &quot;the toll booth&quot;? I always find it really helpful when I can remember it:
KF:
&quot;This exercise is inspired by a comment that Adyashanti made in one of his talks. He said that once you discover this simple, direct, awake way of being in the world, you would like to be able to live this way instead of just lucking into it now and again. You *can* learn to live in it, he said, but there is a price. The price is simply all your resentment, all your fear, all your anxiety, all your stress, all your manic joy, etc; you have to give over all of that in this moment in return for peace.

I think of this as a toll booth. Anytime I am suffering, a man appears in front of me with his toll booth. &quot;Hand it over,&quot; he says. At that moment, it is as if a gold coin magically appears in my pocket; my anxiety IS the currency in question! All I have to do is hand it over. This is the best value in town! I happily hand over the gold coin and smile. In return, I get peace.&quot;

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PostId: 41894159
Number: 434
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/18/2012 10:38:00 AM
EditDate: 1/18/2012 10:38:00 AM

Thanks, Joel. I've also been thinking about the hot coal analogy--it's time to drop it!

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PostId: 41894289
Number: 435
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/18/2012 11:09:00 AM
EditDate: 1/18/2012 11:09:00 AM

Always easier said than done, of course!

PostId: 41894648
Number: 436
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 1/18/2012 12:28:00 PM
EditDate: 1/18/2012 12:28:00 PM

The tollbooth is a clever tool. I just recalled, one thing I used to do when severely distracted (on or off the cushion) by anxieties and such was to remind myself: &quot;You can think about that later.&quot; Which has a similar effect as handing the thought to the tollbooth man.

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PostId: 41902977
Number: 437
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/19/2012 8:31:00 AM
EditDate: 1/19/2012 8:31:00 AM

1 hour this morning. Began with lots of coughing, decided to note the sensations of irritation in the throat with as much diligence and attention as I could muster. Kept coming back to &quot;irritation,&quot; investigated it--does it change? pulse? move around? Noted ringing in ears, went back and forth between that sound and the sensation in the throat, plus congestion, breathing, and any thoughts that came up (not much space for thoughts). Didn't really settle into anything for about half an hour, but eventually got a deeper peace and mild vibrations. Felt familiar, melted into it, noted in a relaxed way. There was a period in which thoughts flickered through the mind in very rapid succession, none of them sticking. Then the sense of peace deepened, and felt a stronger pulsing of vibrations. Kept this up for awhile until the timer went off, sat for about 5 minutes after the timer.

After that did about 15 minutes of walking meditation. My mind gradually became more active, began thinking about my path so far, its twists and turns, its progress and points of regression. I feel that I finally understand what my own peculiar hindrances have been; but now I'm prepared to let this thing unfold without getting in the way. The key at this point is momentum. Joel's attainment has given me hope. This is doable. There is nothing and no one, on or off the cushion, that has the power to prevent it. Thanks, everyone!

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PostId: 41903132
Number: 438
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: andymr
CreationDate: 1/19/2012 9:45:00 AM
EditDate: 1/19/2012 9:45:00 AM

Nice.

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PostId: 41903344
Number: 439
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Marc_R
CreationDate: 1/19/2012 10:59:00 AM
EditDate: 1/19/2012 10:59:00 AM

Hi Laurel, I just wanted to let you know that your determination and honesty are very inspiring to me, so thank you for that. We can do it!

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PostId: 41907710
Number: 440
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/19/2012 9:34:00 PM
EditDate: 1/19/2012 9:34:00 PM

Thank you both, Andy and Marc, for the encouragement. This site is worth its weight in gold--if cyber-space weighs anything . . . oh well, it's just an expression <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

50 mins. Began with settling on the breath, 3x10, then noting. Itches, an ache in my hand where I had the surgery, throbbing and pulsing. I went back and forth between the ache and the itch as fast as I could, threw in the ear-ringing for good measure, when the itch subsided found another sensation and ping-ponged around the body with it pretty fast, all sensations vibrating. I noted a few thoughts after awhile, other sounds, then fell into a bit of dreaminess and sleepy feeling. Eventually felt vibrations over the top part of the body, still dreamy. Then suddenly the feet and legs started with obvious, clear vibrations, and bliss wave after bliss wave passed over me from the top down. This continued for awhile, then I began to experience an intensification and acceleration of pace, my heartbeat was speeding up, and I eventually felt myself breathing out my mouth as if I were out of breath. The visual field was in motion, my body seemed to be warmer and warmer, everything moving. There was a kind of rush and then things eased up, slowed down, cooled off. Heartbeat and breath returned to normal. Timer eventually went off, then my family came home, but I'm still a little spacey.

PostId: 41908263
Number: 441
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: andymr
CreationDate: 1/19/2012 10:26:00 PM
EditDate: 1/19/2012 10:26:00 PM

I'm not a doctor, but you mIght consider taking the day off tomorrow on account of how you're probably going to feel.

<!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

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PostId: 41910098
Number: 442
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/20/2012 8:28:00 AM
EditDate: 1/20/2012 8:28:00 AM

Hm. Well I am kind of wondering--so far I feel normal but still a bit spacey. Meditated for about half an hour in bed later last night, got back to the absorption in vibrations, then couldn't sleep so read a book for awhile, but had no taste for it. Eventually got sleepy, during the night had some intense dreams but nothing like the nightmares of recent weeks.

Just did 55 minutes sitting, about 10 minutes walking. Had trouble settling, lots of &quot;sticky&quot; thoughts that weren't disturbing, just persistent. This pattern persisted for what felt like a long time. Eventually felt the gentle vibrations and the slippery mind, then the more pronounced vibrations that took over the whole body. Didn't have the buildup of last night.

I don't really know what happened last night; I'm waiting to find out. I do feel as if part of the center of &quot;me&quot; has gone away; thoughts and sensations are happening, but &quot;I&quot; am not generating them. It will be interesting to see how the day goes. I will keep you posted. Thanks, Andy.

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PostId: 41910426
Number: 443
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 1/20/2012 10:19:00 AM
EditDate: 1/20/2012 10:19:00 AM

It does sound promising.... and definitely cool, regardless! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Watching this space....

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PostId: 41910783
Number: 444
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Aquanin
CreationDate: 1/20/2012 11:44:00 AM
EditDate: 1/20/2012 11:44:00 AM

Watching this. Great job regarless! I am impressed by your ability to rebound after your surgery. Go back and read those posts right afterwards and now read these latest ones. Huge inspiration!

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PostId: 41918880
Number: 445
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 12:48:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 12:48:00 AM

Okay, so I've been a bit disoriented today, have been functioning normally nonetheless. I meditated briefly mid-morning and felt tingling, especially in the third eye. Then this evening I settled in for some samatha. It was like turning over the ignition on a Ferrari; all of a sudden the engine roared into gear. I was sitting through waves of rushing vibrations, tingling, and bliss that just kept coming at me. It was a bit like walking outside after having one's pupils dilated at the optometrist's office, almost too much to be pleasant. I've had feelings of fear, euphoria, doubt, confusion and whatnot, but not sure what to make of it. I'm sort of tired--spacey tired--but not exactly sleepy. Not sure who I am at the moment. That's about all I can say for now.

PostId: 41919033
Number: 446
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: orasis
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 1:13:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 1:13:00 AM

&quot;Not sure who I am at the moment.&quot;

Thats odd...seems to be contagious around here... <!-- s:-P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt="" title="Razz" /><!-- s:-P -->

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PostId: 41919067
Number: 447
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 1:17:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 1:17:00 AM

&quot;Thats odd...seems to be contagious around here... <!-- s:-P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt="" title="Razz" /><!-- s:-P -->&quot;

&amp;lt;smile&amp;gt;

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PostId: 41919983
Number: 448
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Antero.
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 4:40:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 4:40:00 AM

&quot;Then this evening I settled in for some samatha. It was like turning over the ignition on a Ferrari; all of a sudden the engine roared into gear. I was sitting through waves of rushing vibrations, tingling, and bliss that just kept coming at me. &quot;

Enjoy your Ferrari Laurel, you have definitely earned it!

<!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

Mudita

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PostId: 41920218
Number: 449
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 6:22:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 6:22:00 AM

Sounds like stream entry, Laurel. Congratulations and welcome to the club.

Kenneth

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PostId: 41920251
Number: 450
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: PEJN
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 6:49:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 6:49:00 AM

Congrats Laurel, well deserved!

PostId: 41920302
Number: 451
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Marc_R
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 7:24:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 7:24:00 AM

Great! Congratulations!

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PostId: 41920368
Number: 452
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: nadavspi
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 7:50:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 7:50:00 AM

Nice! That sounds very promising.

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PostId: 41920539
Number: 453
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: someguy77
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 8:46:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 8:46:00 AM

Amazing. I love waking up to see who got enlightened today. This forum is incredible. Good job, Laurel.

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PostId: 41921133
Number: 454
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: RonCrouch
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 10:19:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 10:19:00 AM

Whoo hoo! Aloha Laurel! Thanks so much for keeping a journal and sharing this with everyone. Such an inspiration.

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PostId: 41921420
Number: 455
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 10:57:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 10:57:00 AM


Congrats, Laurel! Keep us posted on what happens next.

PostId: 41921618
Number: 456
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 11:30:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 11:30:00 AM

&quot;I've had feelings of fear, euphoria, doubt, confusion and whatnot, but not sure what to make of it&quot;

Ditto!

Congratulations Laurel <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 41921660
Number: 457
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: BethResnickFolk
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 11:36:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 11:36:00 AM

Congratulations, Laurel! And congratulations to the community who supported her! Laurel, you did so great! Enjoy having a little less you! It's can be pretty fun; although it can take some getting used to.

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PostId: 41921677
Number: 458
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Aquanin
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 11:38:00 AM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 11:44:00 AM

Wow, congrats!! Inspirational for sure! I would love to hear your experiences with your anxiety post stream entry since I seem to experience a lot of what you have been experiencing.

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PostId: 41922138
Number: 459
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 12:44:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 12:44:00 PM

Well done Laurel. This is fantastic news!

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PostId: 41923859
Number: 460
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: B.Rice
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 3:28:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 3:28:00 PM

Congratulations, enjoy not having to carry around so much silliness!

PostId: 41924469
Number: 461
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 4:28:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 4:28:00 PM

All I can say is... yay!!

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PostId: 41925101
Number: 462
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 5:23:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 5:23:00 PM

Yes; it's about time. I am trying to adjust to this new situation. I wish I could say my anxiety is gone, but I've had quite a lot of it, probably resulting from feeling so disoriented. Sits have been overwhelming, as if my blood has been replaced by champagne, and I can't stand it for too long at a stretch. Right now I feel calm and peaceful, though, feeling that there's nowhere to be and everything's fine. But earlier today I was confused and a bit agitated.

I went to a meditation meeting at the local center and spoke to the teacher. He does not like attaching labels such as stream entry to what happened, but he does see it as a significant opening, and recognizes that I have been experiencing a sense of loss of myself. I have actually felt some sadness about this. I've tended to try to censor these emotions, thinking perversely that if I'm not feeling fantastic then that must mean that this isn't real, but I've also recognized just how silly this is (yes, there's plenty of silliness left here!). Beth has emailed me to say that these reactions are normal. I guess I've been driving an old Ford Pinto for so long that a Ferrari is a bit overwhelming <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

So I'm letting myself relax into this and waiting to see what happens as it unfolds. I am curious to see what the long-term changes will be. There definitely is a sense, though, that part of &quot;me&quot; is gone. What I want to do is fill up this hollowed-out space with love and peace and willingness and appreciation, sympathetic joy, the divine abidings.

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PostId: 41927654
Number: 463
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: mpavoreal
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 8:54:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 8:54:00 PM

Awesome, congratulations!

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PostId: 41928919
Number: 464
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: NikolaiStephenHalay
CreationDate: 1/21/2012 10:33:00 PM
EditDate: 1/21/2012 10:33:00 PM

plop.

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PostId: 41931861
Number: 465
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/22/2012 7:01:00 AM
EditDate: 1/22/2012 7:04:00 AM

Hehe-yes, plop. And thanks again, everyone, for your support.

Less active sit this morning, still some tingling. Started out doing some noting, which isn't really working all that well for me these days. I do better when I just focus on the breath, have been doing that at the nostrils. Some tendency to try to overthink things, which is my habit from the old days.

I tend to wake up in the fear nyana, unfortunately, and during the day yesterday and the day before I had periodic experience of mild nausea. So things keep cycling, whether I'm sitting or not.

PostId: 41932270
Number: 466
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/22/2012 9:29:00 AM
EditDate: 1/22/2012 9:29:00 AM

Awesome, Laurel! Congrats!!!

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PostId: 41932898
Number: 467
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 1/22/2012 10:54:00 AM
EditDate: 1/22/2012 10:54:00 AM

Way to go Laurel.

It takes a while for the anxiety to ease up. I've only been at this a few years but the difference is incredible.

Keep on keeping on!

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PostId: 41934802
Number: 468
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/22/2012 1:55:00 PM
EditDate: 1/22/2012 1:55:00 PM

Thanks Joel; and Mu, this is good news indeed. I go through a lot of mood swings; mornings are difficult, but I get calmer as the day goes on. Morning sits are also notably less interesting than anything after mid-morning, which is full of the champagne tingling stuff. As for the mood swings: I just watch stuff happen, no one else has a clue. It's like the weather. It's also very rapid.

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PostId: 41944862
Number: 469
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 1/23/2012 4:01:00 AM
EditDate: 1/23/2012 4:01:00 AM

I'm very happy for you, Laurel.

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PostId: 41945276
Number: 470
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/23/2012 7:16:00 AM
EditDate: 1/23/2012 7:16:00 AM

&quot;There definitely is a sense, though, that part of &quot;me&quot; is gone. What I want to do is fill up this hollowed-out space with love and peace and willingness and appreciation, sympathetic joy, the divine abidings. &quot;

This is great!

PostId: 41954070
Number: 471
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 7:49:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 7:51:00 AM

Thanks again for all your kind words. I'm in the process now of trying to integrate these changes that have affected me so profoundly. I access A&amp;P type energy the minute I close my eyes and start to focus, but I don't feel much like meditating. I don't know what that means; I'll talk to Beth later today and report back. I would really love to do some jhana practice, but my cycling starts no matter what I do and I just have to go with that. I can't sleep a whole lot, but I seem to be alert enough with reduced sleep.

The odd thing is, I'm scheduled to go on another retreat Friday. I imagine it sounds as if I spend a good part of my life on retreat, but the schedule I've had the past month is unusual. I will need some advice from Beth on how to manage long days of practice right now.

One additional point: mornings are difficult. When I practice in the morning, in fact, I don't have the same experience I do at any other time of the day. I also tend to wake up feeling anxiety, although it isn't attached to anything in particular. In general I think the best thing I could do is get some vigorous exercise. It's tough doing that with bad weather outside and a hand that's all bandaged up from surgery. But I'm going to have to find a solution.

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PostId: 41954201
Number: 472
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 8:15:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 8:18:00 AM


Laurel, I think this morning phenomenon is probably chemical/biological. Someone once told me that when we wake up we get a shot of adrenaline. I notice a lot of thoughts happen just after I wake up in the morning as the body is energizing. I think it's pretty common and something we can work around better knowing the physiology of it. Also, the transition from a sleep state to a waking state is very stark and it takes some time for mind to adjust.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol_awakening_response "> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol_a ... g_response

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PostId: 41954242
Number: 473
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 8:27:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 8:27:00 AM

Thanks Chris - that explains a lot.

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PostId: 41954246
Number: 474
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 8:30:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 8:30:00 AM


Yeah, thanks, mumuwu. I always wondered why the morning was the one time I kept having &quot;scrambled eggs&quot; up there until someone clued me in in this little fact <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

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PostId: 41954530
Number: 475
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Aquanin
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 10:17:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 10:17:00 AM

Hah. I just posted about this same thing in my journal. Thanks for the link. Maybe I will wander around for 30 minutes or shower before sitting in the morning now.

PostId: 41954696
Number: 476
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 11:07:00 AM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 11:07:00 AM

My significant other uses the morning adrenaline to do house cleaning or yoga. I tend to prefer going for a brisk walk or sorting through papers and writing my to-do lists to prepare for the day ahead. I've never been a big fan of meditating straight out of bed, but tend to do my first sit after the aforementioned and a cup of coffee or juice. Of course work schedules can make this complicated. My SO does his &quot;morning&quot; meditation during the natural waking that often occurs around 3am, and then goes back to sleep until time to get up for work at 7am.

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PostId: 41955025
Number: 477
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 1/24/2012 12:19:00 PM
EditDate: 1/24/2012 12:19:00 PM

Another common cause of poor sleep and overall cortisol dysregulation--chronic cardio. So don't get too much exercise, Laurel! <!-- s:-D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:-D -->

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PostId: 41973395
Number: 478
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 1/26/2012 5:44:00 PM
EditDate: 1/26/2012 5:44:00 PM

This discussion has been helpful, and it explains a lot, as mu says.

My sits have been variable; haven't done longer than 30 minutes, but the out-of-control quality of a few days ago seems to have settled down. I sat for half an hour yesterday morning and again in the later afternoon; the morning ended up in what felt like low eq, as did the afternoon one (lots of dreaminess there; I almost fell asleep. I can feel tingling just by closing my eyes and focusing for a minute or two usually.

Tomorrow I head off for the retreat. I'll check in when I get back.

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PostId: 41975273
Number: 479
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: villum
CreationDate: 1/26/2012 8:29:00 PM
EditDate: 1/26/2012 8:29:00 PM


Sounds a bit like some of my review experiences, Laurel. I found it useful to spend some time just sitting doing nothing during those periods, and observe the phenomena as they occur, as there seemed to be quite enough activity without me doing anything, and it helped me get a better look at the insight cycles.

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PostId: 41977812
Number: 480
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: AndyW45
CreationDate: 1/27/2012 4:23:00 AM
EditDate: 1/27/2012 4:23:00 AM

Hi Laurel,

I heard the exciting news from Beth yesterday. Sorry for missing it hear. Anyway, huge congratulations! And good luck with the retreat.

Metta
Andy

PostId: 42031734
Number: 481
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 2/1/2012 11:23:00 PM
EditDate: 2/1/2012 11:26:00 PM

This is the last time I plan to post on this thread; future posts will be on a new one.

I have been a bit reticent about saying this, but for about 8 days after my major breakthrough on Jan 19 I walked around with a profoundly reduced sense of self, and it felt awful. There were benefits in the form of no anger or even irritation, a loss of the usual self-reinforcing stories in my head, and a lack of stickiness in my relationships with people. But I felt fearful and very, very alone a lot of the time. It was as if other people were part of some separate reality and I had no access to it any more. Instead of feeling a sense of freedom from this experience, I felt a sense of a lack of energy, of pointlessness, almost as if I had already died and was waiting for the fact to register.

I talked with three people about this: Beth, my teacher here, and the teacher at the retreat. All of them told me this would pass, and it has. I seem to be back, but I'm rather bewildered by what has happened. My retreat teacher said it might take a matter of months to sort the whole thing out. Both she and my teacher here don't know my practice well enough to say this was stream entry, but beyond that, they seem to disapprove of the whole idea of labeling such an attainment. This is frustrating because it really does matter in the sense that if I have gotten stream entry then I'm probably on track to start a new path, and quite frankly I don't want to do that. I want to slow this whole thing way, way down. My biggest concern is that I might land in the state I was in last week again and not be able to emerge from it.

I had thought loss of self would be a relief, but it turned out to be miserably lonely. I am not sure how to describe what happened--was it a long cessation? Is it normal? If other people experienced what I did, I can't imagine they would encourage anyone else to get there.

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PostId: 42031835
Number: 482
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 2/1/2012 11:38:00 PM
EditDate: 2/1/2012 11:38:00 PM

There's this annoying writer Jed McKenna who made the comment that it's impossible for &quot;you&quot; to want enlightenment, because if you get it, &quot;you&quot; will no longer be there to enjoy it. It sounds like a lot of wordplay, but for those 8 days I understood exactly what he meant. It was uncanny. There were moments when I would drop into a kind of calm acceptance and everything would be all right, but as time went on I had to confess that I had a serious case of buyer's remorse.

One thing I have to consider is that this practice is just not right for me. I may not have the nervous system for it. I imagine that I come across to some people as a drama queen, but the fact is I was not expecting this outcome or reaction--and to be fair, the &quot;outcome&quot; hasn't played itself out by any means. But the teacher I worked with over the past five days, a perfect example of mushroom culture, made the remark that too much depth in practice without breadth can have warped results. I don't think that's true of others necessarily, but it may be true for me.

I find the almost total disconnect between pragmatic dharma and the rest of western Buddhism to be frustrating. It seems that each side could actually benefit from some kind of open dialogue with the other. But from what I gather, this particular teacher isn't really trying to offer a path to enlightenment at all; I think she's trying to help people cultivate mindfulness in order to help them with their lives in a gradual, gentle process. The reticence about discussing attainments, together with the jet-set retreat setting (with a teacher who will likely never see me again) does not lend itself to the kind of communication that's really necessary to sort out something like this.

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PostId: 42031893
Number: 483
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: WF566163
CreationDate: 2/1/2012 11:46:00 PM
EditDate: 2/1/2012 11:46:00 PM

Hello,

I experienced something very similar. I had this romanticized idea that stream entry was going to solve my problems, but it didn't and the loss of the sense of a stable self was very disorienting. I remember feeling like I had been duped into believing this whole thing was great when the experience of it was somewhat terrifying at certain points and somewhat blissful at others. Your description is very similar to my own experience, it's kind of eerie. I remember telling my teacher that I felt like I was at the funeral of a tortured best friend. Yes, it was nice that the pain wasn't continuing in the way it was before, but damn, it was sad that they were gone. If your experience continues in the way mine did it will get much better. I think you are right to mention this grieving. I think it is very common and that people don't mention it much, perhaps because they feel like they should be enjoying their new &quot;attainment&quot;. Everything changes, is always changing, and this too will pass. My guess is that you will know a new freedom when it does. This continues be my experience. Shift, elation, then grief, then deeper depths of freedom. Sometimes the grieving comes first. The more it's happened the more I recognize it for what it is and don't become preoccupied. I seem to be in a similar stage now myself. In the interest of slowing down you may want to cut back or not sit for a week or so. Be well.

Bill

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PostId: 42031974
Number: 484
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 2/1/2012 11:56:00 PM
EditDate: 2/1/2012 11:56:00 PM

I do plan to talk with Beth, and with my local teacher. I need a sense of how to proceed. I am at present strongly inclined however to avoid anything goal-directed in the foreseeable future. I want to round things out and stabilize. My Dark Night was miserable. I'm not trying to brag about it and say look at me, see how I've suffered, but it was awful and I'm in no mood for another trip through that place. I realize that I can't ignore fear, misery, and disgust, but I can make a point of gently nudging these emotions in a spirit of friendly inquiry from now on.

Strangely enough, speaking from where I am right here at this moment, I have to say that I am beginning to feel some peace. It's as if I'm finally resigning from the job of struggling to fix myself after all these years. I'm also beginning to think that maybe it's best just to stop, take a leisurely look around, and just observe the way things are. I don't think I would be here if I had not taken this route, either--it has propelled me in a way that the mushroom culture never would have done. I could even consider that I might need both approaches, each at different times. It may be that there is less contradiction than complementarity between them. But I can't say for sure that that's the case.

One other thing: I don't think one's &quot;stuff&quot; can ever be divorced from this practice, because insight brings one face to face with it. Insight takes us to places far beyond what talking therapy can do, but our lifetime conditioning is going to be waiting for us when we get there. It is this body, this mind, in this life that I have to work with in practice.

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PostId: 42032095
Number: 485
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 2/2/2012 12:10:00 AM
EditDate: 2/2/2012 12:10:00 AM

Thanks, Bill. I was reluctant to post about it because I don't want to seem whiny and ungrateful. I posted 484 before reading what you wrote; as you can see, I'm already beginning to settle down.

A few years ago I became fascinated with a rather cheesy t.v. show on USA network called &quot;Burn Notice,&quot; about a spy who'd been &quot;burned&quot; by his superiors, dumped in a town (in his case, Miami) with no identity, no job, no life, and left there to cobble together whatever sort of life he could. Soon after I started avidly following &quot;In Plain Sight&quot; on the same network about people who went through the Witness Protection Program, forced to give up their lives and identities and start fresh in a completely different place. I knew at the time that I loved these shows because I was burned out with my life, with my very self, and wanted to just walk away from all of it. I began this practice in the mood of a terrible sickness with myself, the sheer petty stupidity of my age-old neurotic patterns repeating endlessly, like an eternal Groundhog's Day.

I got a taste of what I asked for, a chance to spend eight days without much of any self at all, and I realized something: I wanted my life back. I want to love the people I love and do the work I do; I don't want to run away from any of it. Whatever was eating me so much that I hated the very sight of myself, whatever ways I thought I'd failed, however I thought I'd let myself down, none of that is even remotely important compared to how precious this life is, every single infinitesimal unrepeatable moment of it. However stupid and ignorant I've been, all is forgiven.

So there it is.

PostId: 42032310
Number: 486
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: WF566163
CreationDate: 2/2/2012 12:52:00 AM
EditDate: 2/2/2012 12:52:00 AM

Beautiful. Sounds like wisdom to me.

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PostId: 42032870
Number: 487
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 2/2/2012 4:49:00 AM
EditDate: 2/2/2012 4:49:00 AM

&quot;however I thought I'd let myself down, none of that is even remotely important compared to how precious this life is, every single infinitesimal unrepeatable moment of it. However stupid and ignorant I've been, all is forgiven&quot;

Laurel, that forgivenness and embrace of life you express is not something i've heard before from you. it's wonderful to be able to embrace life like that. i think that's an important aspect of wholesome practice. and i find that people discover that ability to embrace, forgive, etc exactly because they realize they are not that illusion of a little frightened person locked inside their head, but part of the infinite universe. that, imo, is the loss of the false sense of being a separate ego-centered self. not a nihilistic destruction of identity, but the releasing of the fortress we build around our hearts. we think if we let go, we will be terribly harmed. instead this forgiveness, compassion and patience arises. love even. best wishes to you.

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PostId: 42033267
Number: 488
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 2/2/2012 7:49:00 AM
EditDate: 2/2/2012 7:49:00 AM


Echo that! This sounds like a very different LaurelJC. Welcome to &quot;what's really going on.&quot;

Congrats again!

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PostId: 42088574
Number: 489
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Aquanin
CreationDate: 2/7/2012 4:33:00 PM
EditDate: 2/7/2012 4:33:00 PM

Laurel, how are you adjusting?

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PostId: 42089997
Number: 490
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 2/7/2012 6:17:00 PM
EditDate: 2/7/2012 6:17:00 PM

I had a big, fat, persistent fear papancha going on, which I'm now regarding as a phenomenon to be observed rather than a belief to be swallowed hook, line, and sinker. So yes, I'm adjusting. I've realized that freedom comes with simple awareness, not with worrying or trying to control the situation. I've gotten a sense of self back, but with that I can see all my old patterns and there they just plain are. I stopped meditating for awhile and that experiment was interesting and now I'm starting up again. We'll see how things unfold as time goes on. Thanks for asking!

PostId: 42095189
Number: 491
Subject: RE: Maybe a Change
Author: Aquanin
CreationDate: 2/8/2012 9:02:00 AM
EditDate: 2/8/2012 9:02:00 AM

Very glad to hear! Thanks for checking back in.


NOTE: And that's it for the first path. Laurel II and Laurel III are coming down the pike when I can get to them.

I just want to say that if there's any doubt in my mind about what this practice can do, all I have to do is re-read these early practice posts. The fear, the anxiety, the doubt, the self-centered drama, it's all there. I won't say it's all gone now, but it's nowhere near what it was. And so the story continues . . .

All I wish is that others on this path find some instruction in these postings, from me and from the many yogis on this site who helped me with their encouragement and instruction.