Laurel's Practice

PostId: 39788080
Number: 131
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/28/2011 12:04:00 PM
EditDate: 7/28/2011 12:04:00 PM

I've been meditating, but not remembering to write about it! Talk about spaced out. I honestly don't even know what I did yesterday--I guess I tried something before dinner, but it's as if the day slipped into a black hole. This morning's sit I experienced very loud ringing in the ears that lasted through more than half of the 30 minutes. I've picked up some kind of virus and have been coughing a lot, so I was interrupted by coughing spells a couple of times, but it didn't do much to derail me, I just noted it and went on. There was a throbbing in my knee, and a feeling of constriction in my stomach. Anxiety, maybe? Not able to identify clearly defined emotions these days. There were a few itches, nothing major, some torpor and restlessness toward the end. The most notable feature of the session was a tingling, vibration in my left arm, whcih came and went. I managed to stay in focus for the whole time, but again it seemed extremely long to me.

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PostId: 39825924
Number: 132
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/30/2011 4:04:00 PM
EditDate: 7/30/2011 4:04:00 PM

Yesterday, 30 mins. samatha practice, took forever to calm the mind, but about 7 minutes before the timer went off finally settled--nice. I stayed put for about 10 minutes afterward, so I guess it was 40 mins.

I'm about to leave on a cub scout camping trip with my son. It should be interesting to see what happens to my focus! I'll try to do what I can.

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PostId: 39912588
Number: 133
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/3/2011 8:06:00 PM
EditDate: 8/3/2011 8:06:00 PM

Well, the answer to the question of what would happen to my focus is, not much. I was out in nature, away from all media, in a tent, on a lovely lake. I was also with about 75 men, 5 other women, and 80 ten-year-old boys, plus a staff of about 15 young adults, almost all male. It's interesting to compare this experience to my meditation retreat: both took me outside of my comfort zone, into a strange place with different people, remote from my ordinary experience. Both had structured daily schedules. But of course, there the resemblance ends. Instead of sitting in silence, I was listening to 18 to 25 year olds bellow outrageously at the delighted campers, including hilarious songs and skits, potty humor (tons of that) and three-Stooges type gags. Somewhere in there the kids got archery, b.b. gun, scoutcraft, and nature lessons, swimming, and then meals full of sugar, sugar, and more sugar. I managed to sneak away and meditate for about 15 minutes two days ago, which felt good, but I always had people around otherwise.

This morning: 40 minutes, focused on the breath, but had trouble settling, as usual. My practice has been stalled at nowhere ever since I got back from the retreat and I can't seem to move it out of limbo. I'm in a low-level state of depression, but nothing major.

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PostId: 39927434
Number: 134
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: TommyMcNally
CreationDate: 8/4/2011 4:34:00 PM
EditDate: 8/4/2011 4:34:00 PM

It's great that you're keeping practice going whenever you can get it, even though you're working through DN, and it's this determination and commitment which gets the momentum going. Something I found useful during Dark Night is remembering that you can't do "it", "it" does you, you just note, note, note, note, and observe how these sensations all fade out as soon as you place the attention on them, this part is like a perceptual clearout, followed by a rebuild in Re-Observation. Note that frustration when you're practice seems stale, note that you can't seem to move, turn the lens towards what can't seem to move, include everything and equanimity will appear soon enough.

All the fear, the nausea, the disgust and the desire for it all to end are death throes, the death of the illusion that there's a seperate and permanent self, as it realizes that it's got nowhere left to stand. You're systematically dismantling the entire thing, with every sensation you note, everything you see as not self, impermanent and unsatisfactory, takes out another foothold on the scaffold which the self has constructed. You're doing great and doing what you need to be doing, stick with precise noting and don't let anything stand in your way.

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PostId: 39929159
Number: 135
Subject: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/4/2011 5:48:00 PM
EditDate: 8/4/2011 5:48:00 PM

Thanks so much, Tommy! I wish I had the discipline to do more noting during the day, although I do manage some. But I'm back to noting practice in meditation, and something seems to have shifted.

I woke up this morning with a sore throat, not a good sign. I was exhausted, but dragged myself off to my yoga mat and stretched out my aching muscles. Then I did 40 minutes of practice.

Began by counting breaths 3 x 10, keeping awareness at the nostrils. On the third time through I felt my mind finally settle. Then I began silent noting, and kept it up for almost all of the remainder of the practice. I had loud ear ringing, some stiffness in the back, a train whistle. I mostly noted bodily sensations, only a few thoughts. There was one itch, that's all. I was calm and alert. Then at a certain point my body seemed to feel energized; there was a sense of density there, not a floaty feeling, but there was also an extremely fine vibration. I was deeply calm. There were some hindrances: a bit of torpor, then some restlessness as time went on. Nothing major. There was also almost no pain.

What's interesting is that as soon as the timer went off and I stood up to go upstairs, I was slammed with headache pain and soreness in my throat and everywhere else; it was if it was waiting for me to finish the meditation. I've felt under the weather all day, but I seriously think it's a virus, b/c that's how it's behaving. Interesting!

PostId: 39929321
Number: 136
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/4/2011 5:55:00 PM
EditDate: 8/4/2011 5:55:00 PM

One more thing: I've been reading Adyashanti "Falling into Grace" and I'm finally beginning to get a sense of what's going on with the illusion of the separate self, although I realize most of it is intellectual rather than experiential. I'm also enjoying the threads on here that address post 4th-path stuff, even though I don't understand most of it! What I'm appreciating is the way people are beginning to contextualize the AF practice. EndInSight's thread and post-retreat postings are fascinating. My fear and resentment from earlier in the summer are vanishing. Tommy, I'm watching your work with the newbies over on DhO and am just so grateful for these forums. I have my thread here and really feel I belong here, but I love listening in.

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PostId: 39952268
Number: 137
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/5/2011 8:21:00 PM
EditDate: 8/5/2011 8:21:00 PM

About 30 minutes today, began with breath counting, moved to noting. Was immediately hit by sadness, tears, but that passed, then noted sounds, feelings of heat and cool (I was still sweating from being outside, but the air conditioner was on), eventually a few itches, aches here and there, torpor and restlessness, a bit of aversion, plus moments of pleasurable calm. Tomorrow I'm going to spend the afternoon at a half-day retreat in Minneapolis. I'm looking forward to that, but not to the guilt I feel for taking off.

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PostId: 39979095
Number: 138
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/7/2011 1:43:00 PM
EditDate: 8/7/2011 1:43:00 PM

Well, I didn't go to the half-day, I went instead with my husband and son to the movies and shopping afterward. I felt guilty for being away from them, then when I decided to ditch the retreat I felt guilty for ditching. Noted this. I have also been feeling an uptick in anxiety lately, which I attribute to my tapering of my Neurontin medication. My M.D. advised me that I'd feel crappy while this was going on, and she wasn't lying. My brain really, really does not want to be without this stuff; the smallest incremental lowering of the dose causes a withdrawal reaction. Anyway, I didn't want to go to the retreat partly because I didn't want to meditate in a roomful of people. I also feel a lot of separation anxiety where my family is concerned. I do not know what life will be like once this process of withdrawal is complete. I have a terrible time getting up in the morning, sleep is difficult, and then there's the respiratory stuff as well (which now I'm thinking is an allergy; the corn is tassling, I've been told).

Got in 30 minutes of sitting last evening, and had a somewhat active and unpleasant time of it. I was coughing off and on throughout, although I discovered this didn't necessarily interfere with the meditation. I did silent noting, and had quite a bit of torpor to contend with. Eventually I got some monster itches, really uncomfortable, and some mild muscle spasms, all of which resolved itself into shaking in the last 5 minutes or so, not intense or extreme, but noticeable nonetheless.

I have a lesson with Kenneth planned for Tuesday. I read Antero's journal, particularly his recommendation for doing this once a week, and doing exactly what Kenneth told him. I'm going to take the same tack.

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PostId: 39980683
Number: 139
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 8/7/2011 3:08:00 PM
EditDate: 8/7/2011 3:08:00 PM

Seeing you continuing to practice through difficulties is inspiring, Thank You!
I just picked up "Emptiness Dancing" by Adyashanti, "wow" is about all I can say about it. Highly recommended, his website is also good:http://www.adyashanti.org/.
I've found that noticing where I hold tension(I'm a social anxiety type myself) and relaxing that spot has proven to be helpful. Release the thought causing the tension, relaxing the tension in the body and mind, smiling slightly, and then a conscious breath or two. Doing this constantly has helped me relax and be more comfortable in my daily life, as a bonus I think I'm making progress on the path.

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PostId: 39980775
Number: 140
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 8/7/2011 3:12:00 PM
EditDate: 8/7/2011 3:12:00 PM


Brain chemistry trumps everything else, at least in my experience. All you can do is note what's happening, Laurel, while your medication issues get resolved. And keep in min that the medication is changing the natural patterns. I know. Been there, done that. Feel free to PM me if you want specifics.

PostId: 39984931
Number: 141
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/7/2011 6:18:00 PM
EditDate: 8/7/2011 6:18:00 PM

Thanks, guys. I am finding that I can't read Adysashanti these days when anyone is around b/c it makes me cry. I'm doing an independent study this month with a student on mysticism and peace, and can't do the reading I'm assigning him (Eckhart and Tauler) without crying either. This is so weird. I actually gave him the link to this forum; I'm also having him read Adyashanti. I think what makes me cry, when I break it down into a thought, is the realization that there is so much suffering involved in keeping oneself together--not just mine, but everyone's suffering. I've always had an embarrassing tendency to cry easily, which my SSRI's suppressed for years, and now that I've given them up the tears are back.

Chris, I'll send you a message. I am fully aware that there are some people who can't live without their meds, but I just wanted to do this to get a baseline. I don't know that the meds were really helping me; I think in my case they created a dependency, kind of like caffein or nicotine, where one comes to need the stuff to be at the level one would have been at before the dependency started in the first place.

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PostId: 39991784
Number: 142
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 8/7/2011 10:55:00 PM
EditDate: 8/7/2011 10:55:00 PM

"the realization that there is so much suffering involved in keeping oneself together--not just mine, but everyone's suffering"

This statement also suggest the insight of the Misery nana. It really softens your heart and makes you feel vulnerable.

When I went through this the first time, I didn't have the maps and I couldn't recognize this as a viewpoint. It is true, but only one truth.

Best wishes!

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PostId: 39996678
Number: 143
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 8:51:00 AM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 8:55:00 AM

"This statement also suggest the insight of the Misery nana. It really softens your heart and makes you feel vulnerable.

When I went through this the first time, I didn't have the maps and I couldn't recognize this as a viewpoint. It is true, but only one truth.
"

I do agree that there is truth in it. It's a viewpoint I have had for years, but then I've been Dark Nighting off and on for years. So I'm thinking at present I'm in Reobservation (tentatively, anyway). This is where I find the maps to be so valuable.

This morning: 40 mins., strange sitting. Began with counting the breath, 3x10, didn't really settle all that well, but as is usual these days I began noting loud ear ringing, and heartbeat like a jackhammer from deep within, echoing in my ears. Noted other sounds as well. Had some itches, not all on my face, then some stabs of pain, here and there. Experienced torpor, but instead of the usual getting lost in dreams, I followed the dreams as thoughts that then began to get hallucinatory, then labeled the whole thing "torpor," took a deep breath, and onward. At the point of recognition I'd note that the visual field suddenly would go static; it was like staring at a wall with cream-covered, linen-weave wallpaper. At other times I noted alternating expanding circles of light and dark, or just a milky film.

Some restlessness; I'm still finding that sitting feels as if it goes on forever. But the restlessness was not extreme. There was a feeling of heaviness and tingling in my arms towards the end. No strong emotions to speak of.

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PostId: 39996751
Number: 144
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 9:03:00 AM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 9:03:00 AM

"
I've found that noticing where I hold tension(I'm a social anxiety type myself) and relaxing that spot has proven to be helpful. Release the thought causing the tension, relaxing the tension in the body and mind, smiling slightly, and then a conscious breath or two. Doing this constantly has helped me relax and be more comfortable in my daily life, as a bonus I think I'm making progress on the path."

Rev, thanks for this advice. I'm going to work with it more. I have a tendency, when I note that constriction in the solar plexus, to want to do anything at all to get away from it. It's very hard for me to work with that particular manifestation. One of my retreat teachers said, it's not as bad as a toothache. From a physical standpoint he's right, but I find I don't identify the ego with physical pain the same way I do with emotions like anxiety. I tend to be ashamed of it as well as fearful (anxiety=fear of being afraid), and then it snowballs. Sometimes it just sits there and creates background noise, and I don't realize that I'm reading novels, eating chocolate, or whatever just to override it until I stop myself and recognize it for what it is.

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PostId: 39998298
Number: 145
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 11:41:00 AM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 11:41:00 AM

Hi Laurel,

FWIW, your sits sound very classicly Re-Observation like to me- the ringing, the jackhammering...

To supplement what Rev was talking about: I remember when I was on a 3-day retreat 2 years ago I realized how permanently I was accompanied in life by a seizing tension in my solar plexus. I already knew that I had a level of tension that often showed up in constricted breathing, tendency to snowball into panic attacks, etc. But I never realized the extent to which it was a constant driver in my day-to-day behaviour.

Post-stream entry, that tension didn't go away, but it got nicely fenced off. I could feel it arising (in social situations, for example) and just kinda say "oh, hi, yeah, you're the thing that caused my panic attacks before, right?". That is, it stayed there, but no longer snowballed.

Recently, I realized that, since then, I have continued to reify that localized tension as a Thing, even if now I reify it as a much more harmless animal than I did before. It is still hard to remember that "It" isn't there- there is only a cluster of ever-changing physical sensations. I have only just started that work.

All that to say, relief is coming, even before you "solve" the problem (if such a thing is possible); on the other hand, Rev is right that it helps with progress on the path, because in my experience, it will re-arise as a challenge, even after you benefit from the relief!

PostId: 40005079
Number: 146
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: orasis
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 5:24:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 5:24:00 PM

*HUG*

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PostId: 40005203
Number: 147
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: TommyMcNally
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 5:30:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 5:30:00 PM

"One of my retreat teachers said, it's not as bad as a toothache.

I tend to be ashamed of it as well as fearful (anxiety=fear of being afraid), and then it snowballs."

I heard a talk with Ajahn Brahm where he talks about having a toothache while out in the forest when he was a young monk. He goes through all the things he did like mantras, chanting, brute force moving of the attention all in an effort to take away from the pain. None of it worked so he deliberately sat and watched the pain itself, brought his attention back to it again and again when it just vanished by itself. I did this the other week with a really bad toothache and I absolutely promise you that it works, rather than distract yourself or turn away from these feelings take them head on and watch them because they will stop of their own accord. Pay attention to them, don't let it out of your sight until they go away by themselves.

As for anxiety, what works for me is constantly remembering that you're never anxious about anything RIGHT NOW, anxiety is always past or future based and almost always based on thoughts and beliefs which do not stand up to logical analysis. As soon as you catch yourself feeling anxious about something, do Kenneth's direct mode and ground it in the body and then examine it, there can be quite surprising insights to be found in there which, in my experience, can lead to quite noticeable changes.

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PostId: 40005399
Number: 148
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: RonCrouch
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 5:38:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 5:38:00 PM

"As for anxiety, what works for me is constantly remembering that you're never anxious about anything RIGHT NOW, anxiety is always past or future based and almost always based on thoughts and beliefs which do not stand up to logical analysis. As soon as you catch yourself feeling anxious about something, do Kenneth's direct mode and ground it in the body and then examine it, there can be quite surprising insights to be found in there which, in my experience, can lead to quite noticeable changes.

"

I just wanted to emphasize this because it is excellent advice!

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PostId: 40006557
Number: 149
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 6:30:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 6:30:00 PM


"I did this the other week with a really bad toothache and I absolutely promise you that it works, rather than distract yourself or turn away from these feelings take them head on and watch them because they will stop of their own accord. Pay attention to them, don't let it out of your sight until they go away by themselves."


I hope if someone has a bad toothache they go to the dentist, not sit with the pain *just because.* Ajahn Brahm had no available dentist. We do <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

So, I have a question -- have we gone from noting being the practice of choice for pre-path and early path yogis to direct mode? Really?

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PostId: 40007247
Number: 150
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 6:58:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 7:02:00 PM

&quot;
So, I have a question -- have we gone from noting being the practice of choice for pre-path and early path yogis to direct mode? Really?

&quot;

I was about to ask the same thing, b/c (I'm embarrassed to say) I don't even know how to do direct mode. I'm listening to Kenneth's Spiritual Materialism talk as I type this in an effort at getting a clue. But I'm going to talk to him tomorrow, and maybe I'll get a clue then.

EDIT: Okay, I gather it's just asking, &quot;How does this feel in the body,&quot; although the answer seems to be some sort of noting? I hate to be so out of it, but there it is.

PostId: 40007452
Number: 151
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 7:06:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 7:06:00 PM


I asked the question because I note (pun intended) some confusion about this, among other things. Somehow direct mode has become the pretty girl at the high school dance <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

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PostId: 40007641
Number: 152
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 7:14:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 7:18:00 PM

I do not recommend direct mode for pre-path yogis (edit - at least not as the main body of your practice). Noting, concentration, etc. are the way forward, and when you take that far enough, direct mode (among other things) start to make more sense.

Direct mode did help me deal with anxiety pre-fourth path, but in the end, it was the standard practices that propelled me forward.

Edit - it also helps to note mind-states and to become quite good at doing that (the same goes for thoughts). Developing this skill was a huge leap forward for me in terms of developing equanimity in the face of such things.

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PostId: 40009376
Number: 153
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: TommyMcNally
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 8:32:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 8:32:00 PM

Chris - Not at all. The only reason I mentioned this in the first place was as an example to Laurel from my own experience of sitting with an unpleasant sensation, and the reason I did it myself was because it was too late at night to go a dentist and so this idea, which I had previously heard Brahm talk about, seemed as viable a method of dealing with the pain as it would have been to take two painkillers and sit it out till morning. Needless to say, should someone have a problem of the dental variety then the appropriate professional should be contacted.

Direct mode - I specifically stated that this approach worked for ME when dealing with anxiety and offered it as a suggestion to Laurel based on that. I have no idea where the issue with suggesting DM comes from, it was specific to the matter at hand and in no way intended to cause confusion. We're talking about pragmatic dharma, I'm not aware of any sort of restriction or recommendations on the use of certain techniques by pre/early path yogis, although I absolutely 100% agree that noting and concentration is what gets the job done and is what worked for me. (See Mu's note on mindstates as this is really, really useful).

Laurel - I apologize if I caused any confusion, I wrongly assumed that you were familiar with direct mode. All it is is a practice of paying attention to how emotions feel within the body by asking &quot;How does this feel in the body?&quot; and paying attention to where the focus is physically, nothing complicated but it's not, as far as I know, a practice which is necessarily conducive to gaining 1st path. As everyone's been saying (including me, Chris ; ) ) note, note. note. note and note some more! You're in a great position to make a push forward into Equanimity if you keep doing what you're doing.

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PostId: 40009497
Number: 154
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 8:37:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 8:37:00 PM

&quot;*HUG*&quot;

Thanks, Justin, and all of you. This group is wonderful.

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PostId: 40009660
Number: 155
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 8:44:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 8:44:00 PM

&quot;Laurel - I apologize if I caused any confusion, I wrongly assumed that you were familiar with direct mode. All it is is a practice of paying attention to how emotions feel within the body by asking &quot;How does this feel in the body?&quot; and paying attention to where the focus is physically, nothing complicated but it's not, as far as I know, a practice which is necessarily conducive to gaining 1st path. As everyone's been saying (including me, Chris ; ) ) note, note. note. note and note some more! You're in a great position to make a push forward into Equanimity if you keep doing what you're doing.
&quot;

Thanks Tommy--I think it's high time I got straight on what DM is, so I'm glad it's cleared up for me now. I think I was under the impression it was some sort of esoteric thing, whereas it's really quite simple, and in fact there are times in daily life when I actually have done that, but I thought it was a variety of noting. I personally think your toothache story is amazing--I of course would have popped a pill, but I think it is a good way to deal with unpleasant sensations.

I assume what all of you can agree on is that noting/concentration is the best practice for pre-path yogis on the cushion, but that we can also employ the direct mode technique when dealing with strong, negative sensations off the cushion.

PostId: 40010441
Number: 156
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 9:19:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 9:19:00 PM

Tommy and Laurel - well put. You guys are the best.

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PostId: 40010984
Number: 157
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: RonCrouch
CreationDate: 8/8/2011 9:39:00 PM
EditDate: 8/8/2011 9:39:00 PM

&quot;
I asked the question because I note (pun intended) some confusion about this, among other things. Somehow direct mode has become the pretty girl at the high school dance <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

&quot;

I keep asking her to dance and she keeps turning me down!

Sorry for any confusion - I was not fully informed. Pre-path yogis should do noting practice with some metta (IMHO). Save DM for later, when confusion is a little less of an issue.

But I will reiterate Tommy's point about the cognitive aspects of anxiety - investigate it and you'll see that most often there really is nothing happening in the moment that is producing the anxiety, it's all about the past and future.

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PostId: 40016314
Number: 158
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 8/9/2011 3:18:00 AM
EditDate: 8/9/2011 3:18:00 AM

Hi Laurel,

Kenneth gives a great description of DM on a few of his youtube videos.
Good to hear Ron mentioning metta, as I think it has great value both on and off the cushion. In the Open Awareness book im reading there are practices just like DM, so it seems to me they have value at whatever rung of the ladder on?!

In fact in kenneths 1st gear meditation advice he says:

I was distracted from the primary object (the rise and fall of the abdomen) by a pain in my leg. I moved my attention to the pain, which then became the object of meditation.

Isnt this very similar...........both noting and DM include bringing attention to sensations in the body, except in noting there is the secondry act of labeling it?!
maybe some clarification would be good (as a pre-pather myself).....dosnt have to be on Laurels page though = )

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PostId: 40017339
Number: 159
Subject: RE: A Shift, Perhaps
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 8/9/2011 8:16:00 AM
EditDate: 8/9/2011 8:16:00 AM


Ed76, I asked because I assume, rightly or wrongly, that folks here want to get somewhere with their practice. This being Kenneth's message board I'm also assuming that the practice folks aim for is his Three Speed Transmission. So after those assumptions is this -- noting is the key to getting path in Kenneth's teaching. If you want to veer off into some other practice that's your call. After all, we're all adults. We can opt in or opt out at any time.

IMHO, if you want to progress through the Theravada/Mahassi stages of insight I don't think you can find a more efficient way to do that than to pursue the practices Kenneth recommends, in the order he recommends they be done. In order to do that noting probably has to be the number one, number two and number three priorities on a pre-path's ordered list.

That's all I meant, though I didn't explain it adequately.

NOTE ON REPOSTING: The numbers seem to skip from 159 to 180. I don't know whether 20 posts are missing, or whether the numbers just skipped. But that's how the text is, so that's what I'm copying here. Onward . . .

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PostId: 40101377
Number: 180
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/13/2011 1:19:00 PM
EditDate: 8/13/2011 1:19:00 PM

Thanks, everyone. Yesterday was such misery that I didn't do any meditation--not the most helpful response, but there it is. Today: I feel the temptation to drop into depression nudging around the edges of consciousness, but I'm keeping as busy as possible. Just did 45 minutes of practice, and felt some pressure, even a bit of pain in the heart center for about 5 minutes or so, fading away. I figured if it was something medically serious I would feel it coming back, but it hasn't done that. There was an initial problem of settling into the practice, then finally some calm. Lots of light in the visual field from time to time, some sense of uplift, alternating with sinking into peace. Then I'd find myself getting distracted and it would be back to &quot;listening, listening.&quot; That seems to be the pattern with this practice: there'll be a buildup of something (either spaciousness, peace, compassion/joy/love, or lightness) and then there'll be a recurrence of a sort of aversion, to which I'll respond &quot;release, release.&quot; The aversion can take the form of wanting to stop, or of feeling foolish, or of boredom.

I kept the clock turned around, then about halfway through realized I was wearing my watch. I took that off, then managed to stay on track until just before the end of the practice when I lost focus, but got back to it again for the last couple of minutes. I'm not finding this easy. No practice is particularly easy at this point, however, so I'm persevering as best I can. I remind myself that things won't change unless I maintain my practice. Then I remind myself of my resolve as well. I'm also trying to note off the cushion when I remember to do it.

PostId: 40102185
Number: 181
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 8/13/2011 2:12:00 PM
EditDate: 8/13/2011 2:12:00 PM

Hang in there, Laurel!

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PostId: 40102414
Number: 182
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 8/13/2011 2:28:00 PM
EditDate: 8/13/2011 2:28:00 PM

&quot;No practice is particularly easy at this point&quot; - <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> right there with you on that one.

Sometimes I think about how this basic suffering exists in everyone around me and make a wish that they (and myself), in whatever way we can, turn towards the suffering and surrender to find the life of joy and peace underneath.

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PostId: 40102631
Number: 183
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 8/13/2011 2:43:00 PM
EditDate: 8/13/2011 2:43:00 PM

Well done Laurel, your perseverance in the face of adversity, is really inspiring!....hang in there!

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PostId: 40109483
Number: 184
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/13/2011 9:44:00 PM
EditDate: 8/13/2011 9:44:00 PM

&quot;Sometimes I think about how this basic suffering exists in everyone around me and make a wish that they (and myself), in whatever way we can, turn towards the suffering and surrender to find the life of joy and peace underneath.&quot;

I thought of this tonight when I did my second meditation--of turning toward the suffering. I was worried at first because I was in the throes of anxiety for a number of people, chiefly my husband, worried about the future--the possibility of job loss--something we all face in this economy, and I had myself worked into a bit of a lather over it, but the practice ended up with joy and peace. I felt a lot of sadness, which I labelled compassion, compassion, and in the middle of all of that my 10-year-old son came barging in on me, but I managed to send him packing without too much disruption, and noted love, love. On the whole, all was well.

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PostId: 40125118
Number: 185
Subject: RE: Mahamudra noting
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/14/2011 6:45:00 PM
EditDate: 8/14/2011 6:45:00 PM

There was some really unpleasant stuff off the cushion today, to the point where I found myself wondering who in her right mind would want to do this to herself. I felt anxiety, grief, and nausea, one big beautiful package all together, grinding away getting worse and worse and worse. But then later on it was gone. It's just been coming and going off and on for a good part of the day.

Did some back and forth Mahamudra noting with Colleen. While we were talking I was fine, but when I started the noting I got the tension in the solar plexus. It was hard to work around it. There were also moments of love and peace, however, as well as gratitude. I am finding it hard to release into the suffering. This morning when I was in really bad shape I was feeling plenty sorry for myself. When I'm not in it, I can see the value of acceptance, but when I'm in it all I want is relief. Go figure.

PostId: 40170548
Number: 186
Subject: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/17/2011 8:28:00 AM
EditDate: 8/17/2011 3:08:00 PM

Well, I kind of blew off a day or so there, but yesterday I had another lesson with Kenneth, and am doing something different: it's a strategy for utilizing as much of the bandwidth as possible, as Kenneth puts it--getting the mind so totally engaged that there's no room left for spinning narratives, a.k.a. suffering. There's a combination of global awareness of the body, hearing, and seeing. I start with a focus on my head and hands, then get a sense of the body as a totality, at the same time hearing/seeing 360 degrees around me. It seems a lot easier than what I was trying to do before. I worked on it this morning and did 45 minutes without a whole lot of resistance. Some thinking went on, but not major. I felt reasonably relaxed and at ease for most of the session. Kenneth calls this technique &quot;crisis intervention,&quot; for times when a person is Dark Nighting to the point of out-of-control misery, which has been the case with me. Along with the mental pain there've been strange physical phenomena (pain in the neck and head that keeps migrating, an inability to focus the eyes). The point is to get all that stuff to settle down, to disembed from it.

I've been reading the book _Buddha's Brain_, and finding it not only fascinating but helpful for understanding how suffering is built into the system. It's a great read. Now the goal is to get to Equanimity, although I started thinking that although I want to do this quickly, I also need to work through whatever has to get worked through with this 10th nana.

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PostId: 40174081
Number: 187
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/17/2011 2:03:00 PM
EditDate: 8/17/2011 2:03:00 PM

&quot;Now the goal is to get to Equanimity, although I started thinking that although I want to do this quickly, I also need to work through whatever has to get worked through with this 10th nana. &quot;

They're one and the same thing... Equanimity arises when you see the other side of all this- the peaceful side. That's all that this whole thing is about.

So when get to Equanimity, don't worry about whether you really &quot;earned&quot; it... you will have!! To quote Woody Allen (from an utterly different context), &quot;You had the wrong kind? I've never had the wrong kind, ever. My worst one was right on the money. &quot;

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PostId: 40183398
Number: 188
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: AnthonyYeshe
CreationDate: 8/17/2011 10:05:00 PM
EditDate: 8/17/2011 10:05:00 PM

&quot;I've been reading the book _Buddha's Brain_, and finding it not only fascinating but helpful for understanding how suffering is built into the system. It's a great read. Now the goal is to get to Equanimity, although I started thinking that although I want to do this quickly, I also need to work through whatever has to get worked through with this 10th nana. &quot;

nice progress!

I have been wanting to read that book. I keep seeing it pop up.

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PostId: 40188319
Number: 189
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/18/2011 8:14:00 AM
EditDate: 8/18/2011 8:14:00 AM

Thanks, everyone. Yesterday I actually thought I might have gotten to Equanimity: I felt good for most of the day, everything was fine, nothing bothered me. Someone actually complimented me on how centered I was!

I woke up this morning with a lot of pain, however, so I did some stretches, and then tried to sit for 45 minutes. This time it wasn't as easy as yesterday; there was a lot of noise in my ears, although no jackhammer heartbeat. I was sleepy quite a lot of the time, found it hard to keep my eyes open, even somewhat painful. I felt a lot of fine vibrations in the body as a whole, but my brain found ways of skipping around the practice and engaging in thinking. The thinking wasn't upsetting or even all that overwhelming, but I found myself getting frustrated. I thought, here I work to carve out precious meditation time, and this is how I waste it. I noted that this was just a reaction, not anything particularly true. I didn't quite make it to the end of the session. This annoyed me. So there it is.

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PostId: 40188641
Number: 190
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/18/2011 9:29:00 AM
EditDate: 8/18/2011 9:29:00 AM

It probably was Equanimity. Surely Kenneth has used the &quot;army on the march&quot; analogy in your sessions? Your advance-guard is in Equanimity.

In my experience, there can be a period of wavering on the border. I even have a pet theory that Re-Observation and Equanimity are really the same thing- it's just the difference between panoramic-view-plus-discomfort and panoramic-view-without-discomfort.

Don't worry about getting everything perfect. This process goes forward without you having to &quot;master&quot; or &quot;stamp out&quot; anything.

I wish you joy and peace!

PostId: 40188867
Number: 191
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/18/2011 10:11:00 AM
EditDate: 8/18/2011 10:11:00 AM

Actually, I suspected as much--that it's the dawning of the 11th nana, even if I'm not entirely past the 10th. I felt for most of the day yesterday as if I could just let everything be. I was smiling, and thinking, so this is what everyone has been talking about. It's not ecstasy, or anything earth-shattering, it's just a feeling that all is well and I can do this. I am now feeling lots of bodily pain, but I'm also feeling the panoramic view. Hmmm.

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PostId: 40191448
Number: 192
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/18/2011 2:07:00 PM
EditDate: 8/18/2011 2:09:00 PM

I figure that the process of &quot;dissolution&quot;, which de-conditions us from having faith in all our usual filters and habits, leaves us with this gap of time where we're just assaulted by all this data. The subconscious is running around, screaming &quot;Wait- wait- stop!- what does this mean? And this? And this!?!&quot;

We have no way of knowing how long it will take for the subconscious to settle down, relax, and realize that it has nothing to worry about- that it's not a hailstorm of steel nails, but just a fluffy quiet snowstorm.

That's why I say, don't worry about trying to work issues out before Equanimity. Or to perfect your meditation practice. You have every right to defer those issues, until that perspective shifts, and these things become snowflakes rather than nails. It looks like that shift is starting to happen.


(edit for typo)

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PostId: 40202281
Number: 193
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/19/2011 12:03:00 AM
EditDate: 8/19/2011 12:03:00 AM

Thanks, Rob; this is just what I need to hear. I had a rather inconclusive and unsatisfying 30 mins. this evening, then went to a concert of chamber music. Music, especially involving stringed instruments, is charged for me--I look forward to the day when I can listen to the Brahms sextet I heard tonight and stop thinking of how I played that once upon a time with friends back almost 30 years ago, and if it hadn't been for my stage fright I could still be doing it, and how the beauty of it is so excruciating to me that I can't stand it, and then the experience is all about me, and not about the music. I start speculating and wondering, how everything I love, or everyone, is always all about me--and of course that's a rabbit hole if there ever was one. Time to just note, tears, sadness, and let it pass. Which is what I did. I still have some D.N. stuff to work over, and I need very much to keep practicing, no matter how unsatisfying or inconclusive.

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PostId: 40203151
Number: 194
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: Antero.
CreationDate: 8/19/2011 1:44:00 AM
EditDate: 8/19/2011 1:44:00 AM

Great practice, Laurel! Your vivid journal is full of details of everyday life and how you live your practice. It is always inpiring to read it.

It seems to me that you are going through a tough and transformative phase in your life. Hang in there!

Metta,
Antero

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PostId: 40207786
Number: 195
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/19/2011 1:24:00 PM
EditDate: 8/19/2011 1:24:00 PM

Thanks, Antero; you're right, this is a challenging time. Today I'm back in Dukkhaville, but with the panoramic view. I find it difficult to focus on what's in front of me, even when I'm driving. It's not that I'm not aware and able to see, it's that it keeps fuzzing up. I've had off and on Disgust all day, and my fibromyalgia is firing on all cylinders. Probably all this work at the computer (I'm busy preparing powerpoints for classes) isn't helping.

PostId: 40224452
Number: 196
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/20/2011 1:03:00 PM
EditDate: 8/20/2011 1:03:00 PM

Things are settling down again; I'm able for the moment anyway to perceive this agitation as just yet another series of phenomena, no different from other phenomena (like a barking dog or a sneeze, or even like a footstep). Got back from a practice session at the local Buddhist center, feeling good about the practice and the discussion. I have trouble sitting for longer periods these days, so am sitting for shorter periods (20 minutes yesterday, but it was good). If I can feel the mind start to settle, it is helpful. I will keep practicing and see where it goes, keep an open mind. I think I got caught up in the drama of &quot;I'm in Equanimity! Yay! Good for me!&quot; Then when things slid to harshness and constriction I was blindsided, took it personally.

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PostId: 40224807
Number: 197
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: nadavspi
CreationDate: 8/20/2011 1:28:00 PM
EditDate: 8/20/2011 1:28:00 PM

Sounds good, Laurel. It's common to slide back and forth between the dukkha nanas and equanimity.
Have you tried beginning your sits with a period of walking? That can be helpful for getting warmed up and sustaining mindfulness for longer periods of time.

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PostId: 40267708
Number: 198
Subject: RE: New Practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/22/2011 9:45:00 PM
EditDate: 8/22/2011 9:45:00 PM

&quot;Sounds good, Laurel. It's common to slide back and forth between the dukkha nanas and equanimity.
Have you tried beginning your sits with a period of walking? That can be helpful for getting warmed up and sustaining mindfulness for longer periods of time.

&quot;

I tried that combination and it was great--got pretty good focus. I've had a couple of good days, but nothing like the Equanimity of last week.

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PostId: 40280344
Number: 199
Subject: FearMiseryDisgust
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/23/2011 7:47:00 PM
EditDate: 8/23/2011 7:47:00 PM

Today I circled around all three. Was near (or over the line of) tears several times, had a nice bout of Fear out driving a route I'm totally familiar with and drive all the time (I was being tailgated, though, which I hate), and now I've got the nasty stomach and the metallic taste in my mouth yet again. I had a lesson with Beth Resnick-Folk this afternoon, and I'm back to my noting practice. Actually, I can probably do whatever strikes me as the right thing to do. I'm not taking any of this Dukkha stuff too seriously, even though I have to say I don't like it.

I have been noting off the cushion, as much as possible. While I was driving I was noting the discomfort, although at one point I thought it might be prudent to knock it off b/c I was getting into escalation My brain was doing panicky flip-flops while my son was playing with his Nintendo in the back seat. Actually, though, I've had much worse PTSD stuff in the past. What I didn't do was start thinking, oh no, this is awful, I'm going to be impaired forever, blah blah blah. I thought instead, this is just fear.

During practice was able to feel some lightness and joy. Beth and I did a mixture of four foundations of mindfulness and Mahamudra. It's rather easy to slide back and forth. The Mahamudra actually helped stabilize the sadness and fear, so I'm keeping it in my toolkit.

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PostId: 40288556
Number: 200
Subject: RE: FearMiseryDisgust
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/24/2011 9:19:00 AM
EditDate: 8/24/2011 9:20:00 AM

45 minutes this morning, beginning with 3x10 breath counting. Settled down at some point in the third set. Began noting sounds, then expanded to other body sensations, vedana, thoughts, emotions. Ringing in ears is still pretty intense, and the heartbeat sounds like some sort of construction going on in the distance (in fact, and this is kind of funny, there've been times when I've wondered whether that is what it was). For awhile things were pretty quiet, then there was a shift and I felt vibrations over the entire body. A few aches and pains, a few itches, a twinge of tension or stiffness. Then the visual field got noticeably brighter and I had some alternations between dreaminess and alertness. Some flashing light, pinwheels, that sort of thing. This persisted, along with the vibrations, for quite some time. I'm not sure whether or not the dreaminess is torpor. I had a bit of restlessness and doubt, particularly towards the end of the practice. On the whole, this was the easiest session for me to complete of all my sits recently.

PostId: 40289066
Number: 201
Subject: RE: FearMiseryDisgust
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/24/2011 10:48:00 AM
EditDate: 8/24/2011 10:48:00 AM

&quot; I'm not sure whether or not the dreaminess is torpor. &quot;

Yes, I have never checked this with a teacher, but I have a sense that some kinds of dreaminess is not torpor- in fact, at this stage, I slide into a certain quality of dreaminess just before 'fruitions'. So if your instinct is telling you &quot;this is dreaminess, but I don't feel like it's torpor&quot;, trust that and relax with it.

I think that there's just always some ordinary, fluid, brownian-motion of imagery at the mind-sense-door. It's just a sense-door- its job is to pass on the data in your brain. We have a tendency to think that it is the source of our painful, compulsive, over-thinking, and so we tie ourselves in knots trying to calm or silence it. There's no point.

If you are feeling &quot;here is a bunch of disconnected imagery and thoughts, but it does not have the quality of a hindrance&quot;, trust that. You're on the right track!

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PostId: 40295106
Number: 202
Subject: RE: FearMiseryDisgust
Author: PEJN
CreationDate: 8/24/2011 6:27:00 PM
EditDate: 8/24/2011 6:27:00 PM

&quot;Rob: I slide into a certain quality of dreaminess just before 'fruitions'.

&quot;

Yep, always like this for me too.
I think I remember Kenneth mentioned that is is common.
For me a certain kind of dreaminess (but not day-dreaming!) is a sign of Equanimity.

And Hi Laurel! <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

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PostId: 40296643
Number: 203
Subject: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/24/2011 7:39:00 PM
EditDate: 8/24/2011 7:39:00 PM

Hi, PEJN, and thanks to both of you for clarifying this business of dreaminess (if that isn't a contradiction in terms!). I am going to stop fighting it. I wasn't really fighting it much this morning, but the thought that I should be was nudging at me.

Late this afternoon: half an hour at the local meditation center. There was a rather persistent radio playing just outside the windows, it was hot, and the fans were blowing loudly. Since sound is my anchor with noting practice, this presented an interesting opportunity. When I meditate at home, my challenge often is that there is not a lot of sound, so my ears ringing and my heartbeat seem very loud. This time I wouldn't have been able to hear those things if I'd tried.

I noted annoyance, curiosity about who was being so inconsiderate, judgmental thinking, aversion, wanting it to go away, and the fact that there were no strong emotions connected with any of that. Everything felt kind of okay. The anxious knot in the solar plexus was not there. It still isn't. I did not experience any vibrations in the body for quite some time, and thought maybe the noise was making it difficult to discern, but towards the end I felt it happen. It was somewhat prickly and electric feeling, but not unpleasant. Afterward felt deeply relaxed, still do.

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PostId: 40298232
Number: 204
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 8/24/2011 8:46:00 PM
EditDate: 8/24/2011 8:46:00 PM

&quot; the fact that there were no strong emotions connected with any of that. Everything felt kind of okay. The anxious knot in the solar plexus was not there. It still isn't. I did not experience any vibrations in the body for quite some time, and thought maybe the noise was making it difficult to discern, but towards the end I felt it happen. It was somewhat prickly and electric feeling, but not unpleasant. Afterward felt deeply relaxed, still do. &quot;

From my own experience, this is exactly what you will be experiencing more of. It seems to unfold slowly, and bad days still occur. Sometimes on good days I'm still an @$, but I see it and drop it quickly. More dark nights to come... BUT once this ball gets rolling it seems to take on a life on it's own and things become much better with very little &quot;effort or pushing&quot;. Keep going, good times ahead!! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40303879
Number: 205
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/25/2011 8:46:00 AM
EditDate: 8/25/2011 8:46:00 AM

Thanks for the freedback! This morning, 45 minutes, was even more of that. I found it easy to sit, and felt a calm expansiveness for the entire time. I let thoughts come and go; I don't know whether it was Kenneth or Daniel who said objects present themselves, as if wanting to be acknowledged, and then pass on. It was like a silent parade that didn't ruffle me at any point. The body felt light vibrations, from time to time building into a bit of lovely rapture. There was an underwater feel to the entire experience. There was no pain to speak of; what pain occurred was short-lived and insubstantial.

Rev, thanks for mentioning that bad days still occur. I have dropped the dualistic thinking that made me dread bad days and feel as if I would never get past them.

PostId: 40303987
Number: 206
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 8/25/2011 9:26:00 AM
EditDate: 8/25/2011 9:26:00 AM

Win!

Good to hear. Also, wonderful to see how successfully you employed the mahamudra noting technique while working through the dukkha nanas.

Excited to see how you progress. Make sure you enjoy your ability to have a panoramic/inclusive awareness while going about your daily life off the cushion. It's a good way to maintain momentum in equanimity.

Mudita!

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PostId: 40310845
Number: 207
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/25/2011 7:25:00 PM
EditDate: 8/25/2011 7:25:00 PM

Thanks! Right now I am trying to figure out what this territory looks like. I feel quite sure that I know what the dukkha nanas look like, but this is something else again. For example, after sitting this morning I felt as if all my windows had been washed--everything looked so clear and pretty. I was happy. But then my computer acted up, and I needed to get some paperwork done (which is a recipe for frustration), and while I didn't have a meltdown over it, I no longer felt panoramic/inclusive, freshly washed, or happy. But throughout the day I've had that feeling wash over me more than once, and again I had people tell me how pleasant I am to be with (what was I like before? I don't want to know!).

Late afternoon: another 30 minute sit at the local Buddhist center. This began with bliss, mounting into joy, fading into peace, calm, and happiness, but then veered off into a kind of inconclusive mishmash without much focus. Dreaminess didn't start up until later on. Some narrative, some thinking, noting everything I could but not able to stay on top of all of it, some pain, and then toward the end some serious itches. But I felt refreshed overall.

I'm not sure any more what practice to use; that's part of the problem. It's hard to commit to something and stay with it. I'm also still feeling the restlessness hindrance, even when sitting is very pleasant.

Speaking of focus: it wasn't all that good during the day either. I feel a bit of wandering mind at work, which continues to be frustrating, although I'm no longer getting into the self-loathing spiral.

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PostId: 40319137
Number: 208
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 11:16:00 AM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 11:16:00 AM

35 minutes this morning. Lots of distraction at first, but settled down and experienced vibrations in head, neck, arms, and hands. There was some pain over my right eye and a few itches, all of which eventually subsided, along with a knot in the solar plexus. There was also lots of ear ringing mainly in my left ear throughout, and the sense of distant hammering echoing mainly in my right ear (go figure). Dreaminess and thoughts alternated with absorption. Sometimes the area vibrating felt warmer, but eventually it began to cool. Overall, the entire session was very pleasant, and the feeling lingered for awhile after it ended.

As for what I was doing: I began with 3x10 counting breath, then noting, then eventually dropped the noting and just sat and watched what was happening. If I got distracted I'd note for awhile, then let go of it again. There was a bit of restlessness, wondering about the time towards the end.

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PostId: 40319149
Number: 209
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 11:17:00 AM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 11:17:00 AM

I have one question, for whoever chooses to respond: I notice that for some people, a meditation session seems to go up the progress of insight map, passing through preliminary stages until settling at that person's edge. This doesn't seem to be the case for me, or at least not that I can discern. Is this how things are supposed to go at a certain stage of things?

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PostId: 40319431
Number: 210
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 11:59:00 AM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 11:59:00 AM

I'll say this: progression through stages of insight, in my experience, is something you only really begin to understand after the fact. Long after the fact. That's one of the real limits of the maps- you only correctly understand a &quot;nyana&quot; after having been through it a hundred times, and even then, you might not be in a position to recognize it &quot;live&quot;. So, trying too hard for an on-the-spot diagnosis is prone to leading to frustration.

Your latest post (208), to me, indicates the passage of several stages in the Progress, but I wouldn't want to guess *exactly* which ones and where you topped out, based on that.

PostId: 40319576
Number: 211
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 12:18:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 12:18:00 PM

Picking up where I left off: my guess is that individual people are good at recognizing some stages, and less good at others. For me: mysterious itches? Bam! 3rd nyana- three characteristics! Sudden stab of anxiety? Bam! 6th nyana- fear! Flickery, noisy, jackhammery gut-sickness? Bam! Numer 10- re-observation! But beyond those three, my own guesses get vague.

To go a bit &quot;macro&quot; for a second: after I passed stream-entry, it became so clear to me how unimportant it is to become &quot;good&quot; at this; how so much of my striving was based on trying to &quot;earn&quot; stream entry through mastery, or &quot;paying my dues&quot;, or some kind of soul cleansing. It turns out that having the intention, being modestly diligent, and not being panicked by the side-effects are really all that is required of us.

It may seem like you are &quot;working&quot; toward it, but when it comes, it's clear that it, along with all of life, is a free gift, no strings attached.

The maps and stages are after-the-fact descriptions, averaged over many people's experience. If you were following directions to get somewhere, and they told you to turn left onto Maple Street, you would not need to practice turning left 50 times in your driveway before taking the turn. And then, even if you fishtailed, spun out, and knocked over the mailbox on the corner while taking the turn, dammit, * you would be on Maple Street*. That is all that matters <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40319964
Number: 212
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 1:04:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 1:04:00 PM

&quot;after I passed stream-entry, it became so clear to me how unimportant it is to become &quot;good&quot; at this; how so much of my striving was based on trying to &quot;earn&quot; stream entry through mastery, or &quot;paying my dues&quot;, or some kind of soul cleansing. &quot;

Wow. That describes me to a &quot;t&quot;--I'm trying to be a good student. Thanks for the clarification--I'll stop worrying that I'm somehow doing this wrong, or not &quot;getting&quot; it.

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PostId: 40319982
Number: 213
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: andymr
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 1:06:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 1:06:00 PM

&quot;I have one question, for whoever chooses to respond: I notice that for some people, a meditation session seems to go up the progress of insight map, passing through preliminary stages until settling at that person's edge. This doesn't seem to be the case for me, or at least not that I can discern. Is this how things are supposed to go at a certain stage of things? &quot;

Hi Laurel,

I'm curious about what in your experience and descriptions makes you think you aren't passing through stages to get to your cutting edge? For example, in your post #208, there appears to be a progression.

It might be useful to think about what you're expecting to happen. Is what's happening not matching your expectations in some way?

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PostId: 40320227
Number: 214
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 1:32:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 1:32:00 PM

&quot;I'm curious about what in your experience and descriptions makes you think you aren't passing through stages to get to your cutting edge? For example, in your post #208, there appears to be a progression.

It might be useful to think about what you're expecting to happen. Is what's happening not matching your expectations in some way?

&quot;

I guess I kind of recognize the itches as 3 Characteristics and the solar plexus knot as Fear, but there's no discernible A&amp;P as far as I can tell. As for what I'm expecting: I guess I wouldn't be apt to expect a clear progress if I hadn't read others' accounts of experiencing something like that in their practice threads. I also recognize that not everyone's experience is the same, but I was curious enough about these reports to want to ask about it.

I know I am afraid of doing or getting it wrong in some way, also. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that my impression is that technique is more important in the pre A&amp;P stages than later--or is this not true? I know there certainly are ways of spending one's time on the cushion in those early stages that are not useful--spinning in content, daydreaming, whatever. I guess I should just break down at this point and admit I'm confused. How does one judge between skillful and unskillful means, yet avoid the pitfalls of trying to do things &quot;correctly&quot;? Part of what attracted me to pragmatic dharma in the first place was the understanding that a person can do this, apply herself mindfully and &quot;get it done&quot; (a phrase I hear now and then on the forum). I'll end here.

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PostId: 40320303
Number: 215
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: BethResnickFolk
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 1:40:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 1:40:00 PM

&quot;It turns out that having the intention, being modestly diligent, and not being panicked by the side-effects are really all that is required of us. &quot; -Rob

I like this a lot. I might say, having the attention to simply notice and allow what is happening in any moment IS the practice of freedom, and practicing freedom conditions freedom as a habit for this body mind. Good habits snowball and lead to more lasting changes.

Laurel, your practice is strong and moving in a good direction. At this point, mapping your movement through the stages of insight (in any given sitting) doesn't seem so important. Whatever is happening SHOULD be happing, whether or not it seems like you're moving through all of the stages of insight up to your edge in each sitting. I would simply committ to the attitude of bringing non-judgemental awareness to whatever is happening and prioritize that way of relating to your experience above all else. Also, in order to simplify things, you might try continuous noting in sits and while going about your business (as much as possible). And Mahamudra noting is definitely an option.

Your practice is great. Keep going.

Metta and mudita,
Beth

PostId: 40320492
Number: 216
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 2:00:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 2:00:00 PM

Thanks. Right now I'm noting fear, agitation, and that strange vibratory sensation in the head and arms. Just had a falling out with someone over politics, can't quite brush that off immediately, but need to redirect as soon as possible rather than obsess over it. I am noting that for whatever reason, I am not having a great day, but that's okay. There's a certain kind of toxic personality that has the ability to throw me for a loop--but then again, I'm not enlightened yet.

I'm going to see Colleen this afternoon, will probably do some ping-pong Mahamudra noting. Thanks again, Beth, Rob, and Andy.

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PostId: 40320510
Number: 217
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: nadavspi
CreationDate: 8/26/2011 2:02:00 PM
EditDate: 8/26/2011 2:02:00 PM

It's common for the early nanas to move by more quickly and subtly. At this point for you, the A&amp;P might just be a quick flash of joy, a couple seconds of happy tingling, etc.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your last question about technique. It's true that getting to A&amp;P requires more effort. By the time you're in equanimity, it's more about maintaining the momentum you've already gained than generating more, if that makes sense. That doesn't mean you can stop practicing or that technique doesn't matter - it's just a different approach/mindset. It is always a good idea to focus on technique rather than states or stages. When you sit your goal should be to apply your chosen technique as continuously as possible for the duration of the sit. This way you're not setting yourself up for disappoint by looking for whatever state you see as progress at that time. If you're paying attention, you're doing it right and progress will happen - doesn't matter if you can fit your experience into a map in real time, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting stream entry. I spent a lot of time imagining what it'll be like, congratulating myself on my progress (or beating myself up on the perceived lack thereof), really wanting it, really wanting to not want it so much and so on right up to stream entry. Noticing all of this stuff is a good sign and good practice. I love what Rob wrote; you eventually realize that jumping up and down and really really wanting it won't make the fruit ripen any faster than its natural pace. Striving and doubt will continue to arise. That's fine. Just focus on your technique and note them. <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

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PostId: 40332840
Number: 218
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/27/2011 9:35:00 AM
EditDate: 8/27/2011 9:35:00 AM

Thanks for this comment, Nadav. I am not sure that I am following through with the right technique--I can't maintain noting through an entire practice, but I think what I'm doing is probably what I need to be doing at the moment. For example, this morning I began my 45-minute sit with my usual focus on the breath, counting to 10 three times. By the time I got to the third set I was deeply relaxed. I then moved to noting sounds; not too many of those in the silence of the early morning, but there was a lot of ear ringing and the heartbeat. The hammering of the heart was much less noticeable today than it has been. I'd hear it only occasionally.

There were a few random itches, a few twinges of pain, and then I felt dreaminess, after which the vibrations set in. This morning it was almost exclusively in the arms. For the bulk of the sit I alternated between dreaminess and vibrations, back and forth, back and forth. It was kind of hard to do much noting, other than when I'd catch myself dreaming to note something about the imagery that was coming up, and then noting &quot;vibrations&quot; when those started. There were occasional thoughts, occasional stabs of emotions (guilt, remorse), but mostly I felt deeply relaxed. Towards the end I began to feel physically light, especially in the arms, as if they were levitating. It was a subtle kind of sensation.

I do want stream entry, more and more as I realize that many things that seem mysterious to me now will become clearer once that happens. I also want diminished suffering. It seems that this week mirrored last in one thing: I felt a sense of equanimity on Wednesday and Thursday, only to have it fall apart on Friday. I don't know what today will bring, but yesterday was a hard day. Yet I still was able to evoke the subtle vibrations off the cushion that I had experienced in meditation.

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PostId: 40333138
Number: 219
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 8/27/2011 10:06:00 AM
EditDate: 8/27/2011 10:06:00 AM

Laurel
From where I am it looks like you are doing everything exactly as you need to. Keep doing what you have been and you will get stream entry. Try to relax and let it happen, it will.

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PostId: 40333816
Number: 220
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 8/27/2011 11:09:00 AM
EditDate: 8/27/2011 11:09:00 AM

Such a valuable thread. Another one that should be top priority for the KFD backup tapes!

PostId: 40333944
Number: 221
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: dudeitseddy
CreationDate: 8/27/2011 11:19:00 AM
EditDate: 8/27/2011 11:19:00 AM

Gotta agree with everyone. I really find this thread helpful as I am in the same place. Keep doing what you're doing, I know I'll definitely be following <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

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PostId: 40353050
Number: 222
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/28/2011 8:44:00 AM
EditDate: 8/28/2011 8:44:00 AM

I'm so glad people are finding my reports helpful. I will continue with last night and this morning. Managed to do 35 minutes last evening, felt relaxed, but can't remember much about it! In my case, a new sit seems to cancel out whatever memories I had of the previous one. I do remember it felt easy to stay put for the entire time, there was reduced dreaminess, and some of the vibrations that are typical of my meditations at the moment. I went to bed and instead of reading myself to sleep, which I tend to do obsessively, I kept noting. Had a more restful night as a result, I think.

This morning I tried sitting for 45 minutes; there was a lot of dreaminess alternating with vibrations. At one point well into the session got a monster itch. After awhile I got just plain sick of the spaciness, to be honest. I checked the timer and found 8 more minutes, and thought, no way, I can't do this any more, then got the idea of ending the session with some walking meditation. So I did that.

Off the cushion, I was unfocused for most of the day yesterday. Did family stuff, felt worn out from it. I have been doing more and more mindfulness practice during the day lately; yesterday I was frequently noting my unfocused state. I had tasks that needed to get done that I was deliberately avoiding. Along with chronic anxiety, this pattern of procrastination and avoidance has been the bane of my life. It almost always is followed by self-loathing, self-reproach, and can then spiral into despair if I'm not careful. In general I managed to stand back from that. I think I know what happened: my conflict of the other day was still reverberating through my system, and until that settled I was not going to be able to focus on any of the tasks that needed to be done. I think I'm finally settled now.

As I write this, I occasionally stop and can feel my head and arms gently vibrating. It's kind of nice.

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PostId: 40355636
Number: 223
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 8/28/2011 12:48:00 PM
EditDate: 8/28/2011 12:54:00 PM

It seems like it is pretty normal to go through reobservation-like experiences after having a taste of equanimity (by the way, I'm not saying that is exactly what is happening, so don't consider this a diagnosis, just an observation that probably helps in many circumstances).

Once there is a taste of peace, the difficulties of life stand out in higher relief. The challenge is to get the real taste of both extremes of experience.

&quot;Reobservation-y&quot; stuff is in your face, but if you look right at it, it becomes very vibrationy and doesn't seem as oppressive. Just a lot of energy happening and having it's way with you. No need to fight it, even though you can't blow it off -- often there is an element of truth to it and some actions you need to do.

&quot;Equanimity&quot; stuff is such a relief that it is easy to space out and drift -- or to strive for it when it isn't there. But when it is here, looking directly at it shows that it isn't the ultimate answer. It's a state where not a lot is going on and/or we aren't bothered much by the self-arising of different energies. It's good to look closely and learn that lesson, too. Even though equanimity is a preview of enlightenment, it isn't it. Looking closely at the moment by moment features of equanimity is important.

Seems like you are blessed and cursed to have both of these experiences recently. Keep looking closely! Get the full experience (the no-pressure, let it arise, notice what is happening, being with it, etc. kind of &quot;full&quot; experience) and gain insights. Insights can happen whatever your experience is.

Hope this helps, but definitely feel free to ignore!

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PostId: 40357383
Number: 224
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 8/28/2011 2:20:00 PM
EditDate: 8/28/2011 2:20:00 PM

Kenneth's statement about equanimity in joel's practice journal is much better than mine! Check it out!

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PostId: 40357662
Number: 225
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/28/2011 2:34:00 PM
EditDate: 8/28/2011 2:34:00 PM

Actually, both comments together are helpful. I like the idea of looking right at both nyanas--10 and 11--to get a sense of their transitory quality. I have liked the equanimity I have experienced, but know from experience that it is unstable, so I am not tempted to settle for that. At the moment I'm thinking that Rob's theory--that they are two sides to the same coin--has merit. I'm feeling a lot of pain today, fatigue, and that's okay.

PostId: 40379212
Number: 226
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/29/2011 7:31:00 PM
EditDate: 8/29/2011 7:31:00 PM

It's been another difficult day. I woke up with a lot of pain this morning, lower back, upper back, and head in particular; in fact, I had a dream just before I woke up that I was getting surgery, and instead of anaesthesia they gave me a paralysis drug by mistake, and were starting operating on my head. Not a nice way to wake up. Didn't meditate. Eventually took painkillers after trying without success to deal with the pain mindfully. Have been spinning in narrative of one sort or another all day and craving chocolate. Went to the local sangha and meditated for half an hour a little while ago, and it was a great big snooze fest. There was, as often is the case, a lot of noise coming in from the street. This didn't seem to bother me, nor did the sleepiness all that much. In fact, the one good thing I can say is I've just stood back and watched myself with all this nonsense today; the one time I lost it was over some frustrating technology. Can't quite disembed from that kind of thing yet.

I'm going to see my yoga instructor tomorrow and consult with her some more about chakra stuff. My base and solar-plexus chakras are underdeveloped, while my throat is overdeveloped, not that any of that is a surprise.

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PostId: 40386710
Number: 227
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/30/2011 8:19:00 AM
EditDate: 8/30/2011 7:13:00 PM

Not so much pain this morning. Got up and meditated, seated, for 45 minutes, followed by 35 minutes of walking. The seated meditation followed the pattern I've been experiencing lately: after settling with the breath, I begin noting for awhile, then fade to dreaminess, alternating with vibrations beginning in the arms. This time the vibrations spread down the abdomen into the lower body, almost including the legs. They tended to be stronger on the left side than the right. There was also a tendency as the session wore on for the vibrations to become more and more harsh, like static electricity. I didn't fight the dreaminess aggressively, but when I realized it had taken over I brought my awareness back through noting and then settled into the vibrations.

I would say that the bulk of my practice these days is bare attention rather than noting. The noting gets things started, and restarted when necessary, but then I settle into being present in the body. The walking session was, as expected, more active, with narrative threads coming and going. There is a woman at my local sangha with whom I've had some conflict. I have silly fantasies about getting stream entry just to rub it in her face--so funny! During my retreat last month I thought about her a lot as an interlocutor in my head. I guess she's some sort of archtypal mother I'm trying to impress. Anyway, my feelings about her, and about the sangha as a whole (which has a number of people who've known each other a long time, a cozy kind of insider energy) are something I can work with rather than struggle against. It's like the eighth grade, or even second grade, all over again.

Edited to excise identifying details

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PostId: 40389008
Number: 228
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 8/30/2011 1:15:00 PM
EditDate: 8/30/2011 1:15:00 PM

Sounds like you're doing exactly the right thing. It's true that noting can be a bit of a sledgehammer at this stage, and you are right to trust your capacity for bare attention, as well as your instinct to know when you've just been tuning out- at those times, you can use noting tactically, just long enough to tune back in.

True attention is such a counter-intuitive thing (at least in the way we are conditioned and socialized), that we get good at it, long before we even know, or allow ourselves to believe, that we are good at it.

So at this point, trust your hunches more than you trust any single formal teaching or method. If your hunch says &quot;take it easy, ease up on the high-pressure techniques&quot;, follow that voice, and not the one that says &quot;But that's not the method!! Mustn't get it wrong!!&quot;. You don't sound like the kind of person who is in danger of being too easy on themselves <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40393077
Number: 229
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/30/2011 7:12:00 PM
EditDate: 8/30/2011 7:14:00 PM

&quot;You don't sound like the kind of person who is in danger of being too easy on themselves <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->&quot;--now how did you know that?! <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

Late afternoon: 30 mins. Began with counting the breath, got 1st Jhana before I was even through the first cycle of 10. Began noting, continued to experience bliss waves for most of the sit; continued noting, expecting the pattern of dreaminess/vibrations (noted the expectation) but it didn't show up until late into the session; when it came it felt just as lovely as the bliss waves. Altogether heavenly.

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PostId: 40404688
Number: 230
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 8/31/2011 7:21:00 PM
EditDate: 8/31/2011 7:21:00 PM

Yesterday afternoon was so wonderful that I knew I'd want to repeat it, and of course couldn't do that. I had a lesson on chakras with my yoga teacher and am working on the root chakra, for grounding. In keeping with this plan, I did some walking meditation this morning after spending a few minutes getting centered on the cushion. Quite a lot of busyness in the brain while it was going on, no sense of absorption or anything, but I kept as focused as I could.

This evening did another half hour at the meditation center. More sleepiness this time, but it seemed fruitful. There were vibrations toward the end, some of them static electric feeling. I had a lot of internal narrative at the beginning as well, more than I've been having usually. It's that time of year: opening meetings are tomorrow and Friday, new students arrive Saturday, and so I've been in a state of transition, never a comfortable process for me. There was quite a lot of anxiety off cushion for me today. Feeling relaxed this evening, though. Got through a few irksome tasks that I'd been worrying about.

PostId: 40413488
Number: 231
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/1/2011 12:54:00 PM
EditDate: 9/1/2011 12:54:00 PM

This morning, I decided to do seated meditation, then yoga practice, then walking meditation. In the past, I needed the yoga practice to get settled for the seated meditation, now I need the meditation to get settled for the yoga. I tend to give myself permission to space out and let narratives take me through the yoga; I didn't do that so much this morning. I reached a lovely state of calm, with vibrations in my arms, before starting the yoga practice.

I am at the point now where I can experience the sound of my ears ringing as vibrations instead of something solid; the same is true for itches, and some kinds of pains (the stabbing kind). But other kinds of pain I can't break down in that way. I was sitting on a cushion, which I don't ordinarily do, and my legs started to ache. I tried focusing on it for awhile, but the pain felt solid, like a block. I noted this.

Walking was a bit active, had trouble disembedding. Will work on this.

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PostId: 40440065
Number: 232
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/3/2011 11:09:00 AM
EditDate: 9/3/2011 11:11:00 AM

I'm having lots of trouble sleeping these days, probably due to overstimulation, and the fact that once again I'm trying to taper the Neurontin. I'm doing this by infinitesimal amounts, yet even so it's hard to get the brain to accept the lower amount.

Last night I was awake at around midnight, and felt good enough to meditate. I did 45 minutes, then turned off the timer and did another 45. I began with counting the breath, then noting, which I kept up for most of the first session. Had a lot of itches which built up to shaking, then pressure rising from the back of the head through the crown. This subsided and repeated, with new itches prior to the buildup and even remaining afterward. I had similar sessions about a month or more ago, but haven't had anything like this lately. I was noting a bit of confusion, which I didn't dwell on much. There were vibrations that set in eventually, beginning with the arms and then moving down to encompass the rest of the body. Sometimes they got a bit harsh and static-y. I was at peace through most of this. As time went on I began spacing out into dreaminess, more so towards the end. I finally began to suspect that I needed to go back to bed and sleep.

Off cushion for the most part I've been tranquil, except for some buzzing in the midsection that I relate to the medication withdrawal. It has not been pleasant. I seem better able to withstand unpleasantness and not personalize it than I used to be.

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PostId: 40455524
Number: 233
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 8:33:00 AM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 8:33:00 AM

I feel like I'm in the dukkhas again. Yesterday was tough, felt unhappy and unsettled, or conversely overstimulated. This morning's meditation I was spinning in thinking during the initial breath-counting, reached the end of the third cycle and just started noting. My heartbeat felt metallic, like someone was pounding on an empty metal filing cabinet that was echoing in an empty room, but muffled as if underwater. My ear buzzing was high-pitched and very unpleasant. I felt sadness. I had two issues that I kept coming back to: one, thinking I should give up the violin/viola because of my arthritis, and two, ruminating on a painful situation at work involving a toxic colleague. Had a talk yesterday evening with someone about said colleague, feeling his unhappiness with the situation, feeling that my workplace is adversely affected by it, feeling sad.

Kept noting &quot;thinking&quot; in an effort not to become embedded. Numerous images flashing through the mind, recognition that I can't take refuge in even pleasant imagery, feeling sad. Finally my arms started vibrating, felt I was settling down, but the vibrations were harsh and prickly, especially in the hands. Noted that for awhile. Wanted to end the session, eventually did so about 3 minutes early.

Later today I'm sitting with a group from the meditation center, a new group that Colleen Godfrey and I have started, including discussion and feedback. Looking forward to it.

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PostId: 40463160
Number: 234
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 5:51:00 PM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 6:19:00 PM

Well, I went to the first meeting of our &quot;Dedicated Practitioners' Group&quot; today, and talked with Colleen for awhile afterward. In some ways it mirrors the experience I had on retreat: people either had never heard of the maps we work with, or knew something about them and dismissed them completely.

The meeting began with a 45-minute sit. In my case, there was noise in the street outside which I noted, noted, and noted some more, but eventually things settled down and I once again encountered my recent pattern of dreamlike imagery alternating with vibrations, principally in the arms. The vibrations this time around were quite pleasant. There was some restlessness as time went on, but I didn't have any real trouble making it to the end of the time.

The discussion that followed left me once more feeling apologetic for my approach to practice (which is my problem--when I encounter resistance or disapproval from others, I tend to cave and feel like I'm being a &quot;bad&quot; girl). One person in particular had done extensive reading in the original suttas, and insisted that none of this has any basis in the original texts whatsoever, that Mahasi Sayadaw made the whole thing up out of some 5th century stuff, etc., etc. He seems to work in a Sri Lankan tradition, and when I asked him about his practice, it sounded like a form of tranquility. He believes that stream entry is a way-advanced thing that almost no one can ever get, that adhering to the 8-fold path is the way to go, and mindfulness means mindfulness of breath (although Goenka's name came up, whose practice I've not done, but I get the distinct impression that it leads to the progress of insight map if you follow it closely). He even seemed to think 1st Jhana is impossible for almost everyone, although what he described in his own practice certainly sounded like it.

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PostId: 40463352
Number: 235
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 6:01:00 PM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 6:01:00 PM

(cont.) His dismissiveness, eloquently expressed with what sounded like a lot of expertise underlying it, set the tone for the group as a whole. People don't want to undertake anything that leads to greater suffering, even in the short term, and while I don't blame them for that, I felt a sense of grievance that I showed respect for others' practice, but didn't find that respect reciprocated. I did what I could to present my own opinion, but it was a losing battle, especially with my own self-doubt creeping into the situation.

I think what I'm going to do next time is simply say, this is my story, this is what I'm doing, I'm not out to convert anyone, but I respect your practice and I'm asking you to listen respectfully to mine. Only I don't think it's going to get me anywhere at all. I explained the four foundations of mindfulness, said both Daniel and Kenneth teach this but that it had also been taught at the IMS retreat I'd attended (although noting hadn't been when I was there), that Mahasi Sayadaw had gone to IMS himself in the 80s and made a big impression there, and that Jack Kornfield talks about the maps in A Path With Heart. I thought bringing up all these reference points would give at least some credibility to what I was describing, but no dice. This one guy even thought working with the maps was &quot;dangerous.&quot; Others took a know-nothing approach, and of course I'm an academic, with way too much of a tendency towards geekiness as it is, and so I'm kind of looking foolish as a result.

I know what you're going to tell me: don't go back. It may come to that. But I'll just have to see how things go for awhile first. At least these people are practicing meditators and that's more than I get from the rest of the people I hang out with in the flesh.

PostId: 40464182
Number: 236
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 6:40:00 PM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 6:40:00 PM

Oh, and another thing: one of his heroes apparently is Ajahn Brahm. Could someone enlighten (haha) me about this guy? He apparently also is associated with the Thai Forest tradition, which seems to have been one of the main sources of inspiration for the retreat teacher who was so skeptical about the maps last summer. I just plain want to understand what I'm dealing with.

Another thing: this guy seemed to think I should only limit myself to reading in the Pali Canon, and skip interpretations (which is probably why he has no use for the Vishuddimagga). But even the Pail Canon was redacted years after the Buddha died. It's kind of like Martin Luther wanting to return to scripture exclusively, and burn (which he in fact did) the interpretations compiled over centuries of church history. And of course Christian scriptures were redacted centuries (or in the case of the New Testament, decades) after the fact. It's like a big game of telephone, really.

What I respect about pragmatic dharma is that people are willing to look at what works (even if it can cause contention, like AF--and I admit that has made me uncomfortable). Of course the know-nothing contingent, with which this fellow then proceeded to agree, started saying something like this as well: who cares what other people say, just practice. I was by then too exhausted to protest. I was also told to avoid the internet. Sigh.

I think, actually, that these people see me as a newfangled-type of interloper. I don't really know. I don't have a position of responsibility at the sangha and have only recently been going there much. That's one of the reasons I'm shy about arguing my case too vigorously, along with not wanting to get into a brawl.

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PostId: 40464339
Number: 237
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 6:47:00 PM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 6:47:00 PM

Hi - I don't post much, but had a bit of an overlapping experience in that I have attended some sanghas around my area that are not the same as the way I practice. But I like meditating in a group and the social stuff. It's perhaps too late now, but is it required that you tell them all about your practice? Can you just go and meditate with them, take what little from the teachings might be useful, ignore the rest, and chat about the weather? I don't think it's very productive to go to outside groups *if* you feel obligated to try to synchronize their beliefs and your own. I have gone to Theravada, Zen, Tibetan and other sanghas just for the tea and company, and I don't think I've ever told anyone how I practice beyond &quot;yeah, I meditate by myself mostly, noting or just sitting, that kinda thing.&quot; I've even learned a few interesting tidbits from the talks or methods; what didn't make sense to me I just ignored or filed away for later. I think it's really hard to do multiple tradition practice if you feel like you must somehow bring it all together and make sense of it. There are hundreds of methods and approaches - what works best for you should be your priority, no? There's no need to convince them of anything, nor for them to appreciate your practice, really, is there? Good luck! Curious how you will work it out. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40464943
Number: 238
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 9/4/2011 7:18:00 PM
EditDate: 9/4/2011 7:18:00 PM

Laurel,
You've definitely got guts, I'll give you that! Honestly, I don't think I'd discuss how I practice with most people, so my hat's off to you for having the courage to do so, especially with other meditaters.
Like anything else though practice, religion, beliefs can become attachments that our sense of self can use to further stabilize. Even though the point of Buddha Dharma is to lessen and eventually eliminate these attachments, and thus suffering, it is very difficult. People take these things personally and can feel attacked.
&quot;I know what you're going to tell me: don't go back&quot; I was thinking the opposite, if you're comfortable enough. I'm finding that situations in which I'm uncomfortable are often the best ones at pointing out what I'm still really clinging to. The people attacking you seem to be clinging to their beliefs and need them to be &quot;right&quot; to be comfortable. Let them be right, heck maybe they really are right, who knows? You have nothing to lose except the feeling that &quot;you&quot; know best. Try to use it as a pointer to your own weak spots and feel thankful for it being pointed out to you. I had a teacher (Geshe Kalden) who used to always tell me that anyone that made me upset was my teacher, showing me a weakness in my practice.
And if you decide not to go back, no loss that way either. I know that's a tall order, and like I said I doubt I could do it. But, from the outside looking in, that's what I see.
All the best, Be Well.<!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40474894
Number: 239
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 9/5/2011 7:56:00 AM
EditDate: 9/5/2011 7:56:00 AM

I can empathize Laurel, it's nice to have like minds around you. Unfortunately, like minds are pretty rare within any single church/temple/group... Look at the different ideas of the folks you were talking to, you weren't the only one with a different view! The way I figure, you've done your job, you've talked about your practice and so have the others. Like G and R above, I don't see any problem with continuing to sit with them. (Frankly, they probably are curious to see how your practice goes... it's human nature to both reject something different and be fascinated with something different.) But I wouldn't feel the need to explain your practice methods either.

By the way... the one nugget of truth that map-haters are right about is: knowing the maps won't help any given meditation move faster. You can't &quot;look&quot; for the next nana and &quot;go&quot; there during a meditation. These things arise on their own. Maps help troubleshooting afterwards, off the cushion after having a recurring problem for several sits, that's about it.

It's nice to be around people, especially during the sticky and icky parts of the cycle. I really long for it at times myself. If there is a way to sit with others and still keep practicing, I don't see anything wrong with it. You might have to bite your tongue until they are used to the new fangled interloper, but, heck, I have to bite my tongue around my family and they've known me a long time! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Hope this adds something to the great advice above!

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PostId: 40475125
Number: 240
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/5/2011 8:54:00 AM
EditDate: 9/5/2011 8:54:00 AM

Everyone, this is great. I should have expected such a reaction, but was blindsided. The truth is, as Rev pointed out, there are attachments of my own at work that are causing me to get all evangelical about this practice. I continue to want to know who or what teaching is &quot;right,&quot; and as Ona says, there are multiple paths, with some paths appealing to some people and some appealing to others. The AF approach appeals to a lot of people but not me. The guy that annoyed me so much took the &quot;my way or the highway&quot; approach, but there are a lot of people who do that, myself included sometimes.

There is one thing that has bothered me though, and that's a fellow who described an experience he'd had 13 years ago, and it's very clear to me that he crossed the A&amp;P, which of course means he's been dealing with Dark Night stuff ever since unless somehow he's managed to get through it without special instruction. People who've not dealt with the A&amp;P are often jealous of those who've had the experience, and those who've had it may be protective of it and not appreciate someone saying, &quot;that's just the A&amp;P.&quot; So the resistance to the maps can lead to real suffering.

As far as I'm concerned: I felt frustrated, but not upset. Awhile ago I'd have been upset. I have to admit, Rev, that underneath it all I do feel that &quot;I&quot; know best! I will simply observe this belief in action as I continue to interact with this group, and hope that I will benefit from being knocked around a bit.

PostId: 40491768
Number: 241
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/6/2011 10:18:00 AM
EditDate: 9/6/2011 10:18:00 AM

Decided to work on samatha last evening, spent about 45 minutes doing anapanasati, and while I settled into what I thought was first jhana, it wasn't particularly stable. I also noticed path-type stuff coming up, such as persistent, shimmering itches on the face and stabbing pains, which I tried to overlook as I focused on the breath at the nostrils. Some vibrations in the arms and hands, a sense of falling into deeper levels of concentration, and some bliss waves. On the whole it was pleasant but, as I said, not stable.

I have a lesson with Kenneth today, and will try to figure some of this stuff out.

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PostId: 40503214
Number: 242
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 8:12:00 AM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 8:12:00 AM

I had a lesson with Kenneth yesterday, and am moving into bare attention practice, letting things present themselves. Last evening, 30 minute meditation at the center, pleasant, relaxed awareness. This morning yoga, then counting breaths on the cushion, settling, then about 30 minutes walking meditation, using the soles of my feet as an anchor. Kenneth gave me a technique to use when dealing with thoughts: just to turn my attention to them and say, &quot;I'm listening,&quot; pretending I'm a cat watching a mousehole. Strangely enough, not many thoughts come up when I do that. I did that periodically through walking meditation. When a thought did come up, I'd think, that was interesting, that was a good one. Was dealing with some fibromyalgia pain in my hip and in my collarbone area.

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PostId: 40503403
Number: 243
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 9:35:00 AM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 9:35:00 AM

&quot;One person in particular had done extensive reading in the original suttas, and insisted that none of this has any basis in the original texts whatsoever, that Mahasi Sayadaw made the whole thing up out of some 5th century stuff, etc., etc. He seems to work in a Sri Lankan tradition, and when I asked him about his practice, it sounded like a form of tranquility. &quot;

Hi Laurel.
Have you listened to Richard Shankman's interviews on the Buddhist Geeks podcast? He explains some of these perspectives very well. The Mahasi Sayadaw lineage follows what is described as &quot;the path of insight&quot;--we're all considered &quot;dry insight workers,&quot; pedestrian as that sounds--out of the Visuddhimagga. As Shankman explains it, Visuddhimagga-based lineages tend to regard the suttas as inexplicable unless viewed through the lens of the commentaries, while sutta-based lineages tend to dismiss perspectives based on the commentaries. Sounds like your friend takes a sutta-based approach vis-a-vis the Thai forest tradition, but somewhere along the way ended up reading Sri Lankan, hard jhana stuff from the Path of Tranquility out of the Visuddhimagga, or maybe Pa Auk stuff.
As Shankman says, neither &quot;side&quot; is right or wrong. These are just different perspectives using different maps and frameworks. If you ask me, the Thai forest tradition tends to work through the contemplative, reflective, psychological lens, while the Mahasi tradition takes a very sharp, phenomenological approach. These two perspectives can complement each other very well. Isn't Jack Kornfield living proof of this? It's too bad this guy chooses to be an a&amp;*hole about this stuff. Don't blame yourself here!

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PostId: 40503565
Number: 244
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 10:22:00 AM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 10:22:00 AM

Thanks, Joel. I just ordered his book on samadhi from Amazon. I don't mind controversy; what I mind is not knowing what's going on.

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PostId: 40504444
Number: 245
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 1:44:00 PM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 1:44:00 PM

&quot;Thanks, Joel. I just ordered his book on samadhi from Amazon. I don't mind controversy; what I mind is not knowing what's going on. &quot;

It's an interesting book--in particular, the interviews in the back where he asks all these different teachers to describe their views on jhana.
Anyway, not being entirely sure of what's going on seems preferable to an approach where people say &quot;I've got it all nailed down because I'm an expert who has read widely in the suttas.&quot;

PostId: 40506416
Number: 246
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 5:26:00 PM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 5:26:00 PM

Hi Laurel,

Just watched this and thought of your new instructions!........I thought you might like it, its short!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="">

By the way, I listened to a lot Ajahn Brahm over the years and think he is a great teacher, just because he has a great sense of humour and really radiates joy in the way he gives dharma talks. However your friend sounds like a few I have met on the path.......my sister heard a teaching which says that the person who is wrong in an argument is the one who is taking it most seriously.

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PostId: 40508066
Number: 247
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 6:48:00 PM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 6:49:00 PM

Ed,
&quot;the person who is wrong in an argument is the one who is taking it most seriously.&quot;
Thank you, and thank your sister, and thank whoever your sister heard it from! Pure gold!
Laurel,
Your practice sounds great, keep it up!

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PostId: 40512159
Number: 248
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/7/2011 10:16:00 PM
EditDate: 9/7/2011 10:16:00 PM

Thanks so much, you guys. The good news is that our passionate friend seems to be backing down and admitting that he crossed a line. I'm going to try to have a talk with him, sound him out. As for Ajahn Brahm, I do have a soft spot for him b/c he ordained all those women, at great personal cost.

I've learned one thing from this encounter, and that is that we can sound scary to a certain kind of Buddhist. It's really too bad. That's one of the reasons I'd like to sound this guy out--I want to find out exactly, in his own words, what he's afraid of.

By the way, I got stuck waiting for someone at a coffee shop this afternoon, and began to focus on sensations. I felt everything start into subtle vibrations, even my teeth. Strange, but rather nice.

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PostId: 40525922
Number: 249
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/9/2011 8:22:00 AM
EditDate: 9/9/2011 8:22:00 AM

I've continued practice over the past couple of days. Mornings I do yoga, then sit for about 15 minutes focusing on the breath, then do about half an hour of walking meditation. I've done this about three times now. This morning in particular I had trouble with too much content intruding, more so when I'm walking than when I'm sitting. I need more practice with it.

Sittings have been a mixed bag. I've continued to sit with the meditation center for 30 minutes in the late afternoon. Yesterday I felt restlessness, but also calm vibrations. The main feature, however, was a return of the itches on the face, one of which I broke down and scratched. They shimmer and burn.

I sat another 35 minutes last night. It was a tough one, alternating spacing out and some itches. In some ways I feel as if I've been thrown back to where I was a couple of months ago. There was also some restlessness. I checked the timer and was amazed that I had as much time left as I did, almost bailed but then told myself I need to keep going when a sit becomes difficult. The vibrations had become prickly, harsh, and very uncomfortable as well.

During the day I'm much more focused than usual. I am not drifting and wasting time. Part of this may have to do with the beginning of classes, but it feels qualitatively different from previous years.

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PostId: 40526638
Number: 250
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: nadavspi
CreationDate: 9/9/2011 11:49:00 AM
EditDate: 9/9/2011 11:49:00 AM

This sounds good, Laurel.

Could you post a phenomenological description of one of your sits at this point, including the chronology? Are you recognizing a recurring pattern?

You say it feels like you've been thrown back - does that describe your general experience when walking around/sitting? Is that just at the beginning of sits? Do you then find yourself at equanimity?

PostId: 40561005
Number: 251
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/11/2011 3:44:00 PM
EditDate: 9/11/2011 3:44:00 PM

&quot;This sounds good, Laurel.

Could you post a phenomenological description of one of your sits at this point, including the chronology? Are you recognizing a recurring pattern?

You say it feels like you've been thrown back - does that describe your general experience when walking around/sitting? Is that just at the beginning of sits? Do you then find yourself at equanimity?&quot;

I've been waiting to reply to these questions until I had a good chance to observe a sitting, but it hasn't been possible. I tried sitting this morning and stopped early. I began with counting breaths 3x10, then doing a kind of panoramic observation. I took longer than usual to settle, well into the third sequence of breath-counting. Then I was hit by lots of sleepiness alternating with vibrations. After awhile the sleepiness got to be too much and I just stopped.

For at least a week, maybe longer though, the alternation between dreaminess and vibrations has been the new standard. What feels like a throwback is that I'll find myself after about half an hour having itches, reminding me of the 3-Cs. Then after awhile I'll want to stop. I don't feel a clear pattern of going through the insight path on each sit, ending at equanimity.

Off the cushion I'm wondering if I've gotten thrown back into Re-Observation. I feel vaguely nauseated, paranoid, and morbid. I'm tired and thinking life is pointless. I'm wishing I'd never started this path and wishing I could just be happy as a separately defined self, permanently (in other words, I'm in childish rebellion against all of the Three Characteristics). I'm wondering about death and feeling afraid.

I've been having some medical issues lately that might be contributing to some of this; I'm not sure. I'm not acting out, and the feelings I'm describing aren't incapacitating.

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PostId: 40561076
Number: 252
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/11/2011 3:48:00 PM
EditDate: 9/11/2011 3:48:00 PM

One other thing I've noticed: at any given moment when I'm just sitting somewhere, like in the doctor's office or a coffeeshop, I can center myself a bit, relax, and then begin to feel myself as vibrations, even my teeth. It's actually a pleasant feeling. In the doctor's office the other day I had a 15 minute wait and spent it like that; when he came in finally I had a hard time pulling out of it. He was kind of high-energy with a rapid talking pattern, which was disruptive to be around. I answered his questions but didn't feel like I had all of my normal social &quot;face&quot; on. I don't know what to make of this.

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PostId: 40565608
Number: 253
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 9/11/2011 7:38:00 PM
EditDate: 9/11/2011 7:39:00 PM

Sounds like good practice, really. Vibrations plus sleepiness is actually pretty classic. It's not uncommon as your practice has plenty of momentum to settle in quickly and get very clear awareness of flickering sensations. Of course, even though you can access this stage quickly, it doesn't mean you won't experience other stages. Sits can have a fast settling period all the way to equanimity plus a movement into the other stages, including the near neighbor reobservation. Other times you can go through the full arc very methodically, from mind and body on up and back down. Longer sits can go through a few &quot;cycles&quot; of these arcs. Other times it can just be confusing. Regardless, no big deal. What ever comes up, comes up. No need to second guess.

For what it's worth, vibrations and sleepiness is a classic combination and can essentially be considered equanimity. You should know that you can still make a lot of progress while you are sleepy. In fact, that kind of twilight consciousness can be a zone of a lot of insights.

If you are really sleep deprived, then sleep of course.

But don't be afraid of sitting while you are sleepy, in fact have fun with it. If you can spare a half hour, then you can play the &quot;three head nod&quot; game. Sit and do your practice, paying attention to the sensations of falling asleep. Oddly enough, being aware of the sensations of sleepiness can make you alert. Many times, though, you will do the head-nod jerking awake thing. No big deal. Let yourself go through three head nods before calling off your sit.

I always have a good night's sleep after doing sleepy meditations, so practicing while sleepy is a double bonus.

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PostId: 40569245
Number: 254
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/11/2011 11:06:00 PM
EditDate: 9/11/2011 11:06:00 PM

Thanks, Betawave! I decided to go for it, practiced 30 minutes. Hard to get the mind to quit spinning thoughts, eventually started noting. There were lots of sounds involved, a few aches and pains, itchy feelings, tingling, very mellow, visual thoughts, speculating thoughts, eventually felt vibrations beginning in the legs this time, then travelling up, then starting again. Vibrations came and went, noted for awhile longer, then experienced what I think is what Kenneth called &quot;slippery mind,&quot; lots of thoughts, so I did the &quot;I'm listening&quot; trick, pretended I was a cat watching a mousehole. The thoughts came and went. Also experienced boredom. Settled down into some lackluster vibrations. After all my complaining about sleepiness, didn't even get sleepy (the fact that I had an early evening nap may have had something to do with that!).

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PostId: 40605782
Number: 255
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/15/2011 1:54:00 PM
EditDate: 9/15/2011 1:54:00 PM

I've been spinning around in a boatload of content lately, some of it compelling, some of it nasty. My phobia regarding driving reared up again; I found that noting practice while behind the wheel allowed me to maintain contact with reality, helped achieve calm focus. At work, I'm finding myself transitioning from the relative quiet of summer to a situation of back to back classes, meetings, and discussions with people, feeling at the center of activity, chairing a major committee, having people seek my input, organizing things, taking on a position of responsibility and respect. It's highly gratifying, and also distracting. For a brief period I can almost convince myself that these things can be satisfying in a lasting way, forgetting that it's all temporary, and that it leads a lot of the time to stress, frustration, and aversive responses.

I've been too busy to meditate; take that for what it is: an expression of where my head has been. But I have managed to sit nonetheless. Last night I was tangled in a painful, convoluted narrative of a situation at work, which kept recycling through my head over and over. I could not sleep. Eventually I sat for about half an hour, and settled somewhat, but not entirely. I am feeling more grounded now, more willing to accept the lesson all of this is teaching me. I am more functional than I have been in ages, maybe ever. I am noting all of these observations and doing everything I can to practice off the cushion when I am not able to sit or settle myself.

PostId: 40635395
Number: 256
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/17/2011 8:51:00 PM
EditDate: 9/17/2011 8:51:00 PM

More sits where I alternate dreaminess with vibrations. This morning, however, I was at a practice session with the local teacher, doing a guided meditation, and I didn't experience either of these things, just calm focus. However, I have been tired and in a lot of pain today, plus concerned over the situation at work. Watched a video; both husband and son were out of the house. Wish I could have sat instead. But when I'm upset over something I seek distraction still; this is my long-standing pattern. I've reached a resolution about the problem, but I have been reaching new resolutions about it all week and am still not sure what it will take to get some sort of closure. There's a lot at stake for a number of people, including the potential for some pretty awful consequences for me and another individual.

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PostId: 40639430
Number: 257
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: EndInSight
CreationDate: 9/18/2011 12:06:00 AM
EditDate: 9/18/2011 12:06:00 AM

&quot;But when I'm upset over something I seek distraction still; this is my long-standing pattern.&quot;

Laurel, this is a serious issue. What do you plan to do about it?

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PostId: 40641666
Number: 258
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 9/18/2011 7:33:00 AM
EditDate: 9/18/2011 7:38:00 AM

I really empathize with how work can intrude into non-work life and meditation. Frankly, I just went through a fairly serious spell of this (almost literally a &quot;spell&quot; -- really indulging in thoughts and thinking as if they were completely real) and I'm not sure I'm totally out of the woods...

In retrospect, I could have lessened the impact on body and mind by being better to myself, especially getting more exercise. I was using distractions, too, but this let too much physical nervous energy build up. Mental processes can distract and assuage physical tensions, true, but nothing like physical activity to really loosen up physical tensions.

I'm coming out of it now, but there always seems to be post-experience review/re-living before a traumatic experience is left behind. Sure enough, this weekend I've been awakened at night by walls of anger/fear/despair. It's gotten so bad that I've _had_ to be with them. So I resolved to experience every sensation and dimension of it and let it do whatever it wanted to me. I knew if I tried to manipulate and push it away it would just stick around longer and I knew that without really feeling the suffering it would never be made fully conscious...

And sure enough, lots of suffering, even new flavors and nuances that I hadn't appreciated, and lots releases and insights came -- especially about where my responsibility begins and ends.

So funny and sad: Once again in my life, I look at my actions in retrospect and I see I could have simply honored what I can do and leave it at that.

The rest of the world's actions have to play themselves out as it needs to and that's something I can't predict. Predicting and pretension don't help, even though it can feel like a kind of protection and defense.

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PostId: 40641667
Number: 259
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 9/18/2011 7:34:00 AM
EditDate: 9/18/2011 7:52:00 AM

I was doing lots of metta and using jhanas to wash away mental and physical tensions but, and this sounds so simple and almost stupid, I wish I worked out or went for half hour walks before sitting these last few weeks. I probably would have had better health and practice.

The insight about understanding that there is a limit to what I can do is a big one. Shows that my sense of self was being defined by an external success, which is what others can percieve, rather than a loyalty to knowing I did what I could regardless of how things turn out. When I look closely at how I think about the future, I see that I believe I can know the different possibilities that might happen --- which gives me the comfort of certainity, but deep down I can't lie to myself and believe I really know, which causes more uncertainty! It's quite a do-loop. Of course, we still need to think about the future, I guess the point is not getting too troubled and locked into predictions about the future and thoughts about consequences which are really both just guesses.

(sorry for the long post, hope there are pieces that are helpful!)

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PostId: 40645823
Number: 260
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/18/2011 3:49:00 PM
EditDate: 9/18/2011 3:51:00 PM

&quot;Laurel, this is a serious issue. What do you plan to do about it?&quot;

Well, I know what I have done about it: tell myself that it's understandable, that over time the tendency will fade, that once I get stream entry at some point in the future it will be all over with, blah, blah, blah. But what I did this morning is sit for 45 minutes, and it was a really good sit--my narrative loop was plaguing me at the beginning, but I got settled after 4 counts to 10 with the breath, and then noted for awhile, rather than let my mind open to whatever was happening, because I needed the structure to keep from falling back into ruminating.

There was a period of itches, then I started wondering whether there'd be some kind of A&amp;P, noted &quot;speculating,&quot; did this a number of times. My dominant observation was &quot;fear.&quot; I have said in the past that the feeling of constriction in the solar plexus just doesn't break up and reveal itself as arising and passing away, but oddly enough this time it did, or rather my attention moved to other sensations, and I realized I'd left the fear and it didn't seem as strong. I came and went with it several times, noting other stuff as well, some sadness, tears wanting to start up but not really getting anywhere. Eventually the dreamlike imagery began, but I didn't get lost in it for any length of time. Then I experienced the vibrations I've been having lately, but they were much finer this time. The alternation between dreaminess-vibrations was choppier this time, briefer episodes of each. I had dropped the noting by then, but saw the observer watching this alternation happen.

Then eventually I got interested in how much time I had left. It was about 5 minutes. I had sat very, very still for the entire 45 minutes. It felt good afterward.

Betawave: I probably had such a good experience because I had done about 40 minutes of yoga beforehand.

PostId: 40645941
Number: 261
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/18/2011 3:58:00 PM
EditDate: 9/18/2011 3:58:00 PM

I agree totally about the value of doing more exercise, especially for us &quot;head types&quot; who are so unbalanced.

My fear today was compounded by having to play some viola selections in church this morning. I noted in the car on the way down, and then I did something I'd never imagined I could do: I noted while I was playing. I noted sounds, noted sensations in my hands and fingers, my bottom sitting on the chair, people walking past me, sounds of my accompanist, thinking about how all this was happening and didn't have to add up to &quot;I am playing, OMG what will happen if I have an anxiety attack and mess up, what will I do, etc.&quot; I just kept noting. It didn't interfere with the playing, it improved it. I hope this becomes a habit.

So, EndInSight, to conclude, more noting during the day, and Betawave, facing up to the feelings of anxiety and depression, however bad they seem. This morning I was on my way into a full spiral at certain points, which I noted. It's as if all this is the end of the world or something. I realize that distraction makes me feel apparently better while it's going on, but afterward I'm left in the same place, only I've just blown however many minutes or hours or whatever. Plus finding more opportunities to work out, and to do formal meditation as well.

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PostId: 40677748
Number: 262
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/21/2011 10:06:00 AM
EditDate: 9/21/2011 10:06:00 AM

I had a lesson with Beth on Monday afternoon, but practicing has been a bit off for a couple of days. I got back into it this morning, with a 45 minute sit. It was the same as Sunday's in a lot of ways, but with fewer itches, not so much fear, quite a lot of the rapid alternation between dreaminess and extremely fine vibrations. The pattern seems to be escalating, but the dreaminess isn't all that deep; I notice it and within a second I'm out of it. There was no inclination to check the time.

I settled the situation at work that had been eating me alive for awhile. It really brings home the importance of the first training--if things aren't right in the morality department, they're not going to be right anywhere else. May all beings live with ease and with kindness.

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PostId: 40683856
Number: 263
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: EndInSight
CreationDate: 9/21/2011 10:53:00 PM
EditDate: 9/21/2011 10:53:00 PM

&quot;Well, I know what I have done about it: tell myself that it's understandable, that over time the tendency will fade, that once I get stream entry at some point in the future it will be all over with, blah, blah, blah. But what I did this morning is sit for 45 minutes[...]&quot;

Sounds great!

I often used to think that when I ran into problems like these, they would require some &quot;deep&quot; kind of solution, as if I'd have to plumb the depths of my mind to find the causes and resolve them...but, if the problem is doing X, the solution can simply be to stop doing X. Avoiding practice? You found an easy way to resolve that. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 40688849
Number: 264
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/23/2011 2:37:00 PM
EditDate: 9/23/2011 2:37:00 PM

I've had a nightmare week, and I'm still recovering from the fallout, which was more complex than I'd anticipated. I basically had to clean up a mess that dated back to almost 3 years ago, a time of intense pain and trauma. It involved tough discussions with 3 separate people. The worst was on Wednesday. I would like to say I'm over it. It will take time.

The point of these remarks is to set the context for a description of my practice. I have lost sleep, and been unable to focus to meditate. I have tried. Prior to this week, my mind would settle after counting 3x10 breaths. A couple of times this week I went to 4x10 and it still didn't settle. Last evening I sat for about 20 minutes, and while I was still somewhat agitated, the fact that I meditated helped me sleep. I got up this morning and sat for 45 minutes. In the middle of the second sequence of 10 breaths I started thinking, if I don't settle I'll tack on an extra set of 10, then thought, no, just resolve that by the end of 3 sets you will be settled; otherwise it's like giving monkey mind permission to act up for an extra 10 breaths. This approach worked.

I spent about 20 minutes doing a bit of noting followed by bare attention, and felt reasonably tranquil. Noted sounds, sensations, thoughts. I noticed a peculiar absence of much emotion. After awhile I began having more vivid imagery associated with dreaming, which glided into vibrations. The vibrations, instead of alternating with the dream-states, seemed to continue through them this time. There was pressure building up in the back of the neck and head a couple of times, but nothing along the lines of what I experienced last summer. There were a few minutes of harsher vibrations that felt like static electricity. But most of the time the vibrations were extremely fine. They seemed to encompass all of the body, but not all at once. Ended feeling relaxed.

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PostId: 40698386
Number: 265
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 1:03:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 1:04:00 PM


Laurel, what is your view on your last sit? What do you think is going on in juxtaposition with the other &quot;stuff&quot; in your life last week?

Also, have you tried just not worrying about the busy-ness of your mind when you sit? Do you think you would be able to sit and watch your thoughts as if you were watching a television show or a movie?

PostId: 40698826
Number: 266
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 1:47:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 1:47:00 PM

&quot;
Laurel, what is your view on your last sit? What do you think is going on in juxtaposition with the other &quot;stuff&quot; in your life last week?

Also, have you tried just not worrying about the busy-ness of your mind when you sit? Do you think you would be able to sit and watch your thoughts as if you were watching a television show or a movie?

&quot;

In all my sits, it's as if I enter the surface of the ocean, and am at first confronted with whatever turbulence is there. Once I get far enough underneath, I find a deeper layer of peace. Yesterday I was able, perhaps because of my resolve, to get down under the waves. What happened once I got there seems not to have had much at all to do with the content of my week.

This morning was a different matter. I wasn't noticeably upset this morning, but I never got that far beneath the turbulence The mind was not necessarily worrying, just active. I noticed it first as I was doing the yoga I always do prior to my early morning sit.

I guess I find the busy-ness of my mind unpleasant. While I was doing my yoga, for example, I felt a sense of just how alienating and tiresome my narrative threads can get. It used to be that I enjoyed spacing out and thinking, thinking, thinking. This time it really felt like the proverbial hot coal in one's hand; I wanted to let go of it. I admit I was actively working to do that. I tried sitting on my bolster in the middle of the workout and counting breaths 10x2; I felt more settled, but then as I resumed moving through the poses I felt the activity in the mind starting up again.

Part of what I felt this morning was frustration. I had believed that over the past few months I had reached a point where I no longer had to contend with the kind of monkey-mind that is the plague of beginners. Now I feel almost as if I'm a beginner all over again.

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PostId: 40698878
Number: 267
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 1:51:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 1:51:00 PM

(cont) I realize we're supposed to approach our practice with beginner's mind, but I don't want to be thrown back into the turmoil of an untrained mind. So I actually told myself that I should not allow my mind to run on and on like that; otherwise I'm reinforcing it. I used Kenneth's technique of saying, &quot;I'm listening&quot; when it kept happening. I'm wondering whether my mental activity during this morning's sit might be &quot;slippery mind,&quot; which I understand is a feature of equanimity. In any case, I did get to some vibrations, but not the dream imagery I've had so often lately. Then I heard my family overhead, and I admit I ended the sit early.

On the whole, I think my practice has helped me deal with the problems at work quite well; I've been able to see things more clearly than in the past. But I am now longing, longing, longing for stream entry. I want to let go of the hot coal. My life, unfortunately, has gotten more complex and busy. But that's the way it is.

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PostId: 40699073
Number: 268
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 2:11:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 2:11:00 PM


Laurel, I used to have the same issues with mind that you now have. So, this will probably sound odd but I think you could be setting yourself up for failure if you fully believe you will be able to control your mind on a regular basis. I, too, thought there was some magical fix that would show up one day through practicing hard and wanting it badly. Turns out there is a magical cure and it does come practice -- but it does not eliminate monkey mind. You can, tho, have space in which to see.

There's a Tibetan practice that has new yogis go off and sit by themselves, one day at a time. On the first day they are told to sit and still their mind completely. &quot;No thinking at all!&quot; is what they are told they must do. Know what happens? Yes, like you and me, they cannot still their mind. So on the second day their instructions are to sit and think ALL THE TIME, non-stop. &quot;Do not stop thinking!&quot; is the instruction on day 2. And guess what? They can't do that, either!

So... what's the point?

I think the point is that we're not ultimately trying to control the mind using meditation. We are, however, trying to create the space (awareness) around our thoughts that allows us to see our thoughts as they occur and know that thinking is simply the nature of mind - to jabber, to create random images, to haunt us with nagging doubts and fears. But if we can develop that space, even just a little bit, we will be able to observe more calmly and escape much of the pain and suffering monkey mind creates.

If I read your journal here and your other recent comments you are indeed getting it, and you are starting to find the space, the awareness, that will allow you to see more clearly. If you keep in mind that THAT is your goal you will have an *achievable* objective and be able to manageably see your progress.

Does that make sense?

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PostId: 40699144
Number: 269
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 2:20:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 2:20:00 PM

Yes, it does make sense; I am such a perfection-junkie that I've been letting this busy mind stuff get to me. There are many times when my mind does settle quite nicely through my favorite techniques, but then there are other times when it won't. It has settled a lot more over the past few months than before. I crave that peaceful feeling (and it is craving), don't like the other business, and now I need to investigate that with compassion rather than try too hard to shut it down. I need to be reminded of this over and over, too. Thanks.

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PostId: 40700401
Number: 270
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 4:31:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 4:31:00 PM


I realized some time ago that my drive for perfection was a much bigger handicap than it was a help. It was caused by my undying, laser beam focused desire to please others, especially those I perceived to be in positions of authority. There was a process running in my head that evaluated every situation in that light, and not being able to please made me feel like I was going to die. I was driven by fear of failure, not because *I* wanted to succeed but because I thought I was severely disappointing those others if I didn't succeed.

My practice was very helpful in revealing this to me and, better yet, helping me settle down and realize that I had to be far kinder to myself and far more empowered to make my own way. This has led me to be able to stand up in formerly fearful situations, without fear, and speak truth to power. This is something I was not able to do prior to my practice and the insights it has revealed.

So..... keep going!

PostId: 40701583
Number: 271
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/24/2011 6:31:00 PM
EditDate: 9/24/2011 6:31:00 PM

Laurel - just wanted to say I have been there, too, and everything Chris suggests resonates with what helped me, also. There's literally nothing wrong with the monkey mind. It's perfectly fine. What's actually important is what you pointed out: &quot;I crave that peaceful feeling and don't like the other business.&quot; That's a huge thing to recognize! Accept both states of mind as perfectly fine - they come and go by themselves, and have nothing to do with your practice. Practicing &quot;perfectly&quot; doesn't change them coming and going all by themselves. I guarantee it. Don't even bother trying to shut one down and bring back the other one - think instead about accepting it, just as it is. Here comes busy mind, there goes crazy mind, here comes peaceful mind, there goes tranquil mind... back and forth, back and forth. Isn't it actually quite fascinating to watch? The mind is a strange bird, dancing its little dance. Amazing! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

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PostId: 40708998
Number: 272
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 2:14:00 AM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 2:14:00 AM

&quot;A little rant about precision in noting:

Everything I've read on noting technique has contributed to making me neurotic about either vocabulary, precision, or speed, and I've never become skilled and precise to my own obsessive-compulsive satisfaction.

I flip-flop techniques regularly- Kenneth-style, Shinzen Young-style, Mahasi-style, noting the 5 hindrances, noting the 6 sense-doors, or just coming up with whatever word seems right. It seems to work anyways <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . The noting keeps your attention on the stream of perceived phenomena, and that's the beginning and end of its usefulness. Whether you ever get fast or accurate or not doesn't really matter.

Eventually, you'll even start to find that noting is sometimes too coarse, because your sensitivity to the stream of phenomena gets too fast. Nobody can tell you when you get to that point- you have only your gut sense to go on. Once you're there, though, it's good not to let an obsession with finding names block your way.

Then, when your gut sense tells you that you're drifting, you can go back to the noting.

I do think, though, that Kenneth is right to emphasize noting from all 4 &quot;foundations of mindfulness&quot;- that's always a good way to pinpoint where you're stuck. I'm really weak on finding notes for the 3rd foundation (mental states / moods / emotions).&quot;

SPOT ON!!!

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PostId: 40709012
Number: 273
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 2:16:00 AM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 2:16:00 AM

&quot;Laurel - just wanted to say I have been there, too, and everything Chris suggests resonates with what helped me, also. There's literally nothing wrong with the monkey mind. It's perfectly fine. What's actually important is what you pointed out: &quot;I crave that peaceful feeling and don't like the other business.&quot; That's a huge thing to recognize! Accept both states of mind as perfectly fine - they come and go by themselves, and have nothing to do with your practice. Practicing &quot;perfectly&quot; doesn't change them coming and going all by themselves. I guarantee it. Don't even bother trying to shut one down and bring back the other one - think instead about accepting it, just as it is. Here comes busy mind, there goes crazy mind, here comes peaceful mind, there goes tranquil mind... back and forth, back and forth. Isn't it actually quite fascinating to watch? The mind is a strange bird, dancing its little dance. Amazing! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->&quot;

SPOT ON !!!!!

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PostId: 40714029
Number: 274
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 3:45:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 3:45:00 PM

I don't know if it's just me, but this website is becoming so slow I could have a 7-course dinner while waiting for a page to load. Getting around to any extent is excruciating. Not that I'm the impatient type (!), but it seems worse than usual, and it's not because the traffic seems particularly heavy as far as I can tell.

Enough grumbling. I'm back in the dukkhas, it seems. This morning I felt as if I'd been the object of a dementor attack (as in Harry Potter); I felt as if I'd never be happy again. My 30 minutes of sitting were uncomfortable and unpleasant. I didn't just have anxiety or monkey mind, I had a sense of going nowhere fast and not liking it. There were physical dukkhas (pain in the chest, briefly) and a sense of futility. The vibrations got harsh and kind of nasty. I was in a bad mood all morning, and have felt a sense of un-ease all day, bordering on paranoia. Some of it could be fallout from life, but some of it honestly feels like a return to the sense of tragedy and sadness I felt in the dukkhas. So there it is. There was even a moment or two of nausea.

I have to get my momentum back. I'm much too absorbed in my work, at the expense of everything else.

Speaking of which, I'm reading St. Teresa's *Interior Castle* for a class, and I could swear she's talking about access concentration, first jhana, and the formless realms in some of the segments I've been reading. It's almost uncanny, although I shouldn't be entirely surprised!

As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect.

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PostId: 40714101
Number: 275
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 3:53:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 3:53:00 PM

(cont.) Chris, I am absolutely a people-pleaser, especially with those in authority. I am always looking over my shoulder for someone to scold me for doing things wrong, being lazy, making a mistake, not taking things seriously enough. It's a conditioned response. It's as if I'm always in school somewhere and the teacher's going to rap me on the knuckles and make me stand in the corner. These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense.