Laurel's Practice
12 years 9 months ago #93821
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 40714215
Number: 276
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 4:07:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 4:07:00 PM
"As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect."
Yes, confidence will help[ you overcome your currently muddied view.
Laurel, at your core you are always skillful. All the ease you seek is right there for you to uncover. It's not a matter of training your mind (yesterday's topic) as much as it is a matter of simply learning to just be with all the things you are afraid of, that you despise, that appear to be holding you back. *Appear to be* is the key point. Ttry to relax into your experience. You seem to be striving and with every sit re-evaluating your practice in the light of what you consider to be perfection. There is no perfection! There is just what is, right now. BE WITH that. Relax into it. Let it flow.
Our way is to move toward those things but not to fight them, rather to allow them. To see them for what they are. Conditioned responses can be overcome, and almost everything you do is a conditioned response <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->
Stick with it! If I can do this you can do this.
PostId: 40714286
Number: 277
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 4:13:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 4:13:00 PM
"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."
I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?
PostId: 40715107
Number: 278
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 5:27:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 5:27:00 PM
"
As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect.
"
You are not untrained, at this point. It's different when you are an utter beginner just learning to even pay attention and sit for 30 minutes. At your level, you have noticed you don't like this movie. You have noticed you don't like certain mindstates. There's a very interesting experience to be had: when you feel that awfulness, tension, anxiety, paranoia, pain, etc - imagine you are in a kayak without oars, being carried down a turbulent river. The boat swirls and bounces and jolts this way and that. You want so badly to control it! But try something. Try imagining just flowing with that discomfort. Allow it to carry you along, bouncing, jolting, swirling, heaving and tossing. Just sit back in the kayak, close your eyes, and let the crazy rapids carry the kayak along. It takes courage to let go of trying to control it or wanting to control it. Just trust that it is going where it is going and there's nothing you can do about it. Your mind and body may tremble and fret and twitch and ache, but you won't die. You'll just bounce and swirl along. Relax into the chaos and unpleasantness, and let it do its thing all by itself. See what happens. The whole process of these difficult periods is one that calls for release, relaxing, and surrender. Find the courage to trust that this difficult and unpleasant state serves a very important purpose. Allow it to run its course rather than fighting with it. In fact, the more you fight it, the more you interfere with it running its courrse! It's a very interesting experiment to try letting go and allowing it to be just as it is! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
PostId: 40715232
Number: 279
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 5:36:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 5:36:00 PM
Re: the childhood responses of wanting to please authority and so on - we all have such baggage. I was a big teacher's pet type, too, always wanting to get that gold star. Don't worry about it. You don't need to fix that in order to make progress in your practice. It will fix itself in time. You are aware of it, and that is important. You can notice when you are reacting from that place, and smile at yourself for playing an old game out of habit. No need to try to eradicate it or destroy it. It will gradually become less and less important simply by your noticing it, and giving it a gentle smile. What a funny habit! There it goes again!
PostId: 40727536
Number: 280
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/26/2011 8:58:00 PM
EditDate: 9/26/2011 8:58:00 PM
"
"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."
I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?
"
I think giragirasol has helped answer this question--trying to please others means you never grow up enough to know what it is you need. I do try to think of it just as a peculiar habit, something that keeps manifesting itself over and over, not an intention on my part.
At this point I am just wanting to get back to my practice. Spent the day in a state of grey depression, unfocused, low energy. Sat for half an hour at the local meditation center. It felt pretty good. A panoramic focus seems to help the most, with some noting here and there but not an effort at doing it for the entire sit. I felt myself sinking, not really even into dreamlike states, but deeper relaxation, some of it accompanied by bouts of paranoia. I didn't notice any vibrations until closer to the end of the time. Some restlessness as well. I am not worried any more, just letting it be, although I miss being in equanimity and want to get back there. The fatigue and depression may have to do with the week I just had as well as my not spending enough time practicing.
Number: 276
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 4:07:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 4:07:00 PM
"As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect."
Yes, confidence will help[ you overcome your currently muddied view.
Laurel, at your core you are always skillful. All the ease you seek is right there for you to uncover. It's not a matter of training your mind (yesterday's topic) as much as it is a matter of simply learning to just be with all the things you are afraid of, that you despise, that appear to be holding you back. *Appear to be* is the key point. Ttry to relax into your experience. You seem to be striving and with every sit re-evaluating your practice in the light of what you consider to be perfection. There is no perfection! There is just what is, right now. BE WITH that. Relax into it. Let it flow.
Our way is to move toward those things but not to fight them, rather to allow them. To see them for what they are. Conditioned responses can be overcome, and almost everything you do is a conditioned response <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->Stick with it! If I can do this you can do this.
PostId: 40714286
Number: 277
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 4:13:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 4:13:00 PM
"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."
I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?
PostId: 40715107
Number: 278
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 5:27:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 5:27:00 PM
"
As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect.
"
You are not untrained, at this point. It's different when you are an utter beginner just learning to even pay attention and sit for 30 minutes. At your level, you have noticed you don't like this movie. You have noticed you don't like certain mindstates. There's a very interesting experience to be had: when you feel that awfulness, tension, anxiety, paranoia, pain, etc - imagine you are in a kayak without oars, being carried down a turbulent river. The boat swirls and bounces and jolts this way and that. You want so badly to control it! But try something. Try imagining just flowing with that discomfort. Allow it to carry you along, bouncing, jolting, swirling, heaving and tossing. Just sit back in the kayak, close your eyes, and let the crazy rapids carry the kayak along. It takes courage to let go of trying to control it or wanting to control it. Just trust that it is going where it is going and there's nothing you can do about it. Your mind and body may tremble and fret and twitch and ache, but you won't die. You'll just bounce and swirl along. Relax into the chaos and unpleasantness, and let it do its thing all by itself. See what happens. The whole process of these difficult periods is one that calls for release, relaxing, and surrender. Find the courage to trust that this difficult and unpleasant state serves a very important purpose. Allow it to run its course rather than fighting with it. In fact, the more you fight it, the more you interfere with it running its courrse! It's a very interesting experiment to try letting go and allowing it to be just as it is! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->PostId: 40715232
Number: 279
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 9/25/2011 5:36:00 PM
EditDate: 9/25/2011 5:36:00 PM
Re: the childhood responses of wanting to please authority and so on - we all have such baggage. I was a big teacher's pet type, too, always wanting to get that gold star. Don't worry about it. You don't need to fix that in order to make progress in your practice. It will fix itself in time. You are aware of it, and that is important. You can notice when you are reacting from that place, and smile at yourself for playing an old game out of habit. No need to try to eradicate it or destroy it. It will gradually become less and less important simply by your noticing it, and giving it a gentle smile. What a funny habit! There it goes again!
PostId: 40727536
Number: 280
Subject: RE: Settling
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 9/26/2011 8:58:00 PM
EditDate: 9/26/2011 8:58:00 PM
"
"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."
I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?
"
I think giragirasol has helped answer this question--trying to please others means you never grow up enough to know what it is you need. I do try to think of it just as a peculiar habit, something that keeps manifesting itself over and over, not an intention on my part.
At this point I am just wanting to get back to my practice. Spent the day in a state of grey depression, unfocused, low energy. Sat for half an hour at the local meditation center. It felt pretty good. A panoramic focus seems to help the most, with some noting here and there but not an effort at doing it for the entire sit. I felt myself sinking, not really even into dreamlike states, but deeper relaxation, some of it accompanied by bouts of paranoia. I didn't notice any vibrations until closer to the end of the time. Some restlessness as well. I am not worried any more, just letting it be, although I miss being in equanimity and want to get back there. The fatigue and depression may have to do with the week I just had as well as my not spending enough time practicing.
12 years 9 months ago #93824
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 40799520
Number: 291
Subject: RE: Back in Dukkhas
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/3/2011 9:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/3/2011 9:49:00 PM
Joel, I'm constantly inspired by your dedication as well. We're both in the same boat, with families and jobs. At the moment I'm working all evening, which I would dearly love not to have to do. Oh well.
Got in half an hour of jhana practice late afternoon, and was nodding a lot, but not actually sleeping (I don't think . . . then again, who knows?). I had about five minutes of nice absorption, and a lot of climbing back on the proverbial horse again.
Rob, the "factory" analogy is priceless. I'm going to quote from the Dipa Ma book: "A simple moment . . , an instantaneous transition took place, so quiet and delicate, that it seemed as if nothing at all had happened . . . in it her life had been profoundly and irrevocably transformed."
PostId: 40803428
Number: 292
Subject: RE: Back in Dukkhas
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/4/2011 11:42:00 AM
EditDate: 10/4/2011 11:42:00 AM
40 mins. this a.m., tired, some dreaminess, gentle vibrations. Overall refreshing. One itch that I noticed, but it didn't lead anywhere. Everything very mellow.
PostId: 40813190
Number: 293
Subject: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/5/2011 10:37:00 AM
EditDate: 10/5/2011 10:37:00 AM
I woke up in the night and couldn't get back to sleep. I finally caught on to the fact that I was getting sucked into speculation and rumination about work stuff, so I got up and meditated. Set the timer for 40 mins., continued on at least 20 after that, did about half an hour of walking meditation and then sat for 40 minutes more. So I had myself a nice mini-retreat in the middle of the night! <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) --> I was smart enough to sleep in a bit this morning, though.
After a lengthy period of establishing samadhi and letting myself become more and more focused, I experienced another lengthy period of very harsh itches and vibrations on my face. These eventually tapered off to fine vibrations in the upper body. I tended to do some thinking throughout this process of whether or not I was traveling up the path in any discernible way; after awhile noted this thinking. I'm getting better at letting thoughts happen and just noting them rather than trying to get them to stop. There were no dukkhas that I could tell, some sleepiness but not much.
I finally decided to walk would be a good thing, to bring my focus to my lower body, so I got up and did the walking meditation. Remained focused through this, but was a bit unbalanced. The floor didn't exactly sway under my feet, but I wasn't steady. I used my feet on the floor as my anchor.
Sat again, this time clearer, more vibrations in upper torso and arms. It was more relaxed in general than the previous sitting. After the timer went off, I went to sleep easily.
PostId: 40853036
Number: 294
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/9/2011 8:56:00 AM
EditDate: 10/9/2011 8:56:00 AM
I hadn't meditated since that night of lost sleep until this morning, 45 minutes. In the meantime I've suffered from relentless insomnia and overwork. I have not been able to use the time awake at night to meditate since Wednesday. I don't know why, but I'm moving on.
This morning: lots of sleepiness, but also fine vibrations. Got restless, checked the timer, almost bailed, but kept on with it. Off cushion: got depressed for a couple of days over bad stuff from three years ago resurfacing. Had some unwelcome reminders of an extremely painful time in my marriage. Talked it out, feeling okay now. I don't think this was a return of DN stuff. Meditation was basically pleasant, although sleepy.
PostId: 40859221
Number: 295
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/9/2011 6:48:00 PM
EditDate: 10/9/2011 6:48:00 PM
Tried to meditate again, but it's just too sad right now. A long-time member of our choir didn't show up for practice Wednesday night, which was unlike him. Then he failed to show up in church this morning, and he was supposed to read the lesson. So a small group went to his place, and you can probably guess the rest. There was no warning at all. His dog was badly dehydrated, and possibly won't make it. His place is right across the street from the church; my husband was tending the dog out on the front lawn, trying to help her drink something. It was pitiful to watch. She is being treated at the vet's.
It's as if the sight of that poor little dog is an excruciating portal into all the dumb, innocent, uncomprehending suffering in this world. I can't stop crying, and at the same time I am aware of a luxuriance to the sadness, a kind of wallowing in it. But other stuff happened this weekend--it's been a hard weekend--that brought up unbearable pain from the not-too-distant past. Talking about it makes it "my" story all over again, and the luxuriance intensifies. I don't want that.
I've been trying to follow the thread asking, what if this is all there is. I can't get my mind around what people are now saying. The only way of being I really understand is developmental. Yet here is Bob, suddenly gone. In a few days the hole in the fabric of reality will close up and there will be no more sense of a "now" with Bob in it. There won't even be a sense of an absence. The only reality of Bob will be a past of which he is vaguely remebered as being a part.
Number: 291
Subject: RE: Back in Dukkhas
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/3/2011 9:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/3/2011 9:49:00 PM
Joel, I'm constantly inspired by your dedication as well. We're both in the same boat, with families and jobs. At the moment I'm working all evening, which I would dearly love not to have to do. Oh well.
Got in half an hour of jhana practice late afternoon, and was nodding a lot, but not actually sleeping (I don't think . . . then again, who knows?). I had about five minutes of nice absorption, and a lot of climbing back on the proverbial horse again.
Rob, the "factory" analogy is priceless. I'm going to quote from the Dipa Ma book: "A simple moment . . , an instantaneous transition took place, so quiet and delicate, that it seemed as if nothing at all had happened . . . in it her life had been profoundly and irrevocably transformed."
PostId: 40803428
Number: 292
Subject: RE: Back in Dukkhas
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/4/2011 11:42:00 AM
EditDate: 10/4/2011 11:42:00 AM
40 mins. this a.m., tired, some dreaminess, gentle vibrations. Overall refreshing. One itch that I noticed, but it didn't lead anywhere. Everything very mellow.
PostId: 40813190
Number: 293
Subject: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/5/2011 10:37:00 AM
EditDate: 10/5/2011 10:37:00 AM
I woke up in the night and couldn't get back to sleep. I finally caught on to the fact that I was getting sucked into speculation and rumination about work stuff, so I got up and meditated. Set the timer for 40 mins., continued on at least 20 after that, did about half an hour of walking meditation and then sat for 40 minutes more. So I had myself a nice mini-retreat in the middle of the night! <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) --> I was smart enough to sleep in a bit this morning, though.After a lengthy period of establishing samadhi and letting myself become more and more focused, I experienced another lengthy period of very harsh itches and vibrations on my face. These eventually tapered off to fine vibrations in the upper body. I tended to do some thinking throughout this process of whether or not I was traveling up the path in any discernible way; after awhile noted this thinking. I'm getting better at letting thoughts happen and just noting them rather than trying to get them to stop. There were no dukkhas that I could tell, some sleepiness but not much.
I finally decided to walk would be a good thing, to bring my focus to my lower body, so I got up and did the walking meditation. Remained focused through this, but was a bit unbalanced. The floor didn't exactly sway under my feet, but I wasn't steady. I used my feet on the floor as my anchor.
Sat again, this time clearer, more vibrations in upper torso and arms. It was more relaxed in general than the previous sitting. After the timer went off, I went to sleep easily.
PostId: 40853036
Number: 294
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/9/2011 8:56:00 AM
EditDate: 10/9/2011 8:56:00 AM
I hadn't meditated since that night of lost sleep until this morning, 45 minutes. In the meantime I've suffered from relentless insomnia and overwork. I have not been able to use the time awake at night to meditate since Wednesday. I don't know why, but I'm moving on.
This morning: lots of sleepiness, but also fine vibrations. Got restless, checked the timer, almost bailed, but kept on with it. Off cushion: got depressed for a couple of days over bad stuff from three years ago resurfacing. Had some unwelcome reminders of an extremely painful time in my marriage. Talked it out, feeling okay now. I don't think this was a return of DN stuff. Meditation was basically pleasant, although sleepy.
PostId: 40859221
Number: 295
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/9/2011 6:48:00 PM
EditDate: 10/9/2011 6:48:00 PM
Tried to meditate again, but it's just too sad right now. A long-time member of our choir didn't show up for practice Wednesday night, which was unlike him. Then he failed to show up in church this morning, and he was supposed to read the lesson. So a small group went to his place, and you can probably guess the rest. There was no warning at all. His dog was badly dehydrated, and possibly won't make it. His place is right across the street from the church; my husband was tending the dog out on the front lawn, trying to help her drink something. It was pitiful to watch. She is being treated at the vet's.
It's as if the sight of that poor little dog is an excruciating portal into all the dumb, innocent, uncomprehending suffering in this world. I can't stop crying, and at the same time I am aware of a luxuriance to the sadness, a kind of wallowing in it. But other stuff happened this weekend--it's been a hard weekend--that brought up unbearable pain from the not-too-distant past. Talking about it makes it "my" story all over again, and the luxuriance intensifies. I don't want that.
I've been trying to follow the thread asking, what if this is all there is. I can't get my mind around what people are now saying. The only way of being I really understand is developmental. Yet here is Bob, suddenly gone. In a few days the hole in the fabric of reality will close up and there will be no more sense of a "now" with Bob in it. There won't even be a sense of an absence. The only reality of Bob will be a past of which he is vaguely remebered as being a part.
12 years 9 months ago #93827
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 40906060
Number: 306
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/14/2011 7:25:00 AM
EditDate: 10/14/2011 7:25:00 AM
It's wonderful to hear from you, Liam. I hope you have a fruitful meeting; it's in a day or two, right? I wish I could fly across the pond and join you.
I've been cylcing back and forth from Re-ob to low equianimity, and it's been a bit of a slog. My workload is crushing me at the moment, and I can't sleep more than 5 1/2-6 hours a night. I'm seriously thinking of cutting back, but won't be able to do that until next year. But even a decision to drop a course would ease my mind. I'm working on it.
Sit yesterday for 30 mins., was nothing special. Just now, 45 mins. Lots of thinking, thinking, thinking as I got settled. Then noting, then a few itches, some muscle tension, then fine vibrations, sleepiness. I'm wondering if with the lack of sleep I would be better off making every effort at meditating/napping during the day (maybe both together!). It's restful to get into samadhi, more so than spinning my wheels, which I'm tempted to do far too much these days.
I have a five-day retreat scheduled for late January at a local retreat center, with Rebecca Bradshaw. While I'm looking forward to that, it feels like a long time to wait. I don't know how many half-days or daylongs I'll be able to get to with the need to work over the weekends to keep up. Maybe Thanksgiving weekend.
PostId: 40941654
Number: 307
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 9:39:00 AM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 9:39:00 AM
I've been meditating off and on over the past few days. Friday at around noontime I was at a stopping point with my work, and instead of taking up another task I decided to take 30 mins. and focus. It was beautiful. I need to do it every day. Of course, I blew off some things I "ought" to have been doing, but it was worth it.
Have had a couple of sessions since, all about the same: some sleepiness & dream imagery, followed by vibrations. This morning just before the timer went off started to get some itches, but had to get a move on. It might have been interesting to keep going if I could.
I've been alternating between low equanimity and reobservation for quite some time now. I don't know how soon I'll be able to break out of this pattern; it depends on how much time I'm willing and able to carve out, which is not always easy. Distractions are as much of a problem as anything else these days. My usual response to overwork is to look for any way possible to avoid settling down and getting things done. Yesterday I had grading to do; I got through about half of it and read a novel. Stupid. But that's the way I am. I'm wondering at what point these old patterns will change. I have to be patient; I've already changed a great deal; I'm not the person I was a year ago.
One unfortunate source of distraction is this forum, especially when there are conflicts. I tend to follow such threads avidly. I suppose the controversies replace my former obsession with political websites. I am trying to be aware of the charge that conflict carries for me, but even with awareness I find it hard to resist. Every time I go there, the decision to get involved reinforces the habit. There's a reward structure in the brain that's being activated. Of course it reinforces the constructed self--"I" think this, "I" don't like that.
PostId: 40942331
Number: 308
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 12:17:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 12:17:00 PM
"One unfortunate source of distraction is this forum, especially when there are conflicts. I tend to follow such threads avidly. I suppose the controversies replace my former obsession with political websites. "
Ha! Sorry to laugh, but I know exactly where you're coming from. All weekend, I was thinking "No, don't look at KFD, don't at KFD, you're just rubbernecking". Of course I looked anyways. I've reflected lately that I may have just traded in an obsession with Daily Kos for an obsession with this. (And for me it is extra-stupid since I am not even American!)
It's very hard to be a political junkie and a Buddhist <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . I've found a better balance in the last few months- even during the intensity and excitement of a Canadian election [no jokes about "intensity and excitement" vs. "Canadian", please <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ]. But it's still a pull.
PostId: 40942601
Number: 309
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 1:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 1:50:00 PM
[Part 1]
On another note:
Try not to let yourself rule out equanimity (or even stream entry) due to external commitments.
While my experience isn't really comparable to your current situation, my last switch from Re-observation to EQ prior to stream entry happened at a time when I assumed it could not be done.
I had a potentially-contentious 3-day family visit, when I would have no time to meditate, right when I was feeling some flaming dukkha nanas.
So I said to myself, "I won't be able to practice; I just KNOW that my most selfish, bitter, and whiny internal voices will be in full swing. I will just try to stay with the situation, and make an effort to be as helpful and supportive to others as I can".
To my surprise, when the visit was over, my dukkha nanas had vanished- so much so that I was actually kind of confused and aimless. I simply could not find it in myself to feel "bad" (nor "good" either... just... "fine"!). No sitting was involved. I sometimes wonder if it was the resolution to roll with the punches for a couple of days made the difference.
What I'm saying is: try to resist that feeling of "oh well, I guess I am putting it off until later". Literally anything can happen. Maybe you can find some kind of positive resolution that's in line with your current circumstances, that can stand in for beating yourself up for not practicing enough!
[continued...]
PostId: 40942603
Number: 310
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 1:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 1:50:00 PM
[continued from above]
Also- this may not apply to you, but it does for me- there can be a powerful but subtle predisposition to look for faults, for reasons to "fail", for bad feelings in the body. To this day, I find meditation often brings on tension rather than calm, and I think this is because I just have so much trouble *not* constantly taking my temperature and looking for what is wrong.
In that story I just told, I think that, with that resolution, I accidentally short-circuited- at just the right moment- my tendency to accentuate the negative.
Number: 306
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/14/2011 7:25:00 AM
EditDate: 10/14/2011 7:25:00 AM
It's wonderful to hear from you, Liam. I hope you have a fruitful meeting; it's in a day or two, right? I wish I could fly across the pond and join you.
I've been cylcing back and forth from Re-ob to low equianimity, and it's been a bit of a slog. My workload is crushing me at the moment, and I can't sleep more than 5 1/2-6 hours a night. I'm seriously thinking of cutting back, but won't be able to do that until next year. But even a decision to drop a course would ease my mind. I'm working on it.
Sit yesterday for 30 mins., was nothing special. Just now, 45 mins. Lots of thinking, thinking, thinking as I got settled. Then noting, then a few itches, some muscle tension, then fine vibrations, sleepiness. I'm wondering if with the lack of sleep I would be better off making every effort at meditating/napping during the day (maybe both together!). It's restful to get into samadhi, more so than spinning my wheels, which I'm tempted to do far too much these days.
I have a five-day retreat scheduled for late January at a local retreat center, with Rebecca Bradshaw. While I'm looking forward to that, it feels like a long time to wait. I don't know how many half-days or daylongs I'll be able to get to with the need to work over the weekends to keep up. Maybe Thanksgiving weekend.
PostId: 40941654
Number: 307
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 9:39:00 AM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 9:39:00 AM
I've been meditating off and on over the past few days. Friday at around noontime I was at a stopping point with my work, and instead of taking up another task I decided to take 30 mins. and focus. It was beautiful. I need to do it every day. Of course, I blew off some things I "ought" to have been doing, but it was worth it.
Have had a couple of sessions since, all about the same: some sleepiness & dream imagery, followed by vibrations. This morning just before the timer went off started to get some itches, but had to get a move on. It might have been interesting to keep going if I could.
I've been alternating between low equanimity and reobservation for quite some time now. I don't know how soon I'll be able to break out of this pattern; it depends on how much time I'm willing and able to carve out, which is not always easy. Distractions are as much of a problem as anything else these days. My usual response to overwork is to look for any way possible to avoid settling down and getting things done. Yesterday I had grading to do; I got through about half of it and read a novel. Stupid. But that's the way I am. I'm wondering at what point these old patterns will change. I have to be patient; I've already changed a great deal; I'm not the person I was a year ago.
One unfortunate source of distraction is this forum, especially when there are conflicts. I tend to follow such threads avidly. I suppose the controversies replace my former obsession with political websites. I am trying to be aware of the charge that conflict carries for me, but even with awareness I find it hard to resist. Every time I go there, the decision to get involved reinforces the habit. There's a reward structure in the brain that's being activated. Of course it reinforces the constructed self--"I" think this, "I" don't like that.
PostId: 40942331
Number: 308
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 12:17:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 12:17:00 PM
"One unfortunate source of distraction is this forum, especially when there are conflicts. I tend to follow such threads avidly. I suppose the controversies replace my former obsession with political websites. "
Ha! Sorry to laugh, but I know exactly where you're coming from. All weekend, I was thinking "No, don't look at KFD, don't at KFD, you're just rubbernecking". Of course I looked anyways. I've reflected lately that I may have just traded in an obsession with Daily Kos for an obsession with this. (And for me it is extra-stupid since I am not even American!)
It's very hard to be a political junkie and a Buddhist <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . I've found a better balance in the last few months- even during the intensity and excitement of a Canadian election [no jokes about "intensity and excitement" vs. "Canadian", please <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ]. But it's still a pull.PostId: 40942601
Number: 309
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 1:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 1:50:00 PM
[Part 1]
On another note:
Try not to let yourself rule out equanimity (or even stream entry) due to external commitments.
While my experience isn't really comparable to your current situation, my last switch from Re-observation to EQ prior to stream entry happened at a time when I assumed it could not be done.
I had a potentially-contentious 3-day family visit, when I would have no time to meditate, right when I was feeling some flaming dukkha nanas.
So I said to myself, "I won't be able to practice; I just KNOW that my most selfish, bitter, and whiny internal voices will be in full swing. I will just try to stay with the situation, and make an effort to be as helpful and supportive to others as I can".
To my surprise, when the visit was over, my dukkha nanas had vanished- so much so that I was actually kind of confused and aimless. I simply could not find it in myself to feel "bad" (nor "good" either... just... "fine"!). No sitting was involved. I sometimes wonder if it was the resolution to roll with the punches for a couple of days made the difference.
What I'm saying is: try to resist that feeling of "oh well, I guess I am putting it off until later". Literally anything can happen. Maybe you can find some kind of positive resolution that's in line with your current circumstances, that can stand in for beating yourself up for not practicing enough!
[continued...]
PostId: 40942603
Number: 310
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 10/17/2011 1:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/17/2011 1:50:00 PM
[continued from above]
Also- this may not apply to you, but it does for me- there can be a powerful but subtle predisposition to look for faults, for reasons to "fail", for bad feelings in the body. To this day, I find meditation often brings on tension rather than calm, and I think this is because I just have so much trouble *not* constantly taking my temperature and looking for what is wrong.
In that story I just told, I think that, with that resolution, I accidentally short-circuited- at just the right moment- my tendency to accentuate the negative.
12 years 9 months ago #93830
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41044302
Number: 321
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:34:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:34:00 PM
It would be easy to say, at least I can take refuge in my meditation, I am above all this stuff, I know better. But I'd be putting on yet another pose. So what I'm doing is watching myself while all of this unfolds yet again, investigating it with compassion. There's the thrill of fear that hits the midsection when I think I've made a gaffe, or the nagging sense of envy when I look at someone else's recently published book, or the sense of loneliness and abandonment when I find myself alone with no one asking me to lunch, or the sense of wanting to get away from everyone and hide.
And then there's what's going on in meditation. I began on the flight, as we were landing, and the pressure in my ears was unbearable because of my headcold. I just kept focusing on that pain, watching it break up and reconstitute itself, observing it, moving to other sensations in the body, and then as we taxied into the gate watching the pavement pass by, noticing each detail. Last evening I meditated for about 25 minutes, making it through the same stages as the other day, but stopping when the itches kicked in. I told myself that between the fatigue and the misery of the headcold I just plain couldn't hack any more discomfort.
This morning, 45 minutes: this was a pleasant session, actually, with lots of tingling and vibrating, no itches to speak of. There was a dreaminess from time to time, but nothing extreme. This afternoon, another 45 minutes, quite similar, although there was more restlessness because of the day I'd just been through. I also had a wave of sadness pass over me, and asked the question Beth asked me the other day, who is this happening to? I don't perceive that there is anyone.
I am beginning to think that what I really need to do is settle down for longer sits, an hour or longer if I can manage it. That and continue to investigate during the day.
PostId: 41044399
Number: 322
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:45:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:45:00 PM
Life takes over, as in I don't do all the things I thought I wanted to do, or had resolved to do. I know that I have not put anywhere near as much time and energy into my research as many other people, and that if I had, I would have more to show for myself, more things on my c.v. In my profession, that is where the status is. I have tried to figure out for years why I haven't just buckled down and done it; the question has gnawed at me over and over. And I realize that in the process of trying so hard to answer it, I'm creating narratives about myself, one after another, and none of them really amounts to anything substantial or satisfying.
I don't want to think of the dharma as yet another narrative, although it's tempting to do. I also don't think I can say I'm beyond narratives, because I'm not. But I can say now that in meditating I'm trying to do something different. I have sat with the "problem" and tried thinking my way through it forever and ever and ever and I'm not going to succeed at that. But today I did in fact sit with the "problem" in meditation and I felt sadness, and the ache in the throat and the stinging in the eyes, and I noted, "sadness, sadness." And it wasn't happening to anyone in particular that I could locate. And that is, in fact, different.
I don't know what will happen with it. I caught myself earlier today thinking, either I'm going to go home and put a lot of effort into research and writing, or else I'm going to quit, and then I thought, there's a third option: why don't you just keep on with your practice and see what happens? Because you really don't know what you're going to do, when you get home, or even before that. That's something different as well.
PostId: 41044570
Number: 323
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:59:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:59:00 PM
I know all those things, Laurel. It's difficult to get outside of them but then that's why we sit. My guess is that you are driven by expectations, much like I am, so you need to be extra compassionate with yourself. Maybe you can ask yourself not just who is this happening to, but who is expecting all of this.... stuff? Why does't it happen as you see it happening in your thought loops? To whom does it matter? Does it really matter?
I tend to have issues with people in authority, and I tend to grant authority to people, sometimes almost randomly, so I can then have an authority to generate expectations. Mind then generates internal voices that tell me what expectations I'm supposed to live up to, and not living up to them makes me feel guilty. Quite absurdly guilty. Anticipating not living up to those expectations generates anxiety. Absurdly high levels of anxiety. The realization that the voices aren't me and that all of that stuff arises and passes and is unsatisfactory and out of my control (no one can control or predict their thoughts) slowly takes hold and over time the stuff has less grip on me.
PostId: 41044584
Number: 324
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 7:00:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 7:00:00 PM
Oh yeah, I like your third option <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->
PostId: 41045724
Number: 325
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 8:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 8:49:00 PM
@JLaurelC I agree with Chris. Expectations are like protocols. The narratives have characters and the characters follow protocols. These take us, little by little, into anxiety, euphoria, anger, sadness, etc. Here are the good news that seem like bad news: the protocols are like machines, they are processes, they are mechanic. How do mechanisms work? Well, usually they dont care about right intention, right effort, etc. They just happen. So one might say "well this just sucks, can't I just change the mechanics and be healthy?". A common trap is to judge the whole thing, wage war on narratives, characters we incarnate and their protocols. But when we investigate these phenomena, we dissect them and see they are just processes and not solid beings. Ironically, by providing conscious space (through sitting and investigating), the processes liberate themselves effortlessly. Space is awareness that is respectful, it is awareness that allows the existence of protocols, without feeding or suppresing them. How does one provide basic space? Sitting with the protocols, and let them soak for a while like Chris says. One could investigate like this, for example: if you find sadness and note "sadness", you could also note the components of sadness AND all the stuff that isn't sadness (the rest of your body parts, and the rest of mental phenomena for example). I let the noting expand itself, I dont exclude unpleasant sensations, I just expand my noting and surrender little by little. Then things seem to want to change and what I do is LET them change. In the past I wouldn't allow change. I would feed the narrative to be someone or something. One feeds unpleasantness through being picky, we tend to note just unpleasant (or pleasant) sensations and that treats the phenomenon like an existing entity. If, on the other hand, you note unpleasant feelings along with pleasant and neutral, simultaneously, selectiveness ends and energy spreads out.
Number: 321
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:34:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:34:00 PM
It would be easy to say, at least I can take refuge in my meditation, I am above all this stuff, I know better. But I'd be putting on yet another pose. So what I'm doing is watching myself while all of this unfolds yet again, investigating it with compassion. There's the thrill of fear that hits the midsection when I think I've made a gaffe, or the nagging sense of envy when I look at someone else's recently published book, or the sense of loneliness and abandonment when I find myself alone with no one asking me to lunch, or the sense of wanting to get away from everyone and hide.
And then there's what's going on in meditation. I began on the flight, as we were landing, and the pressure in my ears was unbearable because of my headcold. I just kept focusing on that pain, watching it break up and reconstitute itself, observing it, moving to other sensations in the body, and then as we taxied into the gate watching the pavement pass by, noticing each detail. Last evening I meditated for about 25 minutes, making it through the same stages as the other day, but stopping when the itches kicked in. I told myself that between the fatigue and the misery of the headcold I just plain couldn't hack any more discomfort.
This morning, 45 minutes: this was a pleasant session, actually, with lots of tingling and vibrating, no itches to speak of. There was a dreaminess from time to time, but nothing extreme. This afternoon, another 45 minutes, quite similar, although there was more restlessness because of the day I'd just been through. I also had a wave of sadness pass over me, and asked the question Beth asked me the other day, who is this happening to? I don't perceive that there is anyone.
I am beginning to think that what I really need to do is settle down for longer sits, an hour or longer if I can manage it. That and continue to investigate during the day.
PostId: 41044399
Number: 322
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:45:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:45:00 PM
Life takes over, as in I don't do all the things I thought I wanted to do, or had resolved to do. I know that I have not put anywhere near as much time and energy into my research as many other people, and that if I had, I would have more to show for myself, more things on my c.v. In my profession, that is where the status is. I have tried to figure out for years why I haven't just buckled down and done it; the question has gnawed at me over and over. And I realize that in the process of trying so hard to answer it, I'm creating narratives about myself, one after another, and none of them really amounts to anything substantial or satisfying.
I don't want to think of the dharma as yet another narrative, although it's tempting to do. I also don't think I can say I'm beyond narratives, because I'm not. But I can say now that in meditating I'm trying to do something different. I have sat with the "problem" and tried thinking my way through it forever and ever and ever and I'm not going to succeed at that. But today I did in fact sit with the "problem" in meditation and I felt sadness, and the ache in the throat and the stinging in the eyes, and I noted, "sadness, sadness." And it wasn't happening to anyone in particular that I could locate. And that is, in fact, different.
I don't know what will happen with it. I caught myself earlier today thinking, either I'm going to go home and put a lot of effort into research and writing, or else I'm going to quit, and then I thought, there's a third option: why don't you just keep on with your practice and see what happens? Because you really don't know what you're going to do, when you get home, or even before that. That's something different as well.
PostId: 41044570
Number: 323
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 6:59:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 6:59:00 PM
I know all those things, Laurel. It's difficult to get outside of them but then that's why we sit. My guess is that you are driven by expectations, much like I am, so you need to be extra compassionate with yourself. Maybe you can ask yourself not just who is this happening to, but who is expecting all of this.... stuff? Why does't it happen as you see it happening in your thought loops? To whom does it matter? Does it really matter?
I tend to have issues with people in authority, and I tend to grant authority to people, sometimes almost randomly, so I can then have an authority to generate expectations. Mind then generates internal voices that tell me what expectations I'm supposed to live up to, and not living up to them makes me feel guilty. Quite absurdly guilty. Anticipating not living up to those expectations generates anxiety. Absurdly high levels of anxiety. The realization that the voices aren't me and that all of that stuff arises and passes and is unsatisfactory and out of my control (no one can control or predict their thoughts) slowly takes hold and over time the stuff has less grip on me.
PostId: 41044584
Number: 324
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 7:00:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 7:00:00 PM
Oh yeah, I like your third option <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->PostId: 41045724
Number: 325
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 8:49:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 8:49:00 PM
@JLaurelC I agree with Chris. Expectations are like protocols. The narratives have characters and the characters follow protocols. These take us, little by little, into anxiety, euphoria, anger, sadness, etc. Here are the good news that seem like bad news: the protocols are like machines, they are processes, they are mechanic. How do mechanisms work? Well, usually they dont care about right intention, right effort, etc. They just happen. So one might say "well this just sucks, can't I just change the mechanics and be healthy?". A common trap is to judge the whole thing, wage war on narratives, characters we incarnate and their protocols. But when we investigate these phenomena, we dissect them and see they are just processes and not solid beings. Ironically, by providing conscious space (through sitting and investigating), the processes liberate themselves effortlessly. Space is awareness that is respectful, it is awareness that allows the existence of protocols, without feeding or suppresing them. How does one provide basic space? Sitting with the protocols, and let them soak for a while like Chris says. One could investigate like this, for example: if you find sadness and note "sadness", you could also note the components of sadness AND all the stuff that isn't sadness (the rest of your body parts, and the rest of mental phenomena for example). I let the noting expand itself, I dont exclude unpleasant sensations, I just expand my noting and surrender little by little. Then things seem to want to change and what I do is LET them change. In the past I wouldn't allow change. I would feed the narrative to be someone or something. One feeds unpleasantness through being picky, we tend to note just unpleasant (or pleasant) sensations and that treats the phenomenon like an existing entity. If, on the other hand, you note unpleasant feelings along with pleasant and neutral, simultaneously, selectiveness ends and energy spreads out.
12 years 9 months ago #93831
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41045800
Number: 326
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 8:59:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 8:59:00 PM
"
Oh yeah, I like your third option <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->
"
Ditto.
PostId: 41046589
Number: 327
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 10:06:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 10:06:00 PM
"I tend to have issues with people in authority, and I tend to grant authority to people, sometimes almost randomly, so I can then have an authority to generate expectations. Mind then generates internal voices that tell me what expectations I'm supposed to live up to, and not living up to them makes me feel guilty. Quite absurdly guilty. Anticipating not living up to those expectations generates anxiety. Absurdly high levels of anxiety. "
This is the story of my life, in a nutshell. But as APrioriKreuz says, this is just a process, a protocol. It's what I do. I get into these situations and certain results follow, the way they always have. And one of the things that has reinforced the process over the years has been my trying to make war on it. But I am beginning to find out--and long to find out more (Desire for Deliverance, anyone?) that just sitting with it and letting it be and investigating it as a process can be liberating. It is getting better. There is a difference between equanimity, which comes from surrender, and forced indifference, which comes from running out of energy. Thanks, everyone.
PostId: 41050728
Number: 328
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 10/29/2011 1:14:00 PM
EditDate: 10/29/2011 1:14:00 PM
" There is a difference between equanimity, which comes from surrender, and forced indifference, which comes from running out of energy. Thanks, everyone. "
Nice insight Laurel !
PostId: 41050760
Number: 329
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/29/2011 1:18:00 PM
EditDate: 10/29/2011 1:18:00 PM
One of the most powerful insights I can remember having happened while I was walking to what I knew would be a very, very stressful meeting. I looked down at the sidewalk and there was a beetle, just crawling along. I'm not sure why but it popped into my head that all the anxiety I was having about the meeting was the same "stuff" as the sight of that little beetle.
Poof!
Good work, Laurel!
PostId: 41064344
Number: 330
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/30/2011 5:57:00 PM
EditDate: 10/30/2011 5:57:00 PM
Thanks, people. I'm working more and more on noting during the day. My sitting practice has reverted to more formal noting from the open-ended observation I was doing about a month ago. At the conference I managed to get in a 45 minute session each morning and evening. Last evening I noted and noted and kept alert, but not much seemed to be happening. Got some itches here and there, a sense of vibrations here and there, and then there'd be general relaxation. There seemed to be no jhanic arc going on.
I meditated for about an hour on the flight home, doing four foundations noting. The result was something similar. I discovered, though, that I was happier meditating than either reading or spinning thoughts in my head. There was only occasional mild restlessness.
I'm happy to be home. I am completely confused about where I might be on the maps, and am getting a trifle antsy about wanting to make progress, but I'm not letting myself go too far in that direction, other than to attempt to work as much as I can at my practice both on and off the cushion.
Number: 326
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 8:59:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 8:59:00 PM
"
Oh yeah, I like your third option <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->"
Ditto.
PostId: 41046589
Number: 327
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/28/2011 10:06:00 PM
EditDate: 10/28/2011 10:06:00 PM
"I tend to have issues with people in authority, and I tend to grant authority to people, sometimes almost randomly, so I can then have an authority to generate expectations. Mind then generates internal voices that tell me what expectations I'm supposed to live up to, and not living up to them makes me feel guilty. Quite absurdly guilty. Anticipating not living up to those expectations generates anxiety. Absurdly high levels of anxiety. "
This is the story of my life, in a nutshell. But as APrioriKreuz says, this is just a process, a protocol. It's what I do. I get into these situations and certain results follow, the way they always have. And one of the things that has reinforced the process over the years has been my trying to make war on it. But I am beginning to find out--and long to find out more (Desire for Deliverance, anyone?) that just sitting with it and letting it be and investigating it as a process can be liberating. It is getting better. There is a difference between equanimity, which comes from surrender, and forced indifference, which comes from running out of energy. Thanks, everyone.
PostId: 41050728
Number: 328
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 10/29/2011 1:14:00 PM
EditDate: 10/29/2011 1:14:00 PM
" There is a difference between equanimity, which comes from surrender, and forced indifference, which comes from running out of energy. Thanks, everyone. "
Nice insight Laurel !
PostId: 41050760
Number: 329
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 10/29/2011 1:18:00 PM
EditDate: 10/29/2011 1:18:00 PM
One of the most powerful insights I can remember having happened while I was walking to what I knew would be a very, very stressful meeting. I looked down at the sidewalk and there was a beetle, just crawling along. I'm not sure why but it popped into my head that all the anxiety I was having about the meeting was the same "stuff" as the sight of that little beetle.
Poof!
Good work, Laurel!
PostId: 41064344
Number: 330
Subject: RE: moving on
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 10/30/2011 5:57:00 PM
EditDate: 10/30/2011 5:57:00 PM
Thanks, people. I'm working more and more on noting during the day. My sitting practice has reverted to more formal noting from the open-ended observation I was doing about a month ago. At the conference I managed to get in a 45 minute session each morning and evening. Last evening I noted and noted and kept alert, but not much seemed to be happening. Got some itches here and there, a sense of vibrations here and there, and then there'd be general relaxation. There seemed to be no jhanic arc going on.
I meditated for about an hour on the flight home, doing four foundations noting. The result was something similar. I discovered, though, that I was happier meditating than either reading or spinning thoughts in my head. There was only occasional mild restlessness.
I'm happy to be home. I am completely confused about where I might be on the maps, and am getting a trifle antsy about wanting to make progress, but I'm not letting myself go too far in that direction, other than to attempt to work as much as I can at my practice both on and off the cushion.
12 years 9 months ago #93837
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41272197
Number: 356
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 12:23:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 12:23:00 PM
By the way, I don't know if the language of my post makes it clear, but I totally sympathize! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
PostId: 41276998
Number: 357
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: ricketybridge
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 7:50:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 7:50:00 PM
Hey Laurel,
It sounds like you're dealing (or dealt) with a lot of worry and restlessness, which is one of the 5 hindrances, and I'm going to bring up what I mentioned on my own practice thread: that, at least from what I've read so far, the Buddha never said not to try to get rid of your worry and restlessness. Wanting to get away from worry and restlessness isn't wrong; it's merely the desire to cultivate dispassion (which is a "good" desire; born from aversion, I suppose, but in that case you could argue that Buddha's encouragement to focus on the drawbacks of sensual pleasure is merely the drumming up of aversion).
Anyhow, the antidote to worry and restlessness is serenity via the jhanas, which you appear to have experience with. Buddha has four additional steps for getting rid of hindrances if the "antidote" doesn't work (these are my summaries of what is more extensively iterated here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html "> www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html):
2. Focus on the drawbacks of that defilement.
3. Stop paying attention to them.
4. Relax thought-fabrication.
5. Crush the mind with awareness.
If you try it, hope it helps! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
-rickety
PostId: 41278247
Number: 358
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 9:26:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 9:26:00 PM
I do so appreciate everybody's advice and support! I guess what's weird about my situation is that most of my misery is off-cushion; on the cushion I'm having the alternation between dreaminess and vibrations. It's really rather relaxing. I'm thinking my other business may have to do with brain chemistry rather than my place on the path, but I can't be sure. I'm going to be Skyping with Beth tomorrow, so I'll be sure to talk it through.
PostId: 41289861
Number: 359
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/22/2011 8:58:00 PM
EditDate: 11/22/2011 8:58:00 PM
I had my Skype session today with Beth; she directed me to focus on the body, and we did Mahamudra noting for awhile, responding to the pain of the anxiety with compassion. I ended up in tears, which I didn't expect. It was as if the focus of sensation moved from the midsection up into the throat and the eyes. What I thought was anger and fear turned into sadness; I surrendered into the sadness, and continued to note "compassion." So that's how to drop the hot coal.
I am working on meditating as much as possible and in the meantime practicing mindfulness off the cushion. I need to ramp up the momentum, now that I'm reminded of what suffering is like. I meditated this afternoon but was interrupted three times, by my husband coming home, the phone ringing, and my son coming home. But I got another 45 minutes in this evening. It was kind of a snooze fest, but I noted pretty consistently until the last 10 minutes or so. I think I felt myself ascending through the nyanas, certainly into fear, disgust (missed misery, alas) and then into some ratchety vibrations that felt like reobservation, at which point I seem to have passed into dreamland. Beth says not to be too concerned over twilight sleep but just notice it happening. I do feel more refreshed.
PostId: 41294081
Number: 360
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 11/23/2011 3:18:00 AM
EditDate: 11/23/2011 3:18:00 AM
Sounds like progress Laurel !
Number: 356
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 12:23:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 12:23:00 PM
By the way, I don't know if the language of my post makes it clear, but I totally sympathize! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->PostId: 41276998
Number: 357
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: ricketybridge
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 7:50:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 7:50:00 PM
Hey Laurel,
It sounds like you're dealing (or dealt) with a lot of worry and restlessness, which is one of the 5 hindrances, and I'm going to bring up what I mentioned on my own practice thread: that, at least from what I've read so far, the Buddha never said not to try to get rid of your worry and restlessness. Wanting to get away from worry and restlessness isn't wrong; it's merely the desire to cultivate dispassion (which is a "good" desire; born from aversion, I suppose, but in that case you could argue that Buddha's encouragement to focus on the drawbacks of sensual pleasure is merely the drumming up of aversion).
Anyhow, the antidote to worry and restlessness is serenity via the jhanas, which you appear to have experience with. Buddha has four additional steps for getting rid of hindrances if the "antidote" doesn't work (these are my summaries of what is more extensively iterated here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html "> www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html):
2. Focus on the drawbacks of that defilement.
3. Stop paying attention to them.
4. Relax thought-fabrication.
5. Crush the mind with awareness.
If you try it, hope it helps! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->-rickety
PostId: 41278247
Number: 358
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/21/2011 9:26:00 PM
EditDate: 11/21/2011 9:26:00 PM
I do so appreciate everybody's advice and support! I guess what's weird about my situation is that most of my misery is off-cushion; on the cushion I'm having the alternation between dreaminess and vibrations. It's really rather relaxing. I'm thinking my other business may have to do with brain chemistry rather than my place on the path, but I can't be sure. I'm going to be Skyping with Beth tomorrow, so I'll be sure to talk it through.
PostId: 41289861
Number: 359
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/22/2011 8:58:00 PM
EditDate: 11/22/2011 8:58:00 PM
I had my Skype session today with Beth; she directed me to focus on the body, and we did Mahamudra noting for awhile, responding to the pain of the anxiety with compassion. I ended up in tears, which I didn't expect. It was as if the focus of sensation moved from the midsection up into the throat and the eyes. What I thought was anger and fear turned into sadness; I surrendered into the sadness, and continued to note "compassion." So that's how to drop the hot coal.
I am working on meditating as much as possible and in the meantime practicing mindfulness off the cushion. I need to ramp up the momentum, now that I'm reminded of what suffering is like. I meditated this afternoon but was interrupted three times, by my husband coming home, the phone ringing, and my son coming home. But I got another 45 minutes in this evening. It was kind of a snooze fest, but I noted pretty consistently until the last 10 minutes or so. I think I felt myself ascending through the nyanas, certainly into fear, disgust (missed misery, alas) and then into some ratchety vibrations that felt like reobservation, at which point I seem to have passed into dreamland. Beth says not to be too concerned over twilight sleep but just notice it happening. I do feel more refreshed.
PostId: 41294081
Number: 360
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 11/23/2011 3:18:00 AM
EditDate: 11/23/2011 3:18:00 AM
Sounds like progress Laurel !
12 years 9 months ago #93839
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41349102
Number: 366
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 4:15:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 4:15:00 AM
Hi Laurel, can you pinpoint how the fear started? notice how the senses absorbed all the information which gave rise to negative thoughts and emotions, which give rise to fear and separation from the rest of the universe. This is how the illusion of suffering/separate self is created.
It might worth re-running this during meditation.
PostId: 41349755
Number: 367
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 8:32:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 8:32:00 AM
I think it started at about 4:00 (the retreat ended at 6:00), with me planning on taking a beta blocker and becoming increasingly obsessed with when would be the right moment to take it, working up a bit of drama over disappointment that I felt I had to do that, etc. I was watching the knot begin to arise again, then thinking, then watching, then calculating, and the thought and sensation reinforced each other. By the time I got to the car I was pretty wound up.
I meditated again last night and ran some of it, and experienced the shaking and rocking that have happened a few times lately. I was still feeling the knot by the time I went to bed. Then I had another vivid dream, in which I stood up to someone who was rebuking me harshly for doing poor, substandard work. I woke up feeling awful, not wanting to meditate, but not wanting to stay in bed either. But I dragged myself off to the cushion, set the timer for 45 minutes, and got started.
What happened is that as I was focusing on the poisonous sense of tension in the midsection I began thinking of my little son. I'd gotten up in the night to use the bathroom, and heard footsteps outside the door. When I opened the door, there he was in shadow, waiting for me to come out, holding himself the way little kids do. Afterward he asked for a hug. This image flashed through my mind and I opened up my heart center, feeling compassion, vulnerability, love, and the tears started, and the poisonous knot was gone. For the rest of the session I sat in pleasant, relaxing vibrations. Thoughts slip-slided through my mind, came and went. It was good.
PostId: 41350573
Number: 368
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 10:46:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 10:47:00 AM
Laurel, you seem to be searching for some "thing" outside of you that will help relieve your anxiety. There are such things, of course. Medications help a lot of people whose brain chemistry needs a tweak. I've taken them. They do help. In regard to your practice, however, there is nothing "outside" that will help you -- no permanent experience to achieve that will overcome or overlay or remove your "issues." In your practice, in my practice, in everyone's practice there is only one way to move forward, and that is to observe and then surrender to experience. It is all just your experience and resisting it will only cause more pain and suffering. Facing those experiences is the path.
Make sense?
PostId: 41352487
Number: 369
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 1:35:00 PM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 1:35:00 PM
I'm trying to do that. In post 365 it seems I was doing the best I could at it, then in 367 as well. If there's a "thing" I'm looking for now it's stream entry. People say that one's suffering is reduced a significant amount after that, and I believe them. If I didn't think that things get better with insight, I wouldn't bother with it. I know that sounds shallow but I want things to be better not just for myself but for those around me as well. And I want to understand this strange, strange world in which I find myself, and this strange, strange self that I really don't even know any more.
In my lesson with Beth the other day, she told me to observe all these things with compassion. Every time I can do that something melts. The pain is back again, but then I go through the same thing. I am doing the best I can to surrender; I'm just trying to learn how. I no longer am thinking, why must this be happening to me? But I can't force myself not to wish it would all just go away. Talk about bleedthrough, this morning I've run the gamut from more fear to misery, disgust (nausea) and tears of desire for deliverance. I watched the whole show, felt miserable, wished I could just die already and get off this wretched whirligig, only to find myself minutes later wondering what that was all about. I see unsatisfactoriness and impermanence all around me, and I don't know what self is, so the three characteristics are becoming a default way of experiencing the world. I'm just going to keep on with it and work toward whatever breakthrough is next.
PostId: 41352665
Number: 370
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 1:51:00 PM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 1:52:00 PM
Okay. It just seemed like you had resistance going on, which in my experience, well, I already said that <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->
Beth's advice sounds right on!
Keep going!
Number: 366
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 4:15:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 4:15:00 AM
Hi Laurel, can you pinpoint how the fear started? notice how the senses absorbed all the information which gave rise to negative thoughts and emotions, which give rise to fear and separation from the rest of the universe. This is how the illusion of suffering/separate self is created.
It might worth re-running this during meditation.
PostId: 41349755
Number: 367
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 8:32:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 8:32:00 AM
I think it started at about 4:00 (the retreat ended at 6:00), with me planning on taking a beta blocker and becoming increasingly obsessed with when would be the right moment to take it, working up a bit of drama over disappointment that I felt I had to do that, etc. I was watching the knot begin to arise again, then thinking, then watching, then calculating, and the thought and sensation reinforced each other. By the time I got to the car I was pretty wound up.
I meditated again last night and ran some of it, and experienced the shaking and rocking that have happened a few times lately. I was still feeling the knot by the time I went to bed. Then I had another vivid dream, in which I stood up to someone who was rebuking me harshly for doing poor, substandard work. I woke up feeling awful, not wanting to meditate, but not wanting to stay in bed either. But I dragged myself off to the cushion, set the timer for 45 minutes, and got started.
What happened is that as I was focusing on the poisonous sense of tension in the midsection I began thinking of my little son. I'd gotten up in the night to use the bathroom, and heard footsteps outside the door. When I opened the door, there he was in shadow, waiting for me to come out, holding himself the way little kids do. Afterward he asked for a hug. This image flashed through my mind and I opened up my heart center, feeling compassion, vulnerability, love, and the tears started, and the poisonous knot was gone. For the rest of the session I sat in pleasant, relaxing vibrations. Thoughts slip-slided through my mind, came and went. It was good.
PostId: 41350573
Number: 368
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 10:46:00 AM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 10:47:00 AM
Laurel, you seem to be searching for some "thing" outside of you that will help relieve your anxiety. There are such things, of course. Medications help a lot of people whose brain chemistry needs a tweak. I've taken them. They do help. In regard to your practice, however, there is nothing "outside" that will help you -- no permanent experience to achieve that will overcome or overlay or remove your "issues." In your practice, in my practice, in everyone's practice there is only one way to move forward, and that is to observe and then surrender to experience. It is all just your experience and resisting it will only cause more pain and suffering. Facing those experiences is the path.
Make sense?
PostId: 41352487
Number: 369
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 1:35:00 PM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 1:35:00 PM
I'm trying to do that. In post 365 it seems I was doing the best I could at it, then in 367 as well. If there's a "thing" I'm looking for now it's stream entry. People say that one's suffering is reduced a significant amount after that, and I believe them. If I didn't think that things get better with insight, I wouldn't bother with it. I know that sounds shallow but I want things to be better not just for myself but for those around me as well. And I want to understand this strange, strange world in which I find myself, and this strange, strange self that I really don't even know any more.
In my lesson with Beth the other day, she told me to observe all these things with compassion. Every time I can do that something melts. The pain is back again, but then I go through the same thing. I am doing the best I can to surrender; I'm just trying to learn how. I no longer am thinking, why must this be happening to me? But I can't force myself not to wish it would all just go away. Talk about bleedthrough, this morning I've run the gamut from more fear to misery, disgust (nausea) and tears of desire for deliverance. I watched the whole show, felt miserable, wished I could just die already and get off this wretched whirligig, only to find myself minutes later wondering what that was all about. I see unsatisfactoriness and impermanence all around me, and I don't know what self is, so the three characteristics are becoming a default way of experiencing the world. I'm just going to keep on with it and work toward whatever breakthrough is next.
PostId: 41352665
Number: 370
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 11/27/2011 1:51:00 PM
EditDate: 11/27/2011 1:52:00 PM
Okay. It just seemed like you had resistance going on, which in my experience, well, I already said that <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->Beth's advice sounds right on!
Keep going!
12 years 9 months ago #93841
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41414081
Number: 376
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 12/3/2011 5:07:00 PM
EditDate: 12/3/2011 5:07:00 PM
Who has sensations?
<!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->
PostId: 41435629
Number: 377
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 2:31:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 2:31:00 PM
Good question--and one I forgot to ask. I'm back on my old meditation schedule, and yoga as well. Every so often I have to stop doing yoga in order to remind myself of why I do it. It seems as if I don't really make any progress with it, but without it, things go downhill pretty fast. So now I know.
The same seems to be the case with meditation. If life seems grim with this practice, it's hopeless without it. My sits haven't been particularly inspiring, either. I even gave up last night before the timer went off. I'm either sleepy or distracted, yet there are times when the body falls into peaceful vibrations. So I will do what I can to maintain some kind of momentum. This morning I opened my eyes a couple of times in an attempt to promote better alertness. This worked until they got heavy and closed of their own accord, at which point I lost focus for awhile. This is how it is.
PostId: 41436027
Number: 378
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 3:23:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 3:23:00 PM
"This worked until they got heavy and closed of their own accord, at which point I lost focus for awhile. This is how it is. "
"This is how it is" is a wonderful thing to notice.
PostId: 41438439
Number: 379
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 7:18:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 7:18:00 PM
""This is how it is""
... and a sense of wonder will get any of us through any sit! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
PostId: 41441836
Number: 380
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: dudeitseddy
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 12:07:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 12:07:00 AM
"
Have you tried noticing narratives? When I practice in that way, I discover lots of hidden desires that just cause trouble. Here's the technique I use:
1) I ask myself "What is happening?" to discern the plot. The answer to that question is the plot. Example: I hate my job.
2) I ask myself "Who are the characters in this story?". Then I answer: my boss, my job and myself. Notice that I consider the job a character, I do this in order to discern the dualities in the plot.
3) I look for the dualities: obnoxious boss-frustrated employee, Job/unpleasant situation-Victim of Job/unpleasant situation. I'm the employee and the victim.
4) I figure out the rules of my characters: a frustrated employee will feel, well, frustrated. It will feel helpless, angry, yearning for freedom, etc. A victim will feel disappointed, sad, angry, powerless, etc.
5) I figure out the desires of my characters: wanting to leave the job, wanting to give my boss a lesson, wanting to be happy, etc.
6) I note the desires and I realize that when I note my desires, I am not my desires. I disembed.
Let me know if this helps!"
Hey APriori, where did you find out about this technique? I'm curious to read about more things like this. I notice that sometimes I dismember through techniques I make up like these rather than just simple noting. I would really like to see more what others do.
Number: 376
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: cmarti
CreationDate: 12/3/2011 5:07:00 PM
EditDate: 12/3/2011 5:07:00 PM
Who has sensations?
<!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->PostId: 41435629
Number: 377
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 2:31:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 2:31:00 PM
Good question--and one I forgot to ask. I'm back on my old meditation schedule, and yoga as well. Every so often I have to stop doing yoga in order to remind myself of why I do it. It seems as if I don't really make any progress with it, but without it, things go downhill pretty fast. So now I know.
The same seems to be the case with meditation. If life seems grim with this practice, it's hopeless without it. My sits haven't been particularly inspiring, either. I even gave up last night before the timer went off. I'm either sleepy or distracted, yet there are times when the body falls into peaceful vibrations. So I will do what I can to maintain some kind of momentum. This morning I opened my eyes a couple of times in an attempt to promote better alertness. This worked until they got heavy and closed of their own accord, at which point I lost focus for awhile. This is how it is.
PostId: 41436027
Number: 378
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: giragirasol
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 3:23:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 3:23:00 PM
"This worked until they got heavy and closed of their own accord, at which point I lost focus for awhile. This is how it is. "
"This is how it is" is a wonderful thing to notice.
PostId: 41438439
Number: 379
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 12/5/2011 7:18:00 PM
EditDate: 12/5/2011 7:18:00 PM
""This is how it is""
... and a sense of wonder will get any of us through any sit! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->PostId: 41441836
Number: 380
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: dudeitseddy
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 12:07:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 12:07:00 AM
"
Have you tried noticing narratives? When I practice in that way, I discover lots of hidden desires that just cause trouble. Here's the technique I use:
1) I ask myself "What is happening?" to discern the plot. The answer to that question is the plot. Example: I hate my job.
2) I ask myself "Who are the characters in this story?". Then I answer: my boss, my job and myself. Notice that I consider the job a character, I do this in order to discern the dualities in the plot.
3) I look for the dualities: obnoxious boss-frustrated employee, Job/unpleasant situation-Victim of Job/unpleasant situation. I'm the employee and the victim.
4) I figure out the rules of my characters: a frustrated employee will feel, well, frustrated. It will feel helpless, angry, yearning for freedom, etc. A victim will feel disappointed, sad, angry, powerless, etc.
5) I figure out the desires of my characters: wanting to leave the job, wanting to give my boss a lesson, wanting to be happy, etc.
6) I note the desires and I realize that when I note my desires, I am not my desires. I disembed.
Let me know if this helps!"
Hey APriori, where did you find out about this technique? I'm curious to read about more things like this. I notice that sometimes I dismember through techniques I make up like these rather than just simple noting. I would really like to see more what others do.
12 years 9 months ago #93842
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41441953
Number: 381
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 12:24:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 12:24:00 AM
"Hey APriori, where did you find out about this technique? I'm curious to read about more things like this. I notice that sometimes I dismember through techniques I make up like these rather than just simple noting. I would really like to see more what others do."
Hey! I made it up myself. I used to go to psychoanalysis sessions a few years ago and, from there, I learned to discern plots and characters with the help of my psychoanalist. Then I figured I could use that in practice and made some adjustments to come up with the technique. I'm gonna try and look for psychoanalysis texts and send them to you.
<!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
PostId: 41442993
Number: 382
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 7:18:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 7:18:00 AM
"Hi Laurel, I think its really great that you're being so open about what's going on in your experience. Even though right now it doesn't feel like its a reduction of suffering, believe me: noticing unpleasantness in all its manifestations creates the conditions for liberation (noticing cultivates mindfulness and mindfulness cultivates space for liberation).
Have you tried noticing narratives? When I practice in that way, I discover lots of hidden desires that just cause trouble. Here's the technique I use:
1) I ask myself "What is happening?" to discern the plot. The answer to that question is the plot. Example: I hate my job.
2) I ask myself "Who are the characters in this story?". Then I answer: my boss, my job and myself. Notice that I consider the job a character, I do this in order to discern the dualities in the plot.
3) I look for the dualities: obnoxious boss-frustrated employee, Job/unpleasant situation-Victim of Job/unpleasant situation. I'm the employee and the victim.
4) I figure out the rules of my characters: a frustrated employee will feel, well, frustrated. It will feel helpless, angry, yearning for freedom, etc. A victim will feel disappointed, sad, angry, powerless, etc.
5) I figure out the desires of my characters: wanting to leave the job, wanting to give my boss a lesson, wanting to be happy, etc.
6) I note the desires and I realize that when I note my desires, I am not my desires. I disembed.
Let me know if this helps!"
A KFD yogi played this talk for our group in Atlanta, on the topic of disembedding from storylines:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/2011/07/12/how...movies-in-your-mind/ "> dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/2011/0 ... your-mind/
It's quite good...
PostId: 41443034
Number: 383
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 7:25:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 7:25:00 AM
The next time I have something happen like the run-in with the mother of my son's friend I am going to use this. I will probably have to go over it again and again and again. At the time, I can say I did note desires--to teach her a lesson, punish her, vindicate myself, etc.--but the last step, disembedding from them, proved difficult. Perhaps the problem is that I wallowed in the narrative too much in between noting, and allowed it to consume me. There was of course a perverse pleasure in it, which I'm sure was my imagination providing me with a sense of ultimate satisfaction, something reality could not give me. It was an effort at closure, when the actual encounter had left the bitterness of unfinished business.
The part that is hard for me is "I am not my desires." I continually leave off before arriving at this point. Even if I try to take that step, I don't really have a conviction about it. So there it is. It will take practice.
Speaking of practice, I am still sleepy all the time when I meditate, like a hibernating bear. I then feel restlessness and boredom, wanting to quit early. I note these feelings. I have the knot in the midsection, which comes and goes. This morning it was persistent. Then somehow I find myself vibrating for awhile. I had quite a lot of pain cropping up in various places this morning, and then I ended up with the gentle shaking, rocking back and forth from time to time. So things are happening, even if I sleep through part of it.
PostId: 41443829
Number: 384
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: orasis
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 11:09:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 11:09:00 AM
At the point of "I am not my desires" or on the flip side "I am not my aversion", you probably need to disembed from the "I" rather than the "desires/aversion". When you have seen and disembedded from everything else, but there is still desire/aversion to experience, that is the time to find the source of that desires/aversion, the "I" sense that anchors it to experience. If you can clearly see that "I" sense attached to the desire/aversion as phenomena, then you will have made a big leap.
"In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;"
PostId: 41443856
Number: 385
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 11:15:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 11:15:00 AM
"At the point of "I am not my desires" or on the flip side "I am not my aversion", you probably need to disembed from the "I" rather than the "desires/aversion". When you have seen and disembedded from everything else, but there is still desire/aversion to experience, that is the time to find the source of that desires/aversion, the "I" sense that anchors it to experience. If you can clearly see that "I" sense attached to the desire/aversion as phenomena, then you will have made a big leap.
"In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;"
"
SO true Justin. Thanks for pointing that out. It has become a habit to fragment "myself" from desires and, as we all know, the problem is dualistic fixation and not the desire.
Number: 381
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 12:24:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 12:24:00 AM
"Hey APriori, where did you find out about this technique? I'm curious to read about more things like this. I notice that sometimes I dismember through techniques I make up like these rather than just simple noting. I would really like to see more what others do."
Hey! I made it up myself. I used to go to psychoanalysis sessions a few years ago and, from there, I learned to discern plots and characters with the help of my psychoanalist. Then I figured I could use that in practice and made some adjustments to come up with the technique. I'm gonna try and look for psychoanalysis texts and send them to you.
<!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="
" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->PostId: 41442993
Number: 382
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 7:18:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 7:18:00 AM
"Hi Laurel, I think its really great that you're being so open about what's going on in your experience. Even though right now it doesn't feel like its a reduction of suffering, believe me: noticing unpleasantness in all its manifestations creates the conditions for liberation (noticing cultivates mindfulness and mindfulness cultivates space for liberation).
Have you tried noticing narratives? When I practice in that way, I discover lots of hidden desires that just cause trouble. Here's the technique I use:
1) I ask myself "What is happening?" to discern the plot. The answer to that question is the plot. Example: I hate my job.
2) I ask myself "Who are the characters in this story?". Then I answer: my boss, my job and myself. Notice that I consider the job a character, I do this in order to discern the dualities in the plot.
3) I look for the dualities: obnoxious boss-frustrated employee, Job/unpleasant situation-Victim of Job/unpleasant situation. I'm the employee and the victim.
4) I figure out the rules of my characters: a frustrated employee will feel, well, frustrated. It will feel helpless, angry, yearning for freedom, etc. A victim will feel disappointed, sad, angry, powerless, etc.
5) I figure out the desires of my characters: wanting to leave the job, wanting to give my boss a lesson, wanting to be happy, etc.
6) I note the desires and I realize that when I note my desires, I am not my desires. I disembed.
Let me know if this helps!"
A KFD yogi played this talk for our group in Atlanta, on the topic of disembedding from storylines:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/2011/07/12/how...movies-in-your-mind/ "> dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/2011/0 ... your-mind/
It's quite good...
PostId: 41443034
Number: 383
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 7:25:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 7:25:00 AM
The next time I have something happen like the run-in with the mother of my son's friend I am going to use this. I will probably have to go over it again and again and again. At the time, I can say I did note desires--to teach her a lesson, punish her, vindicate myself, etc.--but the last step, disembedding from them, proved difficult. Perhaps the problem is that I wallowed in the narrative too much in between noting, and allowed it to consume me. There was of course a perverse pleasure in it, which I'm sure was my imagination providing me with a sense of ultimate satisfaction, something reality could not give me. It was an effort at closure, when the actual encounter had left the bitterness of unfinished business.
The part that is hard for me is "I am not my desires." I continually leave off before arriving at this point. Even if I try to take that step, I don't really have a conviction about it. So there it is. It will take practice.
Speaking of practice, I am still sleepy all the time when I meditate, like a hibernating bear. I then feel restlessness and boredom, wanting to quit early. I note these feelings. I have the knot in the midsection, which comes and goes. This morning it was persistent. Then somehow I find myself vibrating for awhile. I had quite a lot of pain cropping up in various places this morning, and then I ended up with the gentle shaking, rocking back and forth from time to time. So things are happening, even if I sleep through part of it.
PostId: 41443829
Number: 384
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: orasis
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 11:09:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 11:09:00 AM
At the point of "I am not my desires" or on the flip side "I am not my aversion", you probably need to disembed from the "I" rather than the "desires/aversion". When you have seen and disembedded from everything else, but there is still desire/aversion to experience, that is the time to find the source of that desires/aversion, the "I" sense that anchors it to experience. If you can clearly see that "I" sense attached to the desire/aversion as phenomena, then you will have made a big leap.
"In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;"
PostId: 41443856
Number: 385
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: APrioriKreuz
CreationDate: 12/6/2011 11:15:00 AM
EditDate: 12/6/2011 11:15:00 AM
"At the point of "I am not my desires" or on the flip side "I am not my aversion", you probably need to disembed from the "I" rather than the "desires/aversion". When you have seen and disembedded from everything else, but there is still desire/aversion to experience, that is the time to find the source of that desires/aversion, the "I" sense that anchors it to experience. If you can clearly see that "I" sense attached to the desire/aversion as phenomena, then you will have made a big leap.
"In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;"
"
SO true Justin. Thanks for pointing that out. It has become a habit to fragment "myself" from desires and, as we all know, the problem is dualistic fixation and not the desire.
12 years 9 months ago #93843
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic Re: Laurel's Practice
PostId: 41451546
Number: 386
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 8:53:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 8:07:00 AM
This is a habit that I need to work on intentionally. It is far from established yet for me. I think my continued investment in the illusion of the separate self is a big contributor to the painfulness of the Dark Night stuff I've been experiencing. I had a lesson with Beth yesterday and she says a lot of the things I have been describing sound like DN. It seems finally to be easing up somewhat, though, but if I need a motivation to practice, it's right there!
I had a sit yesterday morning that was another sleepy one, not much of the relaxed vibrations but a lot of noting in and around the dreamlike state. I was alert a good part of the time, though. Then last night I had insomnia, so I got up and did about 45 minutes of noting practice. There were a lot of aches and pains in my right upper arm and left wrist, not surprising considering I played viola in a quartet all evening <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) --> . Eventually I started the rocking/shaking pattern, with strong and painful tension in the back of the neck. This came on for awhile, then stopped, then returned and stopped again numerous times. There were no fine vibrations in between that I could discern. There were some monster itches that dodged in and out of the painful spots and seemed to fuel the shaking. I did not have any trouble noting through most of this. Didn't get sleepy until towards the end, at which point I had long ago turned off the timer, so I went back to bed.
PostId: 41453182
Number: 387
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: Jackha
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 3:25:00 PM
EditDate: 12/7/2011 3:25:00 PM
You might be interested in Byron Katie's work and her 4 questions: The four questions:
1. Is it true?
2. Can you absolutely know it's true?
3. How do you react when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without the thought?
Turn it around.
You can go to <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href=" www.thework.com/ "> www.thework.com/ for more elaborate explanation.
jack
PostId: 41453723
Number: 388
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 4:45:00 PM
EditDate: 12/7/2011 4:45:00 PM
This might sound strange, but it can sometimes be tricky to figure out how to partition the time available for practice between noting-meditation and active-investigation type practices.
There's no magic formula, but I would say it pays to be very clear on what a given amount of practice time is supposed to accomplish. Otherwise noting never happens or investigation isn't deep. So lots of good ideas on this thread... but make practice desisions very consciously.
(p.s. Maybe I'm projecting, because I'll often drift into mental investigation (aka thinking) when I intend to be objectively noting.)
PostId: 41458671
Number: 389
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 12/8/2011 12:52:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 12:52:00 AM
don't forget this isn't supposed to be *serious* - the mind doesn't work very well with that kind of pressure <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
you might find it useful, when anxious off the cushion, whether you note it or not, to make yourself smile and see what happens.
PostId: 41460240
Number: 390
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/8/2011 10:40:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 10:40:00 AM
That may be getting easier; I seem to be nudging my way into low equanimity. This morning's 40 minute sit I fell into gentle vibrations almost immediately, and then watched one weird thread of thought after another arise and pass away, and I thought, sticky mind! I remember that! I've been smiling ever since, even through my 8:00 class with silent, sleepy students. I know that I'm on the border and likely to teeter back and forth, but it's good to be back.
Number: 386
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 8:53:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 8:07:00 AM
This is a habit that I need to work on intentionally. It is far from established yet for me. I think my continued investment in the illusion of the separate self is a big contributor to the painfulness of the Dark Night stuff I've been experiencing. I had a lesson with Beth yesterday and she says a lot of the things I have been describing sound like DN. It seems finally to be easing up somewhat, though, but if I need a motivation to practice, it's right there!
I had a sit yesterday morning that was another sleepy one, not much of the relaxed vibrations but a lot of noting in and around the dreamlike state. I was alert a good part of the time, though. Then last night I had insomnia, so I got up and did about 45 minutes of noting practice. There were a lot of aches and pains in my right upper arm and left wrist, not surprising considering I played viola in a quartet all evening <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) --> . Eventually I started the rocking/shaking pattern, with strong and painful tension in the back of the neck. This came on for awhile, then stopped, then returned and stopped again numerous times. There were no fine vibrations in between that I could discern. There were some monster itches that dodged in and out of the painful spots and seemed to fuel the shaking. I did not have any trouble noting through most of this. Didn't get sleepy until towards the end, at which point I had long ago turned off the timer, so I went back to bed.PostId: 41453182
Number: 387
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: Jackha
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 3:25:00 PM
EditDate: 12/7/2011 3:25:00 PM
You might be interested in Byron Katie's work and her 4 questions: The four questions:
1. Is it true?
2. Can you absolutely know it's true?
3. How do you react when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without the thought?
Turn it around.
You can go to <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href=" www.thework.com/ "> www.thework.com/ for more elaborate explanation.
jack
PostId: 41453723
Number: 388
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: betawave
CreationDate: 12/7/2011 4:45:00 PM
EditDate: 12/7/2011 4:45:00 PM
This might sound strange, but it can sometimes be tricky to figure out how to partition the time available for practice between noting-meditation and active-investigation type practices.
There's no magic formula, but I would say it pays to be very clear on what a given amount of practice time is supposed to accomplish. Otherwise noting never happens or investigation isn't deep. So lots of good ideas on this thread... but make practice desisions very consciously.
(p.s. Maybe I'm projecting, because I'll often drift into mental investigation (aka thinking) when I intend to be objectively noting.)
PostId: 41458671
Number: 389
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 12/8/2011 12:52:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 12:52:00 AM
don't forget this isn't supposed to be *serious* - the mind doesn't work very well with that kind of pressure <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->you might find it useful, when anxious off the cushion, whether you note it or not, to make yourself smile and see what happens.
PostId: 41460240
Number: 390
Subject: RE: Hard Times
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 12/8/2011 10:40:00 AM
EditDate: 12/8/2011 10:40:00 AM
That may be getting easier; I seem to be nudging my way into low equanimity. This morning's 40 minute sit I fell into gentle vibrations almost immediately, and then watched one weird thread of thought after another arise and pass away, and I thought, sticky mind! I remember that! I've been smiling ever since, even through my 8:00 class with silent, sleepy students. I know that I'm on the border and likely to teeter back and forth, but it's good to be back.