Laurel's Practice

I am going to start reposting my original practice threads, beginning with the very first. I'll place several posts from the original on a single post here to keep from going crazy. Here goes:

ThreadId: 4588871
Title: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 5/10/2011 5:47:00 PM
Category: Discussion Forum / Practice Notes
NumReplies: 450

Posts:

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PostId: 38435739
Number: 0
Subject: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 5/10/2011 5:47:00 PM
EditDate: 5/10/2011 5:47:00 PM

I'm really new to this practice. Last December I stumbled on Buddhist Geeks through Twitter, read Daniel's MCTB, spent some time on DhO and was casting about fror an approach to practice. I tried a number of techniques, and finally decided to settle on anapanasati practice, after reading Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen's Practicing the Jhanas.

So: I worked on this concentration practice on a daily basis, without anything interesting happening until I got to a daylong retreat a couple of weeks ago at a meditation center nearby, and found myself experiencing a sudden clarity and ease with watching the breath that I hadn't had before. Then this past weekend I went on a 3-day residential retreat, and had further experience with a state that was more relaxed than what I'd had earlier. I would be watching the breath, fighting off restlessness and torpor, and then find myself relaxing into a state where I felt as if I was experiencing the world through a wide-angle lens. I was sitting in a meditation hall with the windows open on all sides, hearing birds and other wildlife, and it was like surround-sound. There was a very light grey, almost white light that seemed to envelope my head. My breath became almost imperceptible, and I felt deeply relaxed. At the same time, I also felt restlessness nudging at me, as if I didn't quite know what to do with myself. It's as if working at watching the breath is somehow easier for me than this state of just letting go.

What's been hard is getting back home. I find my emotional volatility is higher than it was--with one emotion in particular, and that is a tendency to be very easily embarrassed. It's like a fear of being so exposed, I guess. I don't know if it's normal to feel that way but that's what it's like for me. I tend to be an anxious person to begin with. Anyway, I'd appreciate whatever feedback anyone can give.

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PostId: 38436591
Number: 1
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 5/10/2011 6:30:00 PM
EditDate: 5/10/2011 6:30:00 PM

Welcome Laurel!
Sounds like you're off to a great start.
I've also noticed that at times my volatility seem somewhat 'heightened', much to the dismay of those around me. It's always been short term, and over the long term(relative, I'm pretty new too) I'm much better off for meditating. I'll leave advice to those with much more experience.

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PostId: 38725652
Number: 2
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 5/29/2011 11:22:00 AM
EditDate: 5/29/2011 11:22:00 AM

Thanks for the encouragement. I've continued to feel anxious, but I think it has to do with changes in the season. I'm an academic, and I always feel this way when classes are over for the year and my structure is taken away. At DhO there's an interesting discussion on Clinical Mindfulness, including the dangers of meditation, especially practicing the concentration techniques that are focused on the nostrils. If you spend too much time in your head, you need a physical practice for the sake of grounding yourself. I've developed a new appreciation for walking meditation as a result.

The concentration practice continues to unfold. I was thrown off my routine for awhile, and couldn't achieve any kind of concentration at home, but at a daylong yesterday found myself sinking back into the deeper level of relaxation I had three weeks ago. Sure wish I could manage it at home. I feel the pressure of my family waking up upstairs, the question of getting the day started. Carving out psychic space as well as 40 minutes is essential.

PostId: 38726464
Number: 3
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: andymr
CreationDate: 5/29/2011 12:26:00 PM
EditDate: 5/29/2011 12:26:00 PM


Welcome! Good to have you here, Laurel. I remember your initial post on DHO.

Sounds like you started pretty much the same way I did (Buddhist Geeks, MCTB, DHO), except for that retreat part, and then that having the initial success part. Things have picked up for me since.

I agree that everyday life is the toughest part of any practice. There are so many demands on our attention that it can be hard to even catch your breath sometimes.

Consider starting an ongoing journal here. I resisted for a long time (embarrassment, among other things). I've found that it helps.

Andy

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PostId: 38742047
Number: 4
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Antero.
CreationDate: 5/30/2011 1:50:00 AM
EditDate: 5/30/2011 1:50:00 AM

"What's been hard is getting back home. I find my emotional volatility is higher than it was--with one emotion in particular, and that is a tendency to be very easily embarrassed. It's like a fear of being so exposed, I guess. I don't know if it's normal to feel that way but that's what it's like for me.
- Laurel"

Welcome Laurel!

I can relate to your story, because being self-concious has always been a problem for me. Whenever I am hitting the Dark Night phase I get a lump in my throat and an acute feeling of insecurity. During these periods it is very hard for me to speak in public as I am constantly monitoring my self, feeling uncertain and thinking what other think of me. Actually the way I am handling situations like these has become a yard stick of progress for me.

Looking forward to your practise notes,
Antero.

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PostId: 38744133
Number: 5
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 5/30/2011 9:38:00 AM
EditDate: 5/30/2011 9:38:00 AM

How do you tell the difference between Dark Night phenomena and garden-variety anxiety and depression? I had what I think may have been an A & P experience when I was 19, have had depression and anxiety ever since, but then again I had them before that as well, so it's hard to distinguish. But what happened after the retreat was on a whole greater scale of magnitude--I was telling the group that I had seen a flock of loons on the lake, and it turns out they weren't loons but pelicans LOL (never heard of pelicans inland, but so what), and my embarrassment and shame were extreme; I wanted to bury myself somewhere. As if anyone even would remember!!! Usually I can handle making simple mistakes and talking in public (I'm a teacher). Anyway--I don't think this was DN but rather a feeling of exposure. I'd been doing samatha practice, not noting. Bujt a part of me was thinking WTF, I started this practice to overcome all this suffering, and here I am feeling even worse. However, I am beginning to understand that greater concentration/insight means getting closer to the suffering.

@Andy: I also fear exposing myself on this forum; among other things I can't imagine anyone would possibly be interested in my day to day practice. But I see other people doing it, and I realize that this is what this place is for, so I will brace myself and get to work on it.

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PostId: 38763578
Number: 6
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: TommyMcNally
CreationDate: 5/31/2011 6:13:00 AM
EditDate: 5/31/2011 6:13:00 AM

Great notes, Laurel, and your honesty with yourself, and the rest of us, is commendable.

I don't know how we can really differentiate between depression and DN, I tried to figure this out myself but it's just too risky an area to make any final judgement on without considerable research, although the work that's being done at Brown University and by people like Ron Crouch will hopefully prove more fruitful. My experience of comparing the two suggests that depression manifests in a more mental way, wheras Dark Night has quite a bit of physical stuff going on, although earlier insight stages such as 3rd ñana (Three Characteristics) also have quite a lot of physical discomfort too so it's difficult to make a clear distinction.

Your jhana experience, based on what you've said, sounds like you've gotten to at least 2nd jhana when that sense of effort dropped away, and possibly into 3rd. Either way you've clearly got the ability to make this happen!

One of the most encouraging things about this site is that the majority of us are householders with similar problems to yourself so, hopefully, you'll be able to get some more practical advice and get to where you want to be. It'll be good to see how things work out for you and how your practice develops, so just be sure to ask loads of questions and don't ever be afraid to be upfront and open about this stuff 'cause we're all in this together. : )

PostId: 38772325
Number: 7
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 5/31/2011 6:33:00 PM
EditDate: 5/31/2011 6:33:00 PM

Thanks, Tommy, for your wonderful and affirming note. This matter of physical symptoms is confusing to me because I have fibromyalgia, which is a weird and indefinable chronic pain condition that seems to have several sources, some of them in the mind. Sometimes I'm fine and sometimes I have flareups. Right now is flareup time, but one of the things that seems to be a precursor (or co-morbid factor) is a persistent problem sleeping. I have always been an insomniac.

But I digress. Or maybe not; this practice makes sense to me because I feel, basically, I can better handle my various sources of dissatisfaction with myself and/or the world by getting some distance on them. In any case, did a brief sit yesterday, and found it relaxing, but not particularly productive. I am coming to realize that the times when one seems not to be making real progress are not wasted; that's why we call it practice. I am also starting to get past the mental block of believing that conditions have to be perfect in order to practice. Tommy speaks in his notes of standing in rain, or grabbing a few minutes here and there at work. I also think I will start mixing in noting practice with concentration techniques. More later, and thank you everyone for this place of safety and support.

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PostId: 38776877
Number: 8
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: andymr
CreationDate: 5/31/2011 9:05:00 PM
EditDate: 5/31/2011 9:05:00 PM

"I am coming to realize that the times when one seems not to be making real progress are not wasted; that's why we call it practice. I am also starting to get past the mental block of believing that conditions have to be perfect in order to practice. "

Nice!

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PostId: 38783693
Number: 9
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/1/2011 7:49:00 AM
EditDate: 6/1/2011 7:49:00 AM

30 minutes of concentration practice last night, focusing on the breath at the point of entry in the nostrils. Had my usual mental chatter at first, reviewing the day, thinking, thinking, thinking. Then eventually flickers of dreamlike images began to emerge, followed by a sense of settling into the focus on the breath. Lots of clarity there, and then a feeling of sinking deeper, with a calm blissful feeling and the widening of awareness, emergence of a subtle perception of light. Lately I've enjoyed a few light shows, disks of changing colors that flash before my eyes like jellyfish opening and closing, but last night was more subdued.

Went to sleep after the sit and slept reasonably well (for me!), but woke up with a severe headache. Did 45 minutes of yoga and bodywork this morning, and the headache subsided.

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PostId: 38786363
Number: 10
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/1/2011 2:26:00 PM
EditDate: 6/1/2011 2:26:00 PM

Hi Laurel,

Speaking as someone who did several years of breath-following meditation before stumbling onto this site, I really recommend taking up some out-loud noting. You don't even have to be good at it. It sounds like you have very highly-developed concentration skills, and need only redress the balance on the "insight" side to make fast progress.

From the sound of it, aspects of your "insight" skills are already in place. You may have been through the "A&P". If that's so, then some of your life is lived in the Dark Night, whether you ever get to know it or not.

Noting practice does bring it on fast, though. If you're no stranger to chronic pain and anxiety, I don't think the specific DN feelings will seem like anything new to you, although there may be flashes of an intensity that will be unsettling. I found this true of surges of "Fear" and the twisty, hard-to-concentrate brain-noise of "Re-observation", but I'm sure everyone has their own Greatest Hits.

At times like that, the thing to keep in mind is that the spells don't last long. It's also best to not look too hard for causes. DN stuff arises for reasons that are too complex and deep-rooted for us to trace, and it's best to just think of it like a spell of weather.

Also, dare to think of yourself as looking for stream-entry, for awakening! I think it helps to be totally shameless about doing this because you want to make things better. That intention alone WILL carry you forward.

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PostId: 38787941
Number: 11
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/1/2011 5:00:00 PM
EditDate: 6/1/2011 5:00:00 PM

Wow--Thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm kind of speechless (a good thing, on the whole, for me!). I will begin the noting, but also keep up some jhana practice at the same time--for awhile, anyway. But I think if there's even a chance that I'm rattling around in DN I should do everything I can to push through it. Fear, misery, and disgust--all terribly familiar! Interestingly enough, I can think and talk about these things without self-pity now, just record them as facts. That's one benefit of the reading and practice I've done. The other thing I can say is that I've been through a lot of talk-therapy, so I don't feel the slightest temptation to return to my content and go around in more circles with it. That could change, I suppose, but frankly my "stuff" started to bore me a long time ago.

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PostId: 38798403
Number: 12
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/2/2011 7:19:00 AM
EditDate: 6/2/2011 7:19:00 AM

Followed Rob Mtl's advice and began noting practice this morning. Just as an aside: my A&P arose quite by accident with no meditation on my part, as a result of wiping out on the Massachusetts Turnpike many years ago. But I think now I'm going to do noting in the morning sit, concentration in the evening.

This morning: 25 minutes or so of generalized noting of everything: sounds, thoughts, sensations in the body. Most dominant was fear, located in the solar plexus. The knot was there every time I returned to it. Also pain in hip, neck, foot. The practice itself was relaxing to me. A sense of my body being a set of electric impulses running up and down. Refrigerator running in the background, feelings of annoyance and then let that go. Birds, clock ticking. Some drifting thoughts bordering on dreamlike images, returned to awareness. No rumination, however. That's about as precise as I can get. Didn't verbalize much, only occasionally. I'm not sure whether I'll continue this particular approach or take a more focused approach. Still trying to decide.

PostId: 38870505
Number: 13
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/6/2011 11:33:00 AM
EditDate: 6/6/2011 11:33:00 AM

Began noting practice, with about half an hour riding (not driving) in a car at around midnight on the Southeast Expressway between Boston and Cape Cod. I found it surprisingly easy to note sensations, thoughts, and emotions as they rose and passed away. Lots and lots of itching, on the face, wrist, ankle, and wherever--but felt no compulsion to do anything about it. Mild feelings of nausea that I had no idea were there, rising up almost into my throat. Thoughts that I did not feel a compulsion to explore, or even to suppress--it's amazing how liberating it is just to note them, and find them going nowhere.

I have some perplexity about my samatha jhana practice, not sure where I am on the map. Read a thread over on DhO on that very topic, and realize that as I gain experience and stability I will feel this almost instinctively. I also think I have been mixing a bit of noting into the jhana practice b/c I've silently called out names of hindrances as they've arisen--torpor, restlessness, etc.

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PostId: 38870548
Number: 14
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/6/2011 11:37:00 AM
EditDate: 6/6/2011 11:37:00 AM

From your description - it sounds like you are getting to the 3 characteristics phase of the progress of insight. Good work. I found it very helpful at that point to contemplate one of the itches you mention and really try and see how rather than a solid point, it has a certain graininess to it. The more I would tune into this the more of a vibratory quality within the itch was seen. Also, points of tension / aching were observed and seen to be moving, amorphous fields rather than solid patches. In doing this I began to penetrate the apparently solid objects which is what getting to the A&P is all about.

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PostId: 38870916
Number: 15
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/6/2011 12:13:00 PM
EditDate: 6/6/2011 12:13:00 PM

"I have some perplexity about my samatha jhana practice, not sure where I am on the map. Read a thread over on DhO on that very topic, and realize that as I gain experience and stability I will feel this almost instinctively. I also think I have been mixing a bit of noting into the jhana practice b/c I've silently called out names of hindrances as they've arisen--torpor, restlessness, etc. "

I think you're right on about this- I find a lot of the written descriptions of jhanas (and nanas, too) only make sense in retrospect- by the time you start to recognize the outlines of them within yourself, you've probably already been through them several times!

I've had good experiences with noting hindrances as a concentration practice. I especially found it helpful with &quot;torpor&quot;, because I used to really beat myself up over getting sleepy while sitting. Eventually I realized that a &quot;hindrance&quot; wasn't something to &quot;beat&quot; or to be &quot;overcome&quot;, just to be recognized- persistently recognizning it *was* the antidote for the hindrance. even if it took many tries and much noting for the antidote to kick in <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

I don't know about anyone else's experience, but I have never managed to keep either &quot;samatha&quot; or &quot;vipassana&quot; practice pure and isolated, one from the other. Noting builds concentration, and counting breaths brings on insights. Who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ?

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PostId: 38888997
Number: 16
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/7/2011 9:07:00 AM
EditDate: 6/7/2011 9:07:00 AM

Thanks, mumuwu. I tried that in this morning's sit, with pain in the hip. It would move and abate a bit, but then it would be back. I noticed that I still had a sense of it as being solid when it would return. The itches would fade a bit, but I wasn't yet able to pick up on graininess, let alone vibrating. So that is my next step. What I'd like to figure out is how to negotiate all these things. I probably was focusing on too many things at once, including thoughts and sounds, and am not ready for that, because even if I focus on physical sensations there's so much going on!

Rob, your description of your experience with torpor is spot on. I was ashamed and peeved with myself when I thought I was falling asleep, until I realized that this is a specific hindrance with a specific effect. I am also letting go of the need to keep everything tidy with the maps--as you said, it'll have to make sense in retrospect.

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PostId: 38908359
Number: 17
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/8/2011 8:55:00 AM
EditDate: 6/8/2011 8:55:00 AM

For the past couple of days I've been on vacation at Cape Cod with my husband, 10-year-old son, and 91-year-old mother. Today my autistic older brother will arrive. As you can imagine, it's chaos. I've managed to practice some, however, and being by the ocean is always good for giving a person a feeling of how vast the universe is in comparison to one's own ego-drama. One piece of my drama is that I forgot my meds, of all things--gabopentin (Neurontin), without which I can't get to sleep. So the first night I was up until 5:00 with anxiety symptoms churning in my stomach, and feeling a queasy brand of the shakes. I absolutely could not get enough resolution together to note any of this; I just lay there feeling angry with myself for forgetting the one thing I can't easily do without. But the next day (Monday) we got in touch with pharmacists from home and here, and got the pills. My aim when I get back home is to taper this medication and get off of it, but not now, and not cold turkey!

I've been able to do some noting meditation. Yesterday went to the dock on the bay (sounds like a song . . .) and sat for 30 mins. I forgot to put on sunscreen, could feel the sun practically cooking my legs, but just noted it. I figured I'm not going to die from 30 minutes out in the sun at 11:00 daylight savings time. I tried noting sounds and thoughts, mostly. I always think of this particular place as peaceful, but was amazed to see (or hear) how noisy it all is. There is always construction going on around here, and yard maintenance; it's a very wealthy neighborhood and all the residents are relentlessly pursuing The Good Life on steroids. But then there are the birds, the rustling of the small crabs, and myriad other noises. Thoughts didn't pester me too much, but when they did I noted them.

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PostId: 38908414
Number: 18
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/8/2011 9:03:00 AM
EditDate: 6/8/2011 9:03:00 AM

(cont.)

I later downloaded copies of Mahasi Sayadaw's works on Vipassana (found free books at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" www.yellowrobe.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/...-mahasi-sayadaw.html "> www.yellowrobe.com/books/mahasi- ... yadaw.html) and realized I haven't been as precise in noting as I need to be. In the meantime, tried some concentration practice last night and got nowhere. Felt annoyed with myself, kept falling asleep, and gave up five minutes before the timer went off, which I hate to do as it sets a precedent that could become a real habit. I'm thinking of having a consult with Kenneth after we get home. I need to make some decisions about what practice to focus on at the moment. I have a 9-day retreat at IMS coming up in July, and I'm wondering whether I should keep working on my concentration skills in preparation, then switch to noting practice just before the retreat.

That's the morning report. Now it's off to the beach and then the mall with my son, whose interests run to legos, Star Wars, and Pirates of the Caribbean.

PostId: 38909761
Number: 19
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/8/2011 11:57:00 AM
EditDate: 6/8/2011 11:57:00 AM

A little rant about precision in noting:

Everything I've read on noting technique has contributed to making me neurotic about either vocabulary, precision, or speed, and I've never become skilled and precise to my own obsessive-compulsive satisfaction.

I flip-flop techniques regularly- Kenneth-style, Shinzen Young-style, Mahasi-style, noting the 5 hindrances, noting the 6 sense-doors, or just coming up with whatever word seems right. It seems to work anyways <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . The noting keeps your attention on the stream of perceived phenomena, and that's the beginning and end of its usefulness. Whether you ever get fast or accurate or not doesn't really matter.

Eventually, you'll even start to find that noting is sometimes too coarse, because your sensitivity to the stream of phenomena gets too fast. Nobody can tell you when you get to that point- you have only your gut sense to go on. Once you're there, though, it's good not to let an obsession with finding names block your way.

Then, when your gut sense tells you that you're drifting, you can go back to the noting.

I do think, though, that Kenneth is right to emphasize noting from all 4 &quot;foundations of mindfulness&quot;- that's always a good way to pinpoint where you're stuck. I'm really weak on finding notes for the 3rd foundation (mental states / moods / emotions).

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PostId: 38926469
Number: 20
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/9/2011 9:53:00 AM
EditDate: 6/9/2011 9:53:00 AM

Thanks, Rob! It's very easy for me to get hung up on trying to do everything &quot;correctly.&quot; Sometimes I also think I read way too much, should spend more of that time practicing. I'm just as hung up with practicing the jhanas as with the noting. Time should take care of a lot of this stuff for me. Thanks again.

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PostId: 38953882
Number: 21
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/10/2011 6:51:00 PM
EditDate: 6/10/2011 6:51:00 PM

&amp;lt;fretting&amp;gt;I should rename this thread &quot;Laurel's No Practice.&quot; Ever since my brother arrived the house has been a three-ring circus, with no privacy, no time to myself, and a lot of challenges to my patience. I steal away to read everyone else's practice threads and feel practice-envy. Can't wait to get back home, which will happen by around midnight tomorrow. In the meantime, I tell myself I'm doing sila training. &amp;lt;/fretting&amp;gt;.

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PostId: 38954646
Number: 22
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/10/2011 7:27:00 PM
EditDate: 6/10/2011 7:27:00 PM

Try not to fret, but if you do, notice it. I find it very difficult to practice when I'm interacting with people. It works when my concentration is good, otherwise not really. But since this is supposed to help us in daily life try to do what you can in daily life too. Notice fretting, frustration, impatience, forgetting to notice, whatever it is. If you do this 30 seconds out of an hour it's better then nothing! And some days you will have the time to practice more. Beating myself up just made me resent the practice, that's why I've quit in the past, so I'm really trying to lighten up about it. Easier said then done, I know. But try to look at as pushing a snow ball, it adds up, some times slowly sometimes quickly, but it all helps.

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PostId: 38962521
Number: 23
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: stephencoe100
CreationDate: 6/11/2011 4:15:00 AM
EditDate: 6/11/2011 4:15:00 AM

Don't under estimate that frustration, because that shows how keen you are to practice, and thats half the battle.
I know i might be stating the obvious here, but sometimes thats just what we need. Remember 99.9% of folks never even get on the ride!

PostId: 38963149
Number: 24
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/11/2011 8:06:00 AM
EditDate: 6/11/2011 8:06:00 AM

Thanks, Rev and Stephen! I got in 45 minutes this morning before the family was awake--got in some yoga first. The yoga is best when I first wake up because it centers me, makes it easier to practice. Did silent noting, sounds in neighborhood, someone's garden equipment, kind of rotating whining sound, birds, wind; also noted fear and anxiety just below the solar plexus, watched it move up in my chest, then torpor set in, some dream images which I noted, some of them seeming to be lucid dreams. I've been reading Steinbeck and I noted Steinbeck characters and/or verbiage emerging in my dreams; then a nice, accommodating itch woke me up, as I focused on it others came up. Settled into relaxation, felt good. Session ended when son woke up.

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PostId: 38979881
Number: 25
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/12/2011 8:45:00 AM
EditDate: 6/12/2011 8:45:00 AM

Yesterday I learned all about doing noting practice in airports and on airplanes! Got to Logan in Boston and had pain all over the neck, shoulder area. Did about 20 minutes of noting. Body warmed up, felt heat rising through the midsection, felt my jacket binding me too tightly, felt heartrate increasing, but the pain went away. Ended up feeling refreshed. Everyone thought I was taking a little nap, except my husband, who's in the know.

Did some walking meditation at the Milwaukee Airport. It's a great way to pass the time, especially if people are watching your bags for you. On the airplane, did more noting. My right hip and leg went into a series of leg jerks, like restless leg syndrome. Pressure would build up and go into a kind of spasm. I was sitting in that confined space, but didn't have the problem before or after the practice. It was odd and very uncomfortable. I have no idea what it was related to--I know I have been walking more than usual and have some problems lately with leg pain, but this felt different. Now we're back, I'm hoping to get into a regular routine.

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PostId: 38997887
Number: 26
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/13/2011 8:33:00 AM
EditDate: 6/13/2011 8:33:00 AM

I've been working on concentration practice, trying to recover the concentration I had before the vacation. It's pretty disheartening: yesterday I managed two 25-minute sessions, both of which were characterized by dreaminess and, in the later one, actually falling asleep. This morning I did some yoga and then settled in for a nice 40-minute session. I got lots of lights rising and opening up, then fading, then doing it again, but I also got lots of dream imagery, and as soon as I returned to the breath from one such dream another would start up.

My retreat instructor said that the mind can be like a toddler when subjected to discipline: it throws food, screams for attention, and generally acts up. I know Kenneth has said that once you have gotten to a samatha jhana,, you can always return to it. I think in my case I'm just going to need a gentle reminder; or else I may not have gotten past access concentration in the first place. In any case, whatever it was wasn't stable. But getting back is going to be my goal for the next few days.

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PostId: 38998680
Number: 27
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/13/2011 10:53:00 AM
EditDate: 6/13/2011 10:53:00 AM

At the risk of sounding like a repetitive, annoying infomercial for noting practice: even if you're focusing on a concentration practice, you can use noting as a backstop, a way to fill in the gaps in concentration practice. When the &quot;samadhi&quot; just isn't showing up, you can fill in those moments that might otherwise be consumed by a disheartening feeling that you've had a setback.

There is always the strong urge to measure your progress by your ability to &quot;lock in&quot; a pleasant mental state you experienced before. But from another point of view, you are only ever moving forward, never back. Phenomena like sleepiness and sludginess recur all along the path, but always for new reasons.

Even that awful sleepiness and dreaminess can become a friend if you watch it. Once when I was feeling really sludgy, I just noted the intensity of how sleepy I felt. &quot;Really sleepy... just a little sleepy... really really sleepy...&quot;. After a certain point, that noting took on momentum, and the concentration and one-poited energy returned. Obviously, I can't say if that technique will work for you, but just to make the point that apparent &quot;problems&quot; and &quot;setbacks&quot; are actually progress in disguise.

Even if the knitting is going badly today, there's still more sweater than there was before!

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PostId: 38998875
Number: 28
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/13/2011 11:10:00 AM
EditDate: 6/13/2011 11:10:00 AM

Thanks, Rob! One thing I can say: from the noting practice I've done so far, I find that much easier than concentration practice, because it gives me more to do, and my brain is happy to jump through those hoops. As for the concentration, I have this fear of backsliding. I guess this isn't like yoga or other physical discipline, where I've had the disheartening experience of losing flexibility over time (especially when I leave off practice for awhile) because of the aging process.

And thanks for being a repetitive infomercial (not at all annoying). I need the reminder.

PostId: 39000671
Number: 29
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/13/2011 1:39:00 PM
EditDate: 6/13/2011 1:39:00 PM

Yes, exactly! It's not the same as a physical discipline. Or rather, the discipline is more like the &quot;riding a bike&quot; clich&amp;eacute;. You stumble and recover over and over, then one day, a new level of skill just kinda shows up full-blown (usually at or near a path, at least in my experience). Once it's there, you seem to have a choice to use it or not, but it doesn't really go away. (I'm saying this from only a few months' post-path experience myself, but these things feel quite solid, even in those times it becomes painfully clear that I have a lot more to learn).

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PostId: 39016545
Number: 30
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/14/2011 8:31:00 AM
EditDate: 6/14/2011 8:31:00 AM

Okay, so I started out with focusing on the breath, particularly at the tip of the nose, in and out. I got to a point where I felt sufficiently focused to begin noting, and worked with sounds (my birds squawking upstairs, wild birds doing the same thing outside), thoughts (not too many of these), and itches and body sensations. Was able to note graininess in itches here and there, little throbs of pain arising and passing in my hand, tension here and there.

After awhile I returned to the anapana spot at the tip of the nose, and then the dream stuff started. This time I paid attention and noted it. All sorts of people approached me, offering me things: advice, pieces of paper, things I should do. Some of them were anonymous, some of them people I know. My mother showed up, then my son, and a neighbor at whose house he often plays; then Sarah Palin (doh!), whom I have to admit I sent packing (I am not allowing you in my meditation!). I kept returning to the tip of the nose after noting these guys. Lots of anticipation, but not powerful, just flickers of thinking ahead. Some restlessness, wanting to check the timer. Managed to resist this. When I returned to the focus on the breath I noted lights, circles of light, sometimes brighter, sometimes dimmer, sometimes larger and sometimes pinpricks. There'd be a wash of light across my face frequently, followed by waves of darkness. Then eventually the timer went off.

Rob, I thought about what you said in post 27 about new reasons for sleepiness and sludginess. I think I see what you mean. I get the impression that all this stuff is working its way through my practice and will eventually resolve into something new.

I have a session with Kenneth set up for a few hours from now. I'll report back about that.

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PostId: 39016625
Number: 31
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 6/14/2011 8:59:00 AM
EditDate: 6/14/2011 8:59:00 AM

Great reports, Laurel. When you can disembed from Sarah Palin thoughts, you are totally rocking the noting!
<!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) -->

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PostId: 39017430
Number: 32
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/14/2011 11:01:00 AM
EditDate: 6/14/2011 11:01:00 AM

Sounds like progress to me. Keep at it and you can't go wrong.

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PostId: 39025032
Number: 33
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/14/2011 6:38:00 PM
EditDate: 6/14/2011 6:38:00 PM

Thanks, guys! I had my session with Kenneth today, and he confirmed what I've been suspecting: I went through the A &amp; P when I had that car accident when I was 19. We're talking--okay, time to reveal the truth--38 years ago. So there's been some Dark Night stuff mixing in with my other psychological business, and some of you might recall from earlier posts that I'm really interested in trying to figure out what the difference is between depression and DN. I read the thread Ron Crouch posted about this a couple of months ago, and someone mentioned that with depression, there are therapies/meds etc. that work. None of that has worked for me. OTOH, I had anxiety and depression symptoms before the A &amp; P, but I remember everything really unraveling afterwards.

I suppose it doesn't really matter what's what, although my tendency to try to figure things out conceptually gets tied up in knots. What matters is I need to get on with noting practice to resolve this stuff. To be continued . . .

PostId: 39025261
Number: 34
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/14/2011 6:49:00 PM
EditDate: 6/14/2011 6:49:00 PM

(cont.)

Okay: so here's what's happening with noting practice: I did some this afternoon and I got leg spasms on the right side, something that happened to me when I was noting the other day during a flight back home. There was no cramped seating arrangement to blame for it, but it was mighty uncomfortable. I was mainly noting anxiety (that knot in the midsection), which gave way to itching, which gave way to a monster itch. Then torpor set in and I lost track of things. Then I got alert again, resumed noting, then the leg spasms. Whassup with that? I don't know, but I did not like it. So something is going on.

I feel somewhat confused: I went through A &amp; P longer ago than a lot of you have been alive <!-- s:-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:-) --> without ever having meditated, and then with noting practice now find myself back at square one, don't quite know where I am on the map, what to expect or when. But like I said, I get caught up in wanting to know what's what, and these things can't be resolved conceptually. Last December I went through a bona fide sequence of fear, misery, disgust, and desire for deliverance, just as described in Daniel's book, which is why I started working on this approach. There's only one direction for me to go. I'm working on getting to Stream Entry, and I am really motivated now.

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PostId: 39036507
Number: 35
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 6/15/2011 10:05:00 AM
EditDate: 6/15/2011 10:05:00 AM

&quot;When you can disembed from Sarah Palin thoughts,&quot;

-wow. I think thats technically considered a 'power'

Welcome fellow dark night yogi! You are in the right place.

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PostId: 39039396
Number: 36
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/15/2011 1:55:00 PM
EditDate: 6/15/2011 1:55:00 PM

Thanks for the encouragement! Speaking of dark night, I feel like a train wreck. I've been noting a lot during the day, yesterday and today; noted in bed last night and getting up this morning. Had a nightmare before waking, that I had gone into a tunnel, then suddenly felt panic and constriction, thought of backing out the way I came, but didn't want to do that because it would mean going nowhere. But I was afraid if I went forward I'd get stuck in there and die there.

Right now I hurt all over, I'm sleepy, my head hurts, my neck hurts, and even though I've been to the chiropractor, I feel a mess. I'm yelling at my kid and wishing I were overworked again so I could ignore how I feel. I'm about to go take a nap.

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PostId: 39059278
Number: 37
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/16/2011 2:16:00 PM
EditDate: 6/16/2011 2:16:00 PM

I took the nap, felt better. Did some samatha practice last evening, got into 1st jhana, but didn't stay there, somehow got sidetracked and was busy doing I don't remember what. Just got through with half an hour of noting practice. Could not stay awake! I was fine for about 10 minutes or so, then jerked myself out of a dream over and over, then had some real itching issues, which I decided to note in detail. I was able to detect the graininess in one itch in particular and worked with it for awhile.

For noting I'm doing silent noting of mental and physical phenomena, but I seem to do better when I focus on one thing in detail and don't even try to name it over and over again. I did not have the painful physical symptoms during this session that I've had in recent sessions. I'll see how this develops.

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PostId: 39060397
Number: 38
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/16/2011 3:17:00 PM
EditDate: 6/16/2011 3:18:00 PM

&quot;I took the nap, felt better&quot;
This never seems to come up on the forum, but I've found that sometimes the best thing I do for my practice...is have a good nap. (I just woke up 20 minutes ago.)I feel better and practice better. It sounds like you're getting the hang of it, keep at it and see where it takes you.

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PostId: 39062664
Number: 39
Subject: RE: Laurel's practice
Author: TommyMcNally
CreationDate: 6/16/2011 5:03:00 PM
EditDate: 6/16/2011 5:03:00 PM

&quot;I was able to detect the graininess in one itch in particular and worked with it for awhile.&quot;

Nice one! If you're observing stuff at this level then you're doing it right so you can drop any concerns about your ability to note properly.

Sorry to hear things are a bit rough right now, but by the sounds of things you'll power through this phase pretty quickly as your practice looks really good right now. If you're noticing the physical stuff subsiding then you're making progress, stick with it and keep that momentum going!

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PostId: 39116535
Number: 40
Subject: Anhedonia
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/19/2011 5:54:00 PM
EditDate: 6/19/2011 5:54:00 PM

I feel like absolute bloody hell lately, exhausted, ready to fall asleep at a moment's notice. I feel like a menace in a car, worrying I'm going to zone out. Mornings are okay, but anything after lunch, forget it. Plus I can't go to my happy place b/c there is no such place right now. I have meditated each day, and get started with something and then get sleepy. I have been taking naps. I am wondering if this is it for the rest of my life, lingering in a twilight state.

I think several things are going on, one of which is a period of about six months (longer, actually) of relentless activity, professional and family related, some of it extremely stressful. There has been no down time, no break. I don't think we're designed to function that way. Anyway, that's what's going on right now. This is how it is.

PostId: 39118631
Number: 41
Subject: RE: Anhedonia
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 6/19/2011 7:38:00 PM
EditDate: 6/19/2011 7:38:00 PM

Hi Laurel,

You know that speech the flight attendant always gives on the airplane? She says that &quot;in the event of a sudden drop in cabin pressure, the oxygen masks will drop from the ceiling. If you are traveling with a child or someone who needs assistance, be sure to put on your own mask before helping those around you.&quot;

In other words, if you drop dead, they will too, so it turns out to be anything but selfish to ensure that your own needs are met first.

Please take care of yourself.

Metta and karuna,

Kenneth

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PostId: 39128890
Number: 42
Subject: RE: Anhedonia
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/20/2011 10:33:00 AM
EditDate: 6/20/2011 10:33:00 AM

Thanks, Kenneth. It's really hard for me to remember to do that, because while I agree in theory, each demand on myself seems to carry its own compelling rationale. I'm getting gradually better at telling people to leave me alone when I've had enough. But the big picture is one that I can't quite figure out yet.

I've been reading WSH3's thread and seeing in his experience a really detailed way of observing how tension manifests during noting meditation--thanks to you as well! I also worked this morning with a CD from Sharon Salzberg's Insight Meditation, which really prompted me to note the pain in a way that observes without embedding. I had various things going on in various parts of the body, including headache from caffeine withdrawal, stiffness in the back, neck tension, and itches here and there. The itches tend to vibrate a bit, whereas the pain tends to stabilize, but even that will eventually move around and throb; in other words, change.

Last evening I tried Jhana practice, couldn't focus because of threads of narrative lodged in my head that kept repeating over and over.

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PostId: 39148212
Number: 43
Subject: Insomnia
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 8:09:00 AM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 8:09:00 AM

Was up in the night and thought I'd meditate, did about 40 minutes of concentration practice. I got settled and entered first jhana, then fell out of it. Got settled again and the same thing happened. Lately my concentration isn't worth squat. It's as if I've taken a giant step backward. I guess the best thing to do is note that. There's been a lot of chatter in my head.

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PostId: 39149021
Number: 44
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 10:32:00 AM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 10:32:00 AM

Im with you on that one - my concentration seems to wax and wane like the tides.

-I have the same issue with narratives that repeat themselves ad nauseum. I have self doubt that likes to loop in the background. More and more I am seeing that I dont need to change that in any way, it just needs to be noted as another phenomena. Seems to change depending on where I happen to be on the maps, whether I know it or not, like its all outside of my control <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

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PostId: 39149188
Number: 45
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 10:50:00 AM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 10:50:00 AM

&quot;like its all outside of my control <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->&quot;

Bingo!

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PostId: 39149212
Number: 46
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 10:53:00 AM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 10:54:00 AM

Are you sure you aren't moving into cause and effect or three characteristics? Both of these live in first jhana territory and mind and body is very similar to 1st jhana (they correspond to each other). The loss of a steady mind isn't always a sign of regression but rather of progress into deeper unstable strata of mind.

PostId: 39149679
Number: 47
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 11:41:00 AM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 11:41:00 AM

I don't know. I have heard that bodily pain is associated with three characteristics, and my pain has been increasing as of late. I'm suddenly restless at night for no apparent reason, waking up two to four times. My appetite is uneven. But I'm so confused by the map I can't tell. I'm doing some reading/writing/research today, noting in between times (hard to apply noting when I'm doing intellectual work). I plan to keep it up as much as possible.

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PostId: 39150426
Number: 48
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 12:45:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 12:46:00 PM

I would suggest using a timer and commit to focusing on your technique and executing it for the duration you have set the timer for. Stay technique focused and make sure you aren't terminating your sitting when things get bad. Don't worry too much about concentration at this point, focus more on noting at your target rate for the amount of time you sit. A good sit is one where you apply your chosen technique consistently for your entire sitting. Make sure to try and record the phenomenon you are noting in a clear way similar to Nadav's journal and look for a pattern over time rather than one in each sitting (for example: each time I sit I begin to feel pleasant after a few minutes but then wind up lost in thought, after which I find myself experiencing aches, pains, and itches. After sometime the itches become more complicated and I feel vibrations and see bright lights, etc.).

My initial reaction is to say you probably are hitting three characteristics and that if you keep up you'll eventually hit the arising and passing away again. One tip that seems to have helped a lot of yogi's is to look for bright, stable itches. They tend to be an indicator of three characteristics. If you do find one stay with it, noting it and then see if you can begin to feel a more complex texture in it. Try and break it down into something less solid (or rather see if observing it closely over a period of time begins to reveal more texture within it - vibrations, swirling, pulsing, etc.). If it disappears completely pay attention to that fact as well (note gone).

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PostId: 39150540
Number: 49
Subject: RE: Insomnia
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 12:54:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 12:54:00 PM

Thanks. I have had itches of the type you mention recently, and have noted them, and observing them doing what you suggest. I will drop the concentration for now. Yes, I've had a tendency to quit when I can't stand it (when my leg was twitching a few days ago) but will be on the lookout for that temptation. I will go and take a look at Nadav's journal now, and then get to work!

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PostId: 39151302
Number: 50
Subject: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 1:45:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 1:45:00 PM

All right, here it is: Did out-loud noting for 30 minutes. Haven't really done this seriously yet, decided now is the time. I began with doubts--how can I concentrate on a single itch if I'm out-loud noting? Lots of itches at first, some twinges of pain here and there. Noted itch moving, crawling, migrating. Noted sounds (birds squawking, ringing in ears) and an occasional thought.

Moved into a dreamy stage. Realized my noting had stopped, I was seeing images, some of them planning and anticipation related, others pure dreamy stuff. Noting out loud sleepy, dreaming, sleepy. Images, occasional music in head. More itches. Some mild twitches. Then heat in the midsection of the body, washes of light, some of it tinted orange, otherwise off-white. This pattern repeated several times (sleepiness followed by resumption of out-loud noting, itches). Doubt, restlessness, desire for timer, reminding self of importance of sticking with it. More of the same. Some anticipation, planning. Finally, timer.

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PostId: 39151384
Number: 51
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 1:51:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 1:51:00 PM

Good stuff!

PostId: 39163941
Number: 52
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 11:21:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 11:21:00 PM

Evening sit (about 30 minutes): began with relaxation, counting breath, access concentration, then noting out loud. Awkward at first, itching began, mildly, then more intense, itching was lively, lots of prickly sensations, in motion. Followed by torpor, dream images, noting stopped, then started again, reminiscing, anticipating, images, sleepiness, desire to stop and go to bed. Then a more active period, very unpleasant, lots of twitching, shaking, nausea (that seems to have been a constant throughout), not much light but occasionally some, desire to stop, fear, disorientation, confusion, then moving into a feeling of heat through legs and torso, increased heat, more and more intense, but the fear seemed to be less with this, and then finally the timer went off. I suppose if I were brave I'd have continued beyond it, but I was relieved to be able to stop.

I feel as if I'm close to something, but I don't know what. I am doing three 30 minute practice sessions a day now, morning, noon, and night, all out-loud noting.

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PostId: 39164484
Number: 53
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/21/2011 11:44:00 PM
EditDate: 6/21/2011 11:44:00 PM

If I had to guess, I'd think the more dreamy/thinking portion is cause and effect followed by the more intense three characteristics stage. Try setting the timer for a few minutes longer in each sitting. The warmth is likely to be some sort of energetic symptom. You may be close to crossing into the a&amp;p.

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PostId: 39167918
Number: 54
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/22/2011 8:44:00 AM
EditDate: 6/22/2011 8:44:00 AM

40 minute session this morning; did yoga practice beforehand, and did some breathing/concentration to settle the mind as I was going through the poses and stretches. I began noting in a relaxed and focused state, somewhat anticipating an active session, but it was surprisingly boring. I noted hunger throughout (no breakfast yet), itching (some severe), but nowhere near as much as last night. Itches settle in and then feel fizzy, like champagne. Got sick of saying &quot;itching, itching, itching.&quot; Some sleepiness, but not for any length of time. Lights pulsing alternating with dark in the visual field, mild pain here and there, mild twitching, but mostly tedium, boredom, and dryness in the lips (though not in the mouth itself). Wanting to stop, wanting something to happen. Not much mind chatter at all. Managed to sit for the entire 40 minutes; did not give in to temptation to look at clock or end session. Noted myself smiling at myself here and there. Briefly felt sense of detachment and estrangement from the body. As boredom increased, told myself to keep noting it.

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PostId: 39168227
Number: 55
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/22/2011 9:27:00 AM
EditDate: 6/22/2011 9:27:00 AM

If you're staying aware of the unpleasant aspects of the sitting without judging them as failings or failures, then you are doing exactly the right thing. (And even then, that's OK, too, as long as you notice *that* too!)

On some level, you're &quot;being meditated&quot;- changes are happening, regardless of how you react to them.

These are great reports!

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PostId: 39168885
Number: 56
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 6/22/2011 10:41:00 AM
EditDate: 6/22/2011 10:41:00 AM

&quot;40 minute session this morning; did yoga practice beforehand, and did some breathing/concentration to settle the mind as I was going through the poses and stretches. I began noting in a relaxed and focused state, somewhat anticipating an active session, but it was surprisingly boring. I noted hunger throughout (no breakfast yet), itching (some severe), but nowhere near as much as last night. Itches settle in and then feel fizzy, like champagne. Got sick of saying &quot;itching, itching, itching.&quot; Some sleepiness, but not for any length of time. Lights pulsing alternating with dark in the visual field, mild pain here and there, mild twitching, but mostly tedium, boredom, and dryness in the lips (though not in the mouth itself). Wanting to stop, wanting something to happen. Not much mind chatter at all. Managed to sit for the entire 40 minutes; did not give in to temptation to look at clock or end session. Noted myself smiling at myself here and there. Briefly felt sense of detachment and estrangement from the body. As boredom increased, told myself to keep noting it.
&quot;

Fantastic!

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PostId: 39173548
Number: 57
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/22/2011 3:04:00 PM
EditDate: 6/22/2011 3:08:00 PM

Thanks, everyone! Midday sit: 30 minutes. Did three rounds of counting 10 breaths, nice and relaxed at the outset. Feeling like there wasn't much to note, so stuck to obvious stuff--lawnmower outside, ringing in ears. Not even a good solid itch. At some point I noted that I was feeling relaxed and that this was pleasant. Have been so focused on the unpleasant stuff that I didn't know what to do about that until I came to the obvious conclusion and noted it.

Had trouble staying with the out-loud noting approach, would bog down on it with the breath, which tended to get shortened. I tried alternating silent and out-loud (which is actually very soft, almost whispering). Finally had some itches and pain in hand, ankle; stiffness in back, constriction around the midsection. Eventually noted mild nausea. Used to have lots of fear located in the belly; now it feels more like low-level indigestion. Some dreams again, some doubts (both about what I was doing right or wrong and about the practice itself). Some boredom and tedium. Timer went off.

Edit: sometimes I have trouble finding things to note, and other times I have trouble deciding what out of several competing things to note (e.g., pain in temple at the same time as an itch on the nose). This last sit I tried rapidly alternating back and forth between two or sometimes three things, just to observe the effect. Other times I would try to focus on one itch or ache at a time.

PostId: 39184910
Number: 58
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/22/2011 11:54:00 PM
EditDate: 6/22/2011 11:54:00 PM

Evening sit: 31 minutes. Began with counting 10 breaths, only twice because they became so long and slow that I just settled into a lovely state of concentration for the first time in awhile. I thought I should get down to the business of noting, but had no motivation because it felt so good I just wanted to abide there. So I did for awhile, and then dreaminess and drowsiness set in, and after awhile I started thinking, this sit is going to be a big waste if I don't get busy!

Began silent noting, and all hell broke loose. It seemed to go on for hours. I have a bit of arthritis in one of the joints of my hand; it started throbbing like mad, burning, pulsing, hurting like crazy. Then the itches from hell came on, one after another, with what felt like violence; in some cases it seemed they were breaking out in flames on my chin, with enough force to jerk my whole body. There was twitching and even vocalization when one of these monsters would hit with particular force. I watched them pulsing and throbbing almost in sympathy with the pain in my hand; at one point I was alternating noting back and forth between the two worst itches on either side of my chin, and they began to vibrate. My body started shaking--the only thing I can compare it to was an earthquake I experienced while living in California, a rather mild one as these things go, but I suddenly realized that the house was shaking from within, not because of any wind hitting the windows. That's what this shaking was like.

Of course I wanted it to be over, but I was more detached from it than I'd been last night. I was glad when the timer went off. I'm giving myself incrementally more time. As I said, this seemed to go on forever. I didn't notice any lights, but then again, I would have been hard pressed to think about them with all this other business going on.

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PostId: 39202994
Number: 59
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 6/23/2011 10:56:00 PM
EditDate: 6/23/2011 10:56:00 PM

&quot;My body started shaking--the only thing I can compare it to was an earthquake I experienced while living in California, a rather mild one as these things go, but I suddenly realized that the house was shaking from within, not because of any wind hitting the windows. That's what this shaking was like.&quot;

I'm on the edge of my seat! What happened today? You are really cookin' now, Laurel. Keep us posted.

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PostId: 39204153
Number: 60
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/23/2011 11:43:00 PM
EditDate: 6/23/2011 11:43:00 PM

Hi Kenneth--sorry to keep you in such suspense! I didn't sit until this evening; I think I have been a great big chicken all day. I can report feeling depressed, anxious about my work, frustrated, but above all depressed. I had all sorts of family/social obligations and was trying to get some work done around them.

But I sat just now; I began again with relaxation, and then was in what I think was first jhana again. I didn't wait so long to start noting this time. I anticipated more fireworks, but things started kind of slow. I began with sounds: dishwasher, refrigerator, whining in my ears, clock ticking, cars passing outside. This went on for a little; some dreaminess which I observed and got back on track again. Itches began to come into the picture finally, but they weren't as intense as last night, except for one in my ear canal. No pain to speak of. I was noting thoughts: anticipation, comparing, things like that, but eventually the spasms started in my thigh muscles, mostly on my right side, but then on the left as well. I felt some peace in between spasms, but also instability, could then feel pressure building up and my body starting to shake again.

Memories intruded: one day 25 years ago I was walking in downtown Stanford, California and a perfect stranger came up to me and asked me , would you please slap my face. I didn't do it. I began experiencing regret; maybe he needed me to do that to help him. Then I flashed into a memory of the London underground, that lingered for awhile. The spasms continued through these memories. I felt calm underlying the agitation, but also a feeling that this was unpleasant, which of course I noted. I wanted the session to end. I didn't like it. I began to feel nausea again, mild but annoying. I still feel a bit of it now.

---

PostId: 39204197
Number: 61
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/23/2011 11:45:00 PM
EditDate: 6/23/2011 11:45:00 PM

(cont.) I am going on an all-day retreat on Saturday and am hoping to pass through the A &amp; P at that point, if not before. I am really looking forward to getting past the stuff that's happening now! I'll get myself up in the morning and sit before work tomorrow. I can't let this drag on.

---

PostId: 39206944
Number: 62
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 6/24/2011 4:01:00 AM
EditDate: 6/24/2011 4:01:00 AM

Hi Laurel,

Wow...sounds like good stuff, although pretty intense to sit through I imagine.
Best of luck with the retreat, I hope it goes well and will look forward to hearing how you get on!!

---

PostId: 39207893
Number: 63
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/24/2011 8:40:00 AM
EditDate: 6/24/2011 8:40:00 AM

Thanks, Ed! I sat again this morning, this time it took 3 times counting 10 breaths to settle down. Began noting sounds, which I'm finding is a good way to start because it's pretty clear-cut. The most important was loud ringing in the ears, accompanied by a feeling of pressure in the head, which wasn't entirely unpleasant. Some itching, not intense. Itches tended to spread out over the skin rather than concentrate on a single point. Some dreaminess and torpor, but not for long periods. Mild twitching, not intense. Reminiscing thoughts, anticipatory thoughts. As time went on got bored, restless, but not as much as the other day. Feeling of heaviness through my arms and torso that lasted about 5 minutes.

I'm noticing a pattern of very active evening sits, mellow morning sits. Neither is particularly pleasant.

---

PostId: 39225104
Number: 64
Subject: RE: New Report
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/25/2011 7:18:00 AM
EditDate: 6/25/2011 7:18:00 AM

Last night's sit: took three times counting to 10 with the breath to settle down, but I could feel myself wanting to start noting right away. This sit was active but not outrageously so; there was one itch that was so awful I ended up scratching it out of pure desperation, but I don't want to let that become a habit. Very mild shaking, some thoughts passing through and getting noted, visual memories, some dreaminess, itches definitely coming and going. Phenomena are very porous and fleeting (except for that one itch). Head was pulsing a bit at the beginning, with loud noise in the ears, but even that settled down. I seem to be working through stuff rather than getting worked up to a peak experience. I was so wanting the A &amp; P to come on that I had to simply note myself having that agenda and let it go.

After I went to bed I actually kept up the noting, with all the same results, for about half an hour until I fell asleep. Today's the daylong retreat. I'll see what happens there.

---

PostId: 39234868
Number: 65
Subject: Daylong retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/25/2011 9:10:00 PM
EditDate: 6/25/2011 9:10:00 PM

The retreat was from 9:00 to 6:00. I got there a little late, feeling frazzled, did some samatha practice and settled down. The first couple of sits were typical: mixtures of alertness and dreaminess, pains and itches, sounds and thoughts, images and once in a while a story. After lunch I went back to the meditation hall and put in 40 minutes of serious practice, then the bell rang and I put in another 40 back-to-back. During those two sessions I experienced no sleepiness and got faster and faster, able to identify stuff that would have escaped me last week. I'd start thinking, I wonder if I'm going to get to A &amp; P, and note &quot;Speculating&quot; and then I'd be noting the car passing by. I didn't have any serious shakin' goin' on like Wednesday night, but I had some heat here and there, some weightiness in the arms, and eventually a the beginning of a sense that I could do this without all the doubt that's assailed me before (when I did feel doubt, I noted &quot;doubt&quot; and went on).

The person doing the noting is still &quot;I.&quot; I suppose that's the long and the short of it. On the other hand, I got in some good practice. I have to admit I was scattered during the walking meditation, with thoughts running through my head, but overall my mind is becoming more disciplined. I ended with another samatha session because I was just plain tired, and I'd been getting progressively more pain that was too much to face head on. I even popped a pain pill, sad to say.

PostId: 39234975
Number: 66
Subject: RE: Daylong retreat
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/25/2011 9:17:00 PM
EditDate: 6/25/2011 9:17:00 PM

Looking back over your posts it seems clear that you're making progress, I know that can be easy to forget when caught up in the last sit, but use it as fuel. You're doing great! Steady as she goes!

---

PostId: 39235135
Number: 67
Subject: RE: Daylong retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/25/2011 9:26:00 PM
EditDate: 6/25/2011 9:26:00 PM

Thanks, Rev. Two things I should mention just for the sake of thoroughness: these sits weren't actively unpleasant like so many I've had lately, but I am at a point where it's hard to get physically comfortable. Until the pain intensified I was able to note everything and not get drawn in by the aversion--&quot;fanny hurting, stabbing pain in wrist, shoulder pain, etc.&quot; and just go around and around with noises, thoughts, and images thrown in.

The other thing is that I had lights from time to time, sometimes a brighter white than I've had in the past (it was overcast) with an orange pinwheel coming out of it--odd, but it gave me something else to note along with all the itches, aches, and pains. I also have greatly increased my tolerance for just sitting out a session.

---

PostId: 39255607
Number: 68
Subject: Symphony of itches
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/26/2011 11:25:00 PM
EditDate: 6/26/2011 11:25:00 PM

I meditated briefly midday and then for a little over half an hour this evening. The title says it all. The midday sit was actually quite pleasant, but the evening sit was murder. I had one itch in particular that bored into my ear canal like a jackhammer. I grimaced with the pure agony of it and had all I could do not to claw at my ear with my fingernails. I had other assorted itches across my face, mostly around the chin, some of them like sharp needles boring into me, which shimmered and throbbed and came and went. I had a whole rash of itches across my forehead. My nose was afflicted for awhile. There was very little pain anywhere in the body, no nausea to speak of, quiet in the visual field, and some dreaminess and imagery. The torpor came and went, but the real story was with the itches. I'm getting mighty sick of these, so I guess I also noted a lot of impatience, anticipation, bewilderment, and the thought that this seems to be my meditation experience from here on out, I'll be stuck for the rest of my life in Three Characteristics, and I'm fed up. So I noted those thoughts. Not a whole lot of emotion associated with them, however. Just an occasional jolt when an itch escalated suddenly or a new one arose.

---

PostId: 39255781
Number: 69
Subject: RE: Symphony of itches
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/26/2011 11:32:00 PM
EditDate: 6/26/2011 11:32:00 PM

One interesting fact: I had a lot of energy today, and almost no drama. I played viola quintets at a neighbor's house, found myself shaking when I had to make an assertive entrance by myself, noted it, but didn't feel any panic or shame around it. There was fear, but no fear of the fear, and I briefly thought, people are going to think I really suck, but then gave that thought up with a shrug. Hmm. Performance anxiety in playing violin/viola has been a decades-long trauma for me. I wonder where this is leading.

---

PostId: 39255799
Number: 70
Subject: RE: Symphony of itches
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 6/26/2011 11:33:00 PM
EditDate: 6/26/2011 11:33:00 PM

&quot;I had one itch in particular that bored into my ear canal like a jackhammer. I grimaced with the pure agony of it and had all I could do not to claw at my ear with my fingernails.&quot; -Laurel

Awesome! Classic 3rd &amp;ntilde;ana. That itch is the kiss of concentration. Sit on it until it changes. Does it persist forever? Does it change? Does it fade? Does it move? Does it intensify? Dont let it out of your sight! That itch is your ticket to the A&amp;P.

Keep on keepin' on.

-Kenneth

PostId: 39255880
Number: 71
Subject: RE: Symphony of itches
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/26/2011 11:36:00 PM
EditDate: 6/26/2011 11:36:00 PM

&quot;&quot;I had one itch in particular that bored into my ear canal like a jackhammer. I grimaced with the pure agony of it and had all I could do not to claw at my ear with my fingernails.&quot; -Laurel

Awesome! Classic 3rd &amp;ntilde;ana. That itch is the kiss of concentration. Sit on it until it changes. Does it persist forever? Does it change? Does it fade? Does it move? Does it intensify? Dont let it out of your sight! That itch is your ticket to the A&amp;P.

Keep on keepin' on.

-Kenneth&quot;

Thanks, Kenneth. I hung onto them for dear life, believe me, although I hated them like the plague.

---

PostId: 39261691
Number: 72
Subject: Separation Anxiety
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/27/2011 11:27:00 AM
EditDate: 6/27/2011 11:27:00 AM

Another observation about daily life (and retreat life, come to think of it): I'm having separation anxiety from my familiar ways of being and doing. At the retreat I noted a lot of guilt over leaving my family for the day, even though they were perfectly fine. I am still going to my old church but I sit there feeling disloyal and nostalgic. I long for ordinariness. I wish I could stop this craziness and just be a &quot;normal&quot; person. For a few days my fear went away, but now it's back with a vengeance. The only thing I keep telling myself is to look around me, and ask what my alternatives are.

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PostId: 39262457
Number: 73
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 6/27/2011 12:22:00 PM
EditDate: 6/27/2011 12:22:00 PM

Hang in their Laurel!....ordinariness probably isnt all its cracked up to be. Its all very well to just note guilt and anxiety but i think you might be better investigating them CBT style. In a previous post you said metta made you quite upset......I would say thats a good thing, I stuggle to feel much at all! Direct some friendliness to yorself, to your situation and your practice. I think its great at reducing fear. Paul Gilbert has a great book called the Compassionate Mind which really describes how this stuff works!....

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PostId: 39267673
Number: 74
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/27/2011 4:45:00 PM
EditDate: 6/27/2011 4:45:00 PM

I remember when I first had a real sense that the &quot;nanas&quot; were working through me, exactly as described in the books. I had this moment where I literally stopped in my tracks, walking home from work, and I wanted to cry. I saw for the first time that all these teachings I'd been dabbling in for years are TRUE!!! and my life IS!!! going to change. Yikes! What about the part I liked?

I still loop around to this unmoored feeling from time to time.... but I also loop back again, to living in the world with the things and people that I like, and having a saner, calmer relationship to them. They're all still here...

---

PostId: 39282205
Number: 75
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 5:12:00 AM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 5:12:00 AM

Thanks, Ed and Rob! I think I was feeling doubt: maybe I could just tweak things a bit, take up some kind of exercise or new hobby, and find peace and happiness without spending hours investigating itches or watching the breath come and go! Or more to the point, without rewiring my brain in ways that I can't at this point imagine. It was a case of doubting the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness-maybe the world is capable of rendering satisfaction after all. But then last evening I saw a news item, a story of child abuse so appalling that it knocked the stuffing out of me. I was plunged into another state of doubt, for another reason: life is so fundamentally unsatisfactory that I want to check out altogether; I hate having to inhabit a world in which such horrors go on; I don't even want to be an insect or a plant in such a world as this.

I began meditating with strong emotions: grief, horror, fear, despair. Somehow I got to access concentration and then began noting. There was a lot of torpor, dreaminess, checking out, I think. Finally I began to note itches, which were subtler than the night before. I noted beginning, middle, and end on them--the duration of these sensations was unstable, changing, crawling across my skin, shimmering or fizzling. But after I stopped I was immediately upset again; I couldn't sleep (still having trouble), could think of nothing, no words, no religious doctrine, no philosophical explanation, nothing that could express, explain, encompass, or in any way atone for such suffering. It seems as if the bottom drops out sometimes and one is left staring into an abyss of pain. Ed, you mentioned the Compassionate Mind--I don't know if there's a compassion deep enough to meet it head on. So I suppose this is the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness--it sounds so bland!

PostId: 39282246
Number: 76
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 5:21:00 AM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 5:21:00 AM

(cont) But this is how it is. I see myself writing these things, feeling these things, and I guess the thing to do is just go on practicing. But what I suppose I doubt now is not-self: I personally may want not to be or have a self to be the center of such drama, and yet I can't believe that there is or was not a suffering self--the child, who has died, who is mercifully beyond all pain--that experienced those things. But I don't want how I feel about it to be The Story, which at the moment is very much the case. And so I need to keep practicing, ramp it up. May all beings be happy, may they be safe and protected, may they be healthy and free of pain, may they live with ease and joy.

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PostId: 39282913
Number: 77
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 9:05:00 AM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 9:05:00 AM

One thing that helps me (especially after retreats when I go haywire), is that no state of my mind or body seems to be static. It will come and it will go, and so will my aversion or attachment to it. &quot;oh yeah I've seen this before - I wonder what it will be like this time, OK&quot;

---

PostId: 39283263
Number: 78
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 10:02:00 AM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 10:02:00 AM

&quot;Another observation about daily life (and retreat life, come to think of it): I'm having separation anxiety from my familiar ways of being and doing. At the retreat I noted a lot of guilt over leaving my family for the day, even though they were perfectly fine. I am still going to my old church but I sit there feeling disloyal and nostalgic. I long for ordinariness. I wish I could stop this craziness and just be a &quot;normal&quot; person. For a few days my fear went away, but now it's back with a vengeance. The only thing I keep telling myself is to look around me, and ask what my alternatives are. &quot;

This is very familiar, Laurel. Balancing insight disease with family responsibilities can be tough. For example, this weekend my wife was out of town and my kids were at my mom's. For me, there was no question as to how I would spend this time: I would not be, say, doing leisurely bike rides or having beers with friends; instead, I was intent on spending hours and hours on the cushion.
This insight disease is quite strange, huh? I've also had the thought that I'd like to get this over with in order to get back to some kind of normalcy.
During the retreat, my mother-in-law, who lives with us, started having chest pains, unbeknownst to me. My wife was frantically trying to reach me on my cell. Afterward, I listened to my messages and was hit with so much guilt. There was guilt about leaving the kids with my mom and about not having been accessible during the retreat; a weird feeling that there's something shameful and wrong about being so focused on meditation.
Was I dark-nighting it after the retreat--lots of sadness and disappointment--or was I just down because SE didn't occur? These dynamics aren't easy to explain even to fellow meditators, at least in a mainstream setting. This is why KFD is such a valuable community. Hang in there! You're making great progress, and these are fantastic reports.

---

PostId: 39291190
Number: 79
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 5:33:00 PM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 5:34:00 PM

Hi Laurel, that sounds awful. There is no getting away from how harsh the world is, I find as I get older, stories in the news affect me more, make me feel sick and even in some cases, seem to burn something awful on to my brain. I'll confess its taken me years but I eventually stopped reading the newspaper and listening to news........but somethings you cant escape. .... 'This to shall pass'!.....as the saying goes.

hang in there!

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PostId: 39291444
Number: 80
Subject: RE: Separation Anxiety
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/28/2011 5:44:00 PM
EditDate: 6/28/2011 5:44:00 PM

You are the greatest--all of you. I can only imagine how I would feel if someone had chest pains while I was out of communication because of meditation--and that weird feeling about meditation being shameful and wrong is something I feel a lot. I imagine people think I'm self-absorbed, which of course is absolutely true, but I'm doing meditation to get past all of that! Ed, I think you're right about the harmful effects of paying too much attention to the news. It's particularly bad for me to do at night. While I'm grieving over a child I can't help, there's another child in my own home that I have an obligation to care for--and I'm meditating so that I'll be able to be better able to do that, among other things. This community has been an enormous help to me, both sharing my concerns and reading about others' experiences.

I had to drive 45 minutes each way to an appointment this morning, so I noted in the car. I've read about people doing that, and have finally gotten into the habit. When I started out I had been running narrative threads through my brain, which is typical while I'm driving, but I settled into noting and the time passed profitably and even pleasantly. I just finished a sit and noted the usual assortment of itches, aches and pains, sounds, torpor, lights, and an occasional thought. The itches are getting more and more lively, less stable. I noted myself waiting for something more to happen. One of these days it will.

PostId: 39299056
Number: 81
Subject: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 12:18:00 AM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 12:18:00 AM

Evening sit: about an hour. I'm going to try to reconstruct this.

Began with the usual pattern, three times counting 10 breaths, access concentration, began noting. Alternation between torpor, dreaminess and alertness, dreaminess kept coming back, I kept recalling myself. Then the itches started. I did what Kenneth told me to do: held onto them, observed them, didn't let them go. For awhile they were nothing much, but then I got some really good ones. They were like fiery insects crawling across my face, shimmering, almost beautiful. I followed them and followed them.

Then the shaking started. It felt wild, like I was being shaken like a rag doll. It was mostly in my arms and hands, but it affected my entire torso. My legs were quiet for the most part. Then I noticed a feeling of compression in the back of my neck, moving up the back of the head. It moved slowly and painfully. It was deeply unpleasant, and it kept intensifying, and all the while the shaking was getting more and more violent.

Then I felt my face screw up in a grimace, which seemed to last for a long time. Eventually it relaxed. In the meantime, the tension in the head and neck got worse; I thought my head was going to blow off.

---

PostId: 39299189
Number: 82
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 12:27:00 AM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 12:27:00 AM

(cont.) Finally things began to shift, settle down, the shaking and compression eased, and I felt one, and then a second bliss wave pass over me. My body settled into a rapid vibration, which went on for a long time. My chattering mind was commenting on this the whole time, wondering what was going on, thinking about how I would describe it (which of course I'm doing now). I also wondered what people would say about it--what was happening to me.

Then the pressure began again, and the itches as well. The compression went up the neck and back of the head, this time more pronounced on the right side. The shaking came back, but this time it wasn't as wild, and it took over my whole upper body. I began to let go, to tell myself to sit back and let this run its course. The compression in the head got worse and worse, and I got a little anxious about it. Eventually it passed and settled down again. My body gradually stopped shaking and became calm. It took me a few minutes to decide that I was finished with it, at least for now.

---

PostId: 39301353
Number: 83
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 7:12:00 AM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 7:12:00 AM

Awesome!

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PostId: 39310653
Number: 84
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 6:27:00 PM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 6:27:00 PM

Good job!! Strange things can be progress on this path. lol!
Keep doing what you're doing, it seems to be working.

---

PostId: 39312129
Number: 85
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 7:47:00 PM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 7:47:00 PM

Great things are happening!! Although, as Rev said... strange!

PostId: 39316912
Number: 86
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/29/2011 11:57:00 PM
EditDate: 6/29/2011 11:57:00 PM

Okay, now I'm worried--when this group thinks I'm strange, then I must really be getting strange!

Tonight's sit (which just ended a few minutes ago) went almost exactly the same as last night's. It lasted over an hour. During that time the timer went off and I turned it off, my husband came home, walked into the room, into the kitchen, made a big rumpus getting an evening snack, opening and shutting the refrigerator, etc., and I was mid-eruption of trembling and compression. I was noting annoyance, wishing he'd get the hell out of my space already, sounds, and all the while this process was unfolding without missing a beat. I don't know whether I could have interrupted it if I'd wanted to; quite frankly, I think it would be a bad idea.

Like last night, there were two buildups of trembling; unlike last night, the compression in the head and neck occurred only with the second one. I began the same as last night with samatha, got into first jhana and felt nice bliss, calm, expansion, absorption, but then began noting gradually. Things unfolded from this foundation of calm. I had itches, the whole works, but the itches weren't all that important any more; they were just a vehicle or a prelude to what came next.

---

PostId: 39317087
Number: 87
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 12:06:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 12:06:00 AM

In the early stages I started having twitches in my legs (something that hasn't happened for awhile), and lots of sleepiness--or rather dreaminess, which I didn't mind because I knew it would eventually go away as I moved further into things. Then the shaking started, this time all over my body, and went on so long I began to get bored with it. I noted myself wanting something more to happen (of course the A&amp;P with all the bells and whistles, right?), but then the shaking subsided. In between bouts of trembling I felt the vibrations again, and during the second round, when the compression and pain in the head started up, I felt the same anxiety I'd felt last night, except it was perhaps worse. I decided to stay with the pain, to focus my attention on it. It moved from the neck up the length of the head at a rate that was torture, so slow, and it bore down, getting more and more intense. It was unlike any headache I've ever had, and I know headaches.

I was less inclined to chatter to myself this time; when I got tempted to do it I just noted what I was up to. The pain went on and on, and I thought, this must be what purgatory is like, and I briefly wondered whether it wasn't purgatory but actually hell, meaning it wasn't going to stop. I just let it happen, let myself worry while it happened, and then eventually it subsided, leaving my entire body in a state of vibration again.

---

PostId: 39317236
Number: 88
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 12:14:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 12:14:00 AM

A further word or two about the vibrations, and then I'm almost done: it feels like extremely fine grains of sand, all of them energized, with a very refined electrical pulse, all in motion. It's actually kind of nice.

I have a theory about all of this mayhem, which is that I'm working through some powerful blocked energy. What's weird is watching it happen. I had no idea I had the potential to experience any of this stuff. I have no idea what's coming next. Another thing that's weird: I'm experiencing the pain but not as an affliction. Somehow I know while it's going on that it's not really hurting me.

---

PostId: 39319584
Number: 89
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: Ed76
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 3:38:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 3:38:00 AM

Hey, Sounds tough but yet also like something is working itself out at an energetic level. My sister has been in Austrralia for 2 years or so learning a healing system based on energy work. In the first year she came home and told me that when she was sitting she was expreincing masive shaking in her shoulder area. She could supress it in the day but when she sat it became very strong (i think she even took to mediating lying down as a result). I was little freaked out by it, but I hadnt really accepted the whole energy thing at that stage. She said she was told it was a little like a hose pipe, with too much water coming through it that sort of twitches and wriggles. Ill email and see what happened, but im sure its a good thing!

---

PostId: 39320220
Number: 90
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: jgroove
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 7:47:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 7:47:00 AM

&quot;A further word or two about the vibrations, and then I'm almost done: it feels like extremely fine grains of sand, all of them energized, with a very refined electrical pulse, all in motion. It's actually kind of nice.

I have a theory about all of this mayhem, which is that I'm working through some powerful blocked energy. What's weird is watching it happen. I had no idea I had the potential to experience any of this stuff. I have no idea what's coming next. Another thing that's weird: I'm experiencing the pain but not as an affliction. Somehow I know while it's going on that it's not really hurting me. &quot;

Very interesting. Keep us posted, Laurel!

PostId: 39320247
Number: 91
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 7:54:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 7:54:00 AM

Thanks for the comment, Ed! I trust that if I'm doing something dangerous, someone will warn me here. I'll be interested to hear how your sister is doing.

Morning sit: 45 mins., followed the pattern of less eventful mornings. Good focus at beginning, but lots of torpor, dreaming. Noted silently for awhile, then realized I was floundering and drifting off a lot, so began out-loud noting and kept it up for awhile, went back to silent when things were too fast. Mostly mild (very mild) shaking in body, some buildup of heat, feeling of vibrations in body (but not as clearly as last night). Noted doubt, speculation, anticipation, disappointment, concern, guilt over abandoning family, worry over how the day would go, feeling vaguely weird and foolish, performance anxiety, and the like, over and over. Some itching, mild on the whole. Hunger. All of these thoughts, sensations, and sounds were very understated. A bit of boredom, fussing about the timer (should I leave it on? Turn it off?), some thinking of bailing, which I noted and from which I moved on.

I'm thinking that this was valuable even without much happening. Yesterday I kind of punted on daytime sits, saving it for night. I'm going to try to work in an afternoon session today.

I'm feeling vaguely concerned about how focused I'm getting on this and how I may tend to ignore other obligations, although this hasn't literally been the case--except for last evening, when I spent a long time reading other journals to get some perpective on my own situation.

---

PostId: 39320285
Number: 92
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 8:04:00 AM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 8:04:00 AM

&quot;Very interesting. Keep us posted, Laurel!&quot;

Thanks, jgroove! Your comment posted almost exactly at the same time as my update.

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PostId: 39322801
Number: 93
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 12:30:00 PM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 12:30:00 PM

All of this is classic 4th &amp;ntilde;ana, Laurel. Welcome to the A&amp;P. Keep on keepin' on.

Kenneth

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PostId: 39323034
Number: 94
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 12:45:00 PM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 12:45:00 PM

These reports really are great. You are doing exactly the right thing, even if feelings, reactions, symptoms, etc. change- no sitting will ever be like the previous one!

&quot;I'm feeling vaguely concerned about how focused I'm getting on this and how I may tend to ignore other obligations, although this hasn't literally been the case.&quot;

This stage of things does bring on a kind of obsessional intensity, and there are times you have to kind of Pretend To Be Normal. (Which, if you've lived with depression and fibromyalgia, you must know ALL about).

When I went through the first A&amp;P/Dark Night lap (at least the first that I recognized as such), I kept reflecting that these bizarre surges of energy, emotion, and sensation were objectless. They didn't come from anything, they weren't caused by anything, they didn't mean that I had to do something special. They never last, not even 20 minutes. That helped a bit.

I imagine that, for the next little bit, you'll probably sway wildly between (1) &quot;I should meditate way more to get through this!!&quot; and (2) &quot;I should stop meditiating completely before I go nuts!!&quot; But on some level, &quot;you&quot; aren't making this happen. It's all working itself out without &quot;you&quot;. (I mean, that's not entirely true, either. It's just another view, but it's a useful counterpoint to the instinct to feel you are running the show).

Just choose a reasonable, regular pace, and stay on friendly terms with the Normal. It is still there, waiting for you, I promise!

---

PostId: 39334859
Number: 95
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: meekan
CreationDate: 6/30/2011 11:10:00 PM
EditDate: 6/30/2011 11:10:00 PM

Things sure seem to be cooking!
<!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

PostId: 39338958
Number: 96
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/1/2011 8:15:00 AM
EditDate: 7/1/2011 8:15:00 AM

Thanks everyone! Rob, what you said yesterday is spot-on: I've been going through precisely the alternation you mention, between wanting to push on and wanting to stop. I've also missed Normal in precisely the way you describe. Right now I've taken a day off to catch up on work and on sleep. I had let a few things slide. It's reassuring to have my experiences put into context: none of this is specific to me as an individual.

I read Daniel's account of the A&amp;P on interactive Buddha and saw that he went through exactly the same stuff while on retreat. It lasted for quite awhile before he came to the A&amp;P event itself. So I'm going to chill and trust things will unfold in their own sweet time. I'm leaving for a 9-day retreat in a week; in the meantime I plan to resume practicing today.

There is one thing I'm curious about, and that's why all my active sessions happen at night, whereas nothing in particular happens in the morning or even in the afternoon. Is there something special about time of day? What would happen if I never meditated at night, just during the day? I suppose it's a silly question; I'd arrive at something sooner or later. But I still am intrigued by the pattern.

---

PostId: 39346342
Number: 97
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/1/2011 6:03:00 PM
EditDate: 7/6/2011 5:01:00 PM

Another calm afternoon sit, 45 minutes. Began with counting 1-10 three times, then decided to rest a bit longer as concentration felt weak, got to 1st Jhana, enjoyed it and didn't want to leave. Eventually began silent noting, first with sounds, then with thoughts, sensations. Some dreaminess came and went, lots of uncharacteristic brightness in visual field, came and went as well. Noted cars, birds, ringing in ears. Not much pain or itching, just a twinge here and there. I kept this up for awhile, then realized I was spacing out and got myself back into a more rigorous effort at noting. Decided after awhile to focus on the ringing in ears, which was a fine vibration, and then a few itches started, which also vibrated. The light vibrated as well, and it would come and go. Noted evaluating thoughts, comparing thoughts, a few anxious thoughts. On the whole pleasant and restful. Body felt a bit unstable, however; wasn't twitching or trembling, but felt less solid than in ordinary life. Noted that. Not quite the vibrations I had the other night. Phone rang a couple of times; first time was very jarring, after that didn't much matter, noted a few minutes later that I was not affected by it. Timer went off.

---

PostId: 39356402
Number: 98
Subject: RE: Fireworks
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/2/2011 9:00:00 AM
EditDate: 7/2/2011 9:00:00 AM

50 minutes last evening. Began counting, lots of distraction. Rested for awhile, then began noting. There was a long, frustrating period of silent noting during which I repeatedly lost focus, and found myself in dreamland. I would try to pull myself back in and then get lost again. On top of that I got confused, couldn't figure out whether to observe phenomena closely, or note them by name. So I noted &quot;confused,&quot; but then I began to think I was losing my technique, and that this lousy session was my punishment for being a bad student (you can tell what my conditioning has been!). So I noted &quot;story.&quot;

The itches rescued me from this period of being half awake. As soon as one of them hit my leg or arm began twitching. There weren't a lot of them, but there were enough to eventually trigger the trembling, which took over the entire body and became more extreme than at any previous time. The itches subsided, the trembling increased. There was a bit of pressure in the head, but it didn't travel all the way up, and didn't intensify to the same degree as previously. I ditched the timer (I'm not even going to use one at night any more) and waited for the whole episode to subside on its own, which it did, leaving me with the vibrations. I sat through those, and then they subsided. I'm not sure whether I should have powered my way through to another episode, but it was after 11:00 and time for bed.

Comment about out-loud noting: I'm finding it difficult at the moment, but probably I should push myself to get back to it. I've noticed, though, that even noting out-loud I can find myself drifting off and losing it.

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PostId: 39371790
Number: 99
Subject: Same old same old
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/3/2011 8:38:00 AM
EditDate: 7/3/2011 8:38:00 AM

I got bored and tired of the third nana, with itches and aches and pains, when that was what was happening every night. Now I'm getting bored and tired of the shaking that seemed so impressive a week ago. Last night's sit was about 50 minutes. I began with the breathing, but didn't really settle completely. I decided to start noting anyway. This time twitching started up almost immediately, and eventually resolved itself into shaking. There is now no gap between an itch coming up and the shaking; the body responds immediately to the itch, sometimes even anticipating it. The itch doesn't even have to be all that severe; just the hint of one starts up the shaking. This time I'd say there was even more twitching than shaking, meaning more significant movement. I didn't have much if any pressure in the head. There was some torpor here and there, but not as much as the night before. Eventually it calmed down. I didn't end up with the vibrations this time, for some reason. I just decided to end it.

I didn't manage to sit this morning, and I'm taking off with the family for an overnight trip, which means an interruption to practice. On Friday I leave for IMS.

BTW, I caught a thread on DhO about a new forum called &quot;Ruthless Truth.&quot; It sounds as if the originator of the practice is aiming to pound the illusion of a self out of people with a sledgehammer, as opposed to exposing it gradually through insight. Hmm.

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PostId: 39372597
Number: 100
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 7/3/2011 10:54:00 AM
EditDate: 7/3/2011 10:54:00 AM

&quot;Ruthless Truth&quot; hmmm... Interesting. I've been following it as well. Seems almost like a spiritual pyramid scheme somehow. If you say on the site there is no &quot;I&quot; you are deemed enlightened, then you're supposed to go enlighten others.(maybe not that simple, but pretty close) There may be something to it, but they seem to have pretty low standards for enlightenment. Maybe they'll take over the DHO now.

PostId: 39396687
Number: 101
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/4/2011 6:32:00 PM
EditDate: 7/4/2011 6:32:00 PM

Yes, well, I suppose there's a bit of curiosity at work for me, but I'm going to just look and then keep on doing what I'm doing.

I managed to get up while my husband and son were still asleep this morning and get in 45 minutes meditation and an hour's worth of incredibly slow, mindful yoga. The meditation was irritatingly plagued with sleepiness (maybe I should have just stayed in bed, huh?). That's my biggest problem these days. I had some itching, some movement in my legs and arms, but nothing dramatic. I didn't get all that focused to begin with, which may have been part of the problem. I feel it as backsliding, although people have told me and others on this website that what's happening is new. I feel as if I've lost my capability. I'm not complaining about it, because I think feeling that way is part of the process, and I just have to make a note of it and let it go. But what I really want to do is WAKE UP! Is torpor a form of avoidance, or what? Sometimes it leads into the next stage, and other times it just keeps repeating endlessly. This morning was the latter.

It's good to be home; it was a brief getaway.

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PostId: 39398225
Number: 102
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 7/4/2011 8:11:00 PM
EditDate: 7/4/2011 8:11:00 PM

Dissolution perhaps...

You might want to read up on that stage

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PostId: 39398858
Number: 103
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/4/2011 8:49:00 PM
EditDate: 7/4/2011 8:49:00 PM

It's hard to believe it's dissolution because I never went through a full-blown A&amp;P event, just a lot of trembling, although I suppose the vibrations are something else again. But you may be right. I'll see--with my luck I'll have a full-blown case of fear, misery, and disgust. Been through enough of that as it is.

Did some concentration practice this evening, managed to settle into a nice meditative state, but it wasn't completely stable. Took a long time to get there, then spent about 15 minutes absorbed and then came out of it, found myself unable to settle again. Altogether lasted about 35 minutes or so. But at least I didn't fall asleep.

I'll see what happens on the retreat. In the meantime, I want to try to keep the ball rolling.

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PostId: 39400639
Number: 104
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 7/4/2011 11:02:00 PM
EditDate: 7/4/2011 11:02:00 PM

I never had a full-blown A&amp;P Event, in the dramatic way they sometimes describe... just a few days where I felt like I was riding high.

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PostId: 39401331
Number: 105
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/4/2011 11:59:00 PM
EditDate: 7/4/2011 11:59:00 PM

You've got a point--and now that I reread my posts, it sounds pretty dramatic overall. The dissolution description sounds eerily like what I'm experiencing now. I have to admit I'm so mellow I'm ready to melt away.

Well, this sure is an interesting ride! I'll see how it goes. I gather that now would be a good time to hone the concentration skills a bit, to power my way through the rest of the path.

PostId: 39405955
Number: 106
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 7/5/2011 11:17:00 AM
EditDate: 7/5/2011 11:17:00 AM

my experience with the big vs small A&amp;P is that the big ones I have had were always preceded by extremely nasty buildups, like walking around for days with this intensely unpleasant sensation in your chest and throat or head, a twitching, nasty, 'you'll do anything to get away from this' sensation - then the A&amp;P ends up being a sudden release of this buildup. I've also gotten attached to the 'events' that come from this kind of A&amp;P, which of course seem to be one-off deals. I'm happier having the shorter, milder ones with very little buildup to them!

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PostId: 39405997
Number: 107
Subject: RE: Same old same old
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 7/5/2011 11:19:00 AM
EditDate: 7/5/2011 11:19:00 AM

It won't be long before you start feeling like you are *losing* your concentration, and the present moment starts running out ahead of you. Working on concentration skills might exacerbate a sense of failure around that, so don't feel obliged. In reality, your whole notion of what concentration is is changing as we speak.

You'll go from seeing concentration as &quot;focus on a fixed and stable point&quot; to seeing it as &quot;living with a giant, ever-changing panorama&quot;. On the way it will seem like you are losing concentration, when actually you are gaining a better kind of concentration.

I think it was Jackson who made a point that the Dark Night is related to avoidance strategies. The path is *happening to you* at the moment, and &quot;control&quot; or &quot;power through&quot; strategies will be like holding back the tide with a teaspoon. Surrender! Everything you experience from now on is just a passing phenomenon, no matter how much it tries to convince you that &quot;I WILL FEEL THIS WAY FOREVER&quot;. Not true! Each feeling disappears in not even 20 minutes!

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PostId: 39408980
Number: 108
Subject: not the same
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/5/2011 2:25:00 PM
EditDate: 7/5/2011 2:25:00 PM

&quot;It won't be long before you start feeling like you are *losing* your concentration, and the present moment starts running out ahead of you. Working on concentration skills might exacerbate a sense of failure around that, so don't feel obliged. In reality, your whole notion of what concentration is is changing as we speak.

You'll go from seeing concentration as &quot;focus on a fixed and stable point&quot; to seeing it as &quot;living with a giant, ever-changing panorama&quot;. On the way it will seem like you are losing concentration, when actually you are gaining a better kind of concentration.
&quot;

Oh trust me, that ship has definitely sailed. Concentration on a fixed point is gone, which should be interesting b/c I have to write a book review before I leave Friday. But right now it's all good, I'm totally mellow, might have been smoking some grass for all I can tell <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) --> . I guess the A&amp;P was what it was, and now it's dissolution. I was reading an old thread on Jhana and Nana from a year back, and Kenneth said something about post A&amp;P types with inadequate concentration skills tend to have trouble. I hope that isn't me; that's why I suggested Jhana practice for myself.

I know one thing, I really don't feel like doing precise noting. Whereas a couple of days ago I felt like a pro at it, I feel now as if I'm back to pre-Kindergarten. I can't focus enough to name anything, or get up enough enthusiasm to stay awake for it.

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PostId: 39409111
Number: 109
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/5/2011 2:32:00 PM
EditDate: 7/5/2011 2:32:00 PM

I went to see my yoga teacher this morning and we did a session of chakra balancing; I think it will help me survive the Dark Night. It was kind of hard b/c we were supposed to do visualization to work through blockages, and I couldn't visualize anything, being in dissolution. She's very intrigued by what I'm doing; she's working with a different system, and was careful not to do anything that might interfere, but has knowledge of the Theravadan system I'm working with. In the end we were able to do some good work.

BTW, I mentioned that I have much different results in the evening than at any other time, and she said it's b/c the periods of sunrise and sunset are especially good times for stuff to get moving. My evening time is at sunset these days; I know in the winter the late afternoon will probably take over as the more active period. By the time I meditate in the a.m. the sun has already been up for awhile. Anyway, I thought I'd mention it, b/c it's the first explanation I've had of why things follow a pattern day in and day out. The same things would eventually unfold, but take longer, if I only sat during the day.

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PostId: 39421494
Number: 110
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/6/2011 12:02:00 AM
EditDate: 7/6/2011 12:02:00 AM

Let's see if I can get up the energy to write this report. I meditated for about 45 minutes at around sunset tonight. I was determined to stick with noting and not be deterred by sleepiness and torpor, but it made no difference--I'd note for a bit and think, this is okay now, and then dreamland would interrupt. After slogging along like this for an eternity I checked the timer, and I was only half done. I thought, I can't take any more of this, so I got up and finished the session with walking meditation. It was like walking through deep sand, or mud. I felt like one of the souls in Dante's Inferno, the circle of the hypocrites, where souls trudged around in an eternal circle wearing leaden cloaks. I wondered whether souls in Dante's hell could experience change, an increase in tedium, a sense of long, long time passing, or if they existed in an eternal now of torment, and whether an eternal now wouldn't be as much of a torment as a sense of time passing slowly. I noted this. I got really philosophical trudging back and forth, and noted it. I got bored and frustrated, but not too frustrated b/c I had no energy for it, and noted it. I was on a carpet, and it felt uneven beneath my feet. I noted how that felt with each step. I also felt as if the carpet and the floor were askew, not completely straight, as if the floor were dipping and swerving ever so slightly as I moved along. I got a touch of vertigo, and queasiness in the stomach.

It was a long, long slog. I made it to the end, although I checked the timer just as it was about to go off, so I didn't make it absolutely to the end. I've never enjoyed a walking meditation less. I began to wonder how I'll make it through a 9 day retreat.

PostId: 39421506
Number: 111
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: EndInSight
CreationDate: 7/6/2011 12:03:00 AM
EditDate: 7/6/2011 12:03:00 AM

Hi Laurel,

Just to throw in my two cents, the first A&amp;P event I had while meditating was sort of like what you describe, but even more anticlimactic and underwhelming (a lot of shaking eventually leading up to a few second's worth of a LOT of shaking). I didn't believe it was A&amp;P until the dark night started kicking my ass.

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PostId: 39421645
Number: 112
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/6/2011 12:10:00 AM
EditDate: 7/6/2011 12:10:00 AM

Thanks, EndinSight. I gather that this is the Dark Night kicking my ass. I was in a state of dull depression all day today, couldn't concentrate to do any meaningful work, had no energy whatsoever. I took my son to his soccer practice, and a guy backed into my car in the parking lot, leaving a dent in my passenger side door. I matter-of-factly got his insurance information; it didn't even faze me, although I felt vaguely sorry for the kid (he was young), thinking young drivers need to make these kinds of mistakes to learn how to pay attention in parking lots. Back home I wanted to mow the lawn or at least do some weeding, had absolutely no energy. I made myself go for a walk, just to get off my butt and get some exercise. It didn't do much for me, but I'm glad I did it.

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PostId: 39445504
Number: 113
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/7/2011 10:08:00 AM
EditDate: 7/7/2011 10:08:00 AM

Last night's sit was confusing and unpleasant. Lasted about 45 minutes. After counting breaths I began with some serious out-loud noting, which went on and on and on, nothing much happening. Shifted to silent noting, when I noticed myself losing focus I shifted back. Went back and forth with it for awhile, then noticed some mild twitching, itching here and there, but mostly lots of pain popping up in odd places--my upper arm, big toe, etc.--all over the body. This seemed to precipitate some mild shaking, nothing like what I had before. It went on for awhile, with the beginnings of pressure in the head, but nothing like before. Subsided into vibrations. These lasted awhile, then built up into more jumpiness and shaking, then eased up a bit. Stopped the sit when the timer went off but maintained my meditative state, got to bed. Then things got really unpleasant, and I remembered I hadn't taken my #*!&amp;$! medicine. The sooner I can taper that stuff the better, but not while on retreat.

Had flickerings of fear and sadness, but nothing that I could trace to strong sensations in the body. All day yesterday in a state of mild apprehension, couldn't concentrate well but got some stuff done for a change. Today I'm feeling mild sadness, separation anxiety, but it's as if there's a great big cottony buffer between myself and the world. Both yesterday and today feel like a mild hangover (and yes, I know hangovers from my foolish youth). No real pain today, but some unsettledness in the digestive tract, verging on nausea.

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PostId: 39447389
Number: 114
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: mumuwu
CreationDate: 7/7/2011 12:34:00 PM
EditDate: 7/7/2011 12:34:00 PM

The Nausea... yeah, I got used to it after a while... Disgust nana!

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PostId: 39455018
Number: 115
Subject: RE: not the same
Author: RevElev
CreationDate: 7/7/2011 6:46:00 PM
EditDate: 7/7/2011 6:46:00 PM

Welcome to the dukkha nanas! I found this to be bizarro world, up is down and black is white. If it feels like you're doing it wrong, you're doing it right. Feel like your going backwards, here in bizarro world that's progress! Keep going it doesn't last, unless you give up now.
Something that helped me was that mumuwu, called it dookie bananas, which is a lot less sinister sounding then it feels. Thanks again for that one, man!!

PostId: 39575131
Number: 116
Subject: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/17/2011 5:56:00 PM
EditDate: 7/17/2011 5:56:00 PM

I'm back from 8 days at IMS, feeling in a bit of a daze, but beginning to come 'round. I have a lot to report, won't begin to get it all down here, but will do my best to get up to date.

First of all, the teachers of the retreat weren't much interested in hearing my theories of where I am on the insight map, although one of them did ask me what I thought was going on when I told her about my shaking and vibrations. This was on the second day. At that point, I'd been battling torpor the entire time, and was finding it an uphill battle. She didn't confirm or refute my answer (that I'd gone through the A&amp;P), but told me that any opening is apt to be followed by backlash from the hindrances, and said I might even be in for a whole week of spacing out, but not to worry, not to try to get back any particular experience just to get back to it. I decided to see what unfolded, and lo and behold, I got more shaking and monster itches and all that sort of thing that very day, plus an extraordinary rapture wave or two that brought tears to my eyes. So I signed up for an interview with one of the other teachers. This particular teacher had a strong affiliation with the Thai Forest tradition and Ajanh Chah, and told me outright that he was extremely sceptical of all maps, advising me to retain a complete suspension of expectations. He also advised me to avoid anapanasati and follow the breath into the body, to ground myself better rather than staying in my head. At that point I was having a lot of shoulder pain.

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PostId: 39575281
Number: 117
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/17/2011 6:04:00 PM
EditDate: 7/17/2011 6:04:00 PM

So I did that. I also fretted considerably over the conflicting advice I've been getting: I can only assume that he would not approve of the kind of feedback loop we engage in on this forum, and of course I'm an academic, which means I did well in school, where one progresses from one grade to the next, jumping through the requisite hoops all the way to whatever terminal degree one is seeking. I see my tendency to look for a corresponding kind of structure here, and I don't see this tendency as a strength.

I had trouble stopping the thought-loops of wondering who's right and who's wrong, or if maybe there's something to be taken from both approaches, or whatever. A lot of this was trying to think my way through the problem, and it occupied another day or so of the retreat. I finally really got into meditating in earnest (not that I wasn't doing that already), and had a combination of sits, some of which involved struggling mightily to stay awake, sometimes accompanied by lots of back, shoulder, and neck pain; others of which involved shaking, sometimes not unpleasant, other times miserably twitching and spazzing out; and still others involving nice relaxed states of noting with ease. I used a combination of noting and bare awareness. Towards the end I treated myself to a jhana with my old standby of anapanasati and had such lovely bliss I thought I had died and gone to heaven.

My thoughts were sometimes miserably intrusive, but grew less so as the week wore on. I also became more and more focused in moving between sitting and walking meditation. The walking, in fact, was a great relief from the difficulties of sitting at many points. I felt some real openings while walking, and on the whole was more uniformly focused during those periods.

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PostId: 39575501
Number: 118
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/17/2011 6:14:00 PM
EditDate: 7/17/2011 6:14:00 PM

One other phenomenon that showed up about four or five times was a feeling of static electricity crackling all over my skin. This wasn't particularly uncomfortable, and would continue after getting up from the chair, in a couple of cases all the way up the stairs and into my room, where I'd do a stretch or two before settling in to bed. I also had lots of mood swings, including several waves of uncontrollable sadness, the knot in the gut fear that is so familiar, and one clear experience of disgust during walking meditation that was unmistakable. I had another walking meditation earlier in the retreat that felt as if the floor was tilting under my feet. At other times I had the fine vibrations that I was experiencing at home before the retreat.

So what I'm describing is a mixed bag, in no particular order. I avoided eating in between meals, refraining even from making a cup of tea. I never blew off walking meditation. After meals I'd sit quietly and just observe things, doing a kind of noting combined with bare awareness (I found noting particularly helpful in disembedding from thought threads). I did a lot of stretching, because I was dealing with so much pain, not constant, but frequent. During walking meditation, for example, the weight of my arms hurt my shoulders, and my lower back became stiff and painful. I tried adjusting my seat, moving from a chair to a cushion and back again, all to no avail. That was one of my biggest hurdles. Re-entry was disorienting (the airport was miserable), and I've been pretty much out of it, but treating myself gently all day.

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PostId: 39575728
Number: 119
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/17/2011 6:24:00 PM
EditDate: 7/17/2011 6:24:00 PM

One last point: the retreat experience at IMS was not for me the mushroom culture I found described in MCTB, but I don't know what it would have been like had I not had the benefit of that book and this forum. The instruction was in the four foundations of mindfulness, unfolded over the days. It was good for me to have already encountered this teaching here at KFD. Mostly, the group interviews stayed focused on practice, and teachers did not encourage or allow us to wander off into musings about content. They kept us grounded in our bodies, and in particular emphasized the need to note rather than attempt to stop whatever phenomenon or hindrance we were dealing with. For example, in response to my complaints about intrustive thoughts, they said to note these thoughts, not to get involved in trying to counter them in any way. This is of course the key to it all, and yet it is the easiest thing in the world to forget.

One other thing: we did metta practice, and I worked on that most mornings doing my yogi dishwashing job as well as in the practice sessions and in the walking meditation that followed. Got some openings there, not necessarily pleasant (a bit of crying). But the biggest change was that by the end of the retreat I had finally come to prefer practice to the compelling narratives that I have found so hard to give up in the past. In fact, when one such narrative began repeating at one point, I shifted to noting and felt a distinct sense of relief. The teachings on anatta were extremely helpful in my beginning to understand the process by which I construct myself with narratives, although there has been some backlash in the form of wishing I could have my old life back! I am noting this and letting myself reintegrate to family life. I am keeping an open mind about what my practice will be like at home now.

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PostId: 39581844
Number: 120
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 7/17/2011 11:04:00 PM
EditDate: 7/17/2011 11:04:00 PM

I'd say you had a great retreat, Laurel. Sounds like a lot of dukkha nanas, which, although unpleasant, are a good sign of progress. Thanks for the update and keep us posted; the dukkha nanas are just part of the passing parade and there is lots of good stuff on the horizon. Meanwhile, keep us in the loop!

PostId: 39631944
Number: 121
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/20/2011 9:17:00 AM
EditDate: 7/20/2011 9:17:00 AM

Thanks, Kenneth. I don't know whether this is normal, but I have had no desire to meditate since getting back, and have only done so once, without much of anything to report. I am feeling sad and kind of unmotivated to do much of anything. The world seems flat to me. I am glad to see my family again, but I feel sleepy or spacey and have no emotions to speak of, just a blah feeling. That's the latest, for what it's worth.

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PostId: 39665887
Number: 122
Subject: RE: Back from retreat
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/21/2011 9:34:00 PM
EditDate: 7/21/2011 9:34:00 PM

I continue in my unmotivated, emotionally-muted way. I meditated 30 mins. this morning, pleasant sit, actually, a bit of noting, got really relaxed and in touch with a number of things, most important a buzzing of anxiety in the midsection that wasn't all that serious, just there. As the sit progressed it subsided into the background. Some restlessness, clock-watching kind of stuff, but I felt pleasurably absorbed.

In daily life I'm putting on my best effort at controlling anything like bleed-through. I'm noticing how I react to situations, whether things are different or the same. I find some of my old triggers still bother me, but not as intensely, and not for all that long. It feels more like apathy than like anything else, though, so I'm not ready to congratulate myself yet.

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PostId: 39712580
Number: 123
Subject: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/24/2011 5:47:00 PM
EditDate: 7/24/2011 5:47:00 PM

I don't know if this is what it is, but I have been in a kind of depression, feeling sad most of yesterday until I was able to distract myself with an absorbing task. Then today have felt like I've been grieving.

This morning's sit: 30 minutes + a little extra, but I felt as if it went on forever. At about 20 minutes in I cheated and checked the timer; I thought I should have been done for a long time and was amazed to see I had almost 10 minutes left! Lots of torpor, mind spinning off into dreaminess, which is how I lost track of time.

Real dreams, at night, have been disturbing lately. The other night I dreamed that my violence-prone ex-husband, whom I haven't seen in over 30 years (and whom I rarely think about any more), was stalking me through an enormous, multi-level shopping mall with the intent of killing me.

It's as if all of the good vibes I felt on retreat have totally evaporated, leaving me feeling abandoned. Am trying not to make too much of this.

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PostId: 39724825
Number: 124
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: Rob_Mtl
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 10:52:00 AM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 10:52:00 AM

Metta, Laurel. If you've got the drive to sit at all in the face of depression, that's heroic, even if it doesn't feel like it.

Take or leave this- I don't know if this is relevant to your situation right now, but:

If there is a flavour of flatness and sameness to everything, maybe at this point, simply observing *that your mind-state changes* is all you should demand of yourself. No need to find out what the state is- simply to observe the bare fact that the shape of your mind-state shifts and shifts and shifts, even if you feel like it's all an empty rut. (If you are restless to end a sit, then there is something driving you forward... torpor is shifting to wanting is shifting to aversion is shifting to restlessness is shifting to etc. etc. etc.)

I find it helpful sometimes in non-meditating situations to just keep asking, every couple of seconds, &quot;Am I the same person as I was last time I checked in?&quot; No need pin down or understand the changes, but I perceive that the whole universe of views has shifted a bit, even just in the couple of seconds.

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PostId: 39724931
Number: 125
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: WSH3
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 11:01:00 AM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 11:03:00 AM

Hang in there!
I've found over the last few months that doing slow, deliberate triples during the day when having this kind of stuff come up seems to work well -
'contraction/unpleasant/despair'

I found myself smiling after awhile of naming those things, something about the objectification process...

PostId: 39724999
Number: 126
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 11:08:00 AM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 11:08:00 AM

Thanks, Rob; I do so appreciate the help. Interestingly enough, I've been kind of doing that. I've also been pining for the self I was last month, or last week, or yesterday. I'm working on finances, and as I enter an expense I incurred last month I remember doing whatever it was, and think back, and feel nostalgia.

I'm also feeling an ache in the throat, like grief. I took my son to see a local production of &quot;Godspell&quot; yesterday, which I don't particularly like, and cried through the whole thing (it was rather humiliating). I want Jesus or someone to come down from heaven and deliver me and the world from all this. But what attracts me to Buddhism is the fact that it's up to us to do this work for ourselves; we help each other, but we have to do it--and we have to make the decision to surrender.

I know my nostalgia is clinging. I've found myself feeling nostalgic for eff-ing grad school--a person has to be delusional to do that!! <!-- s;-) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;-) --> . Anyway, this morning's sit was a little more active than yesterday's, only a little torpor. Still some restlessness. Mostly I had the sound in my ears screaming like mad, and my heart thumping sounding like an enormous hammer reverberating through my eardrums. It was very quiet in the room, but noisy in my mind/body. Some thought-streams, not a lot of emotion. Much energy in observing myself needing to cough, watching it build up, then having to do it, then noticing the increase in my heart rate. No itches or aches and pains to speak of. I will continue to sit through this, and also do some metta practice when I think of it.

I connected with a person on this forum who lives nearby--she called me last night!--and found out that our sons know each other, and she has been to my house to deliver her son to my son's birthday party. Talk about synchronicity! My worlds are beginning to come together. Life is so strange.

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PostId: 39725007
Number: 127
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 11:08:00 AM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 11:08:00 AM

&quot;Hang in there!
I've found over the last few months that doing slow, deliberate triples during the day when having this kind of stuff come up seems to work well -
'contraction/unpleasant/despair'

I found myself smiling after awhile of naming those things, something about the objectification process...&quot;

Thank you--I'll try that.

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PostId: 39738491
Number: 128
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 9:59:00 PM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 9:59:00 PM

Two more 30-minute sits today. I know I should be meditating for longer periods, but I can barely manage the 30 minutes. Around noontime: can't even remember, but it didn't knock my socks off. Probably some topor, but felt relaxed when it was over. Late afternoon: I was at the local Buddhist center, no air conditioning, very hot and uncomfortable, lots of street noise. There's repainting and construction going on, so it wasn't the pleasantest environment. Noted all of it, some stiffness in my back that turned to pain, the first real itches I've had in awhile (I've missed them so much--ha!), and then dreaminess again. Felt blah afterward. I'm fighting a summer cold, with hacking cough, which isn't improving my mood any. Managed not to cough during the sitting. My noting seems to be getting a bit more on track now, though.

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PostId: 39739698
Number: 129
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: kennethfolk
CreationDate: 7/25/2011 10:49:00 PM
EditDate: 7/25/2011 10:49:00 PM

&quot;When the yogi attains to the crest of the wave in the fourth &amp;ntilde;ana, she believes that she has arrived at her destination. From here on in, she reasons, life should be a breeze. Even if she has been warned, she does not believe the warnings. She is completely unprepared for what is to come and is blindsided by the fury of the tenth &amp;ntilde;ana, which consists of the four previous &amp;ntilde;anas of fear, misery, disgust, and desire for deliverance repeating themselves in a seemingly endless loop, and worse with each iteration. In addition, the strong concentration of the fourth &amp;ntilde;ana seems to have disappeared; there is no respite from the unpleasantness and negative mind states that flood the body and mind.&quot;

&quot;Actually, the yogi is even more concentrated than before, but she is accessing unstable strata of mind that are not conducive to restful mind states or happy thoughts. The yogi obsesses about her progress, is sure that she is back-sliding, and devises all manner of strategies to &quot;get back&quot; what she has lost. The meditation teacher does his best to reassure the yogi that she is still on track, but to no avail. The best approach at this point is to come clean with the yogi, lay the map on the table, and say 'You are here. I know it isn't easy, but it does not last forever. If you continue to practice, you will see through these unpleasant phenomena, just as you have seen through every phenomenon that has presented itself so far. You are here because you are a successful yogi, not because you are a failure. Let the momentum of your practice carry you as you continue to sit and walk and apply the vipassana technique.'&quot;

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=" kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...sight+%28Part+Two%29 "> kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/p ... art+Two%29

Hang in there, Laurel. You are doing fine. Classic dukkha &amp;ntilde;anas. This is the &quot;rolling up the mat&quot; stage. It won't last. Keep paying attention to your experience.

Kenneth

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PostId: 39758121
Number: 130
Subject: RE: Desire for Deliverance
Author: JLaurelC
CreationDate: 7/26/2011 9:24:00 PM
EditDate: 7/26/2011 9:24:00 PM

Yes, that expression occurred to me, and I know what it means now! Meditated for about 30 minutes today, didn't make it to the end either. At first I got into a nice blissful jhana (no idea which one), but it wasn't stable, and pretty soon monkey mind took over, which hasn't bothered me much for quite some time. At least I was awake. There was a lot of noise outside, which might have added to the problem, but I don't think that was it.

I know I should try harder to stick with it. I will do that. Tomorrow.