Is 4th path really "enlightenment"?

"One question though: the ten fetters model says that hatred and and craving are attenuated before being broken - that's where I feel i'm at now - how does the attenuation (equivalent to once returner in the ten fetters model) match up with the technical model is there any overlap or are they one after the other?" RichardWeeden

Hi Richard,

One possible interpretation would be that 4th Path in the technical model corresponds to 2nd Path in the ten fetters model. If this is the case, the enormous, life-changing shift of perspective that happens at TM 4th Path does not go completely unnoticed in the ten fetters model, which would make sense. And the lightening of mood that many yogis report at TM 4th Path would be consistent with the reduction in craving and aversion as described in the ten fetters sakadagami (2nd Path).

I like this interpretation, Kenneth. It fits my experience too at 4th. it really feels like I am working for the anagami stage in the fetter model at the moment.

Nick

"Is 4th Path really enlightenment?

No. It's just the beginning of the end of the illusion."

I agree. It was in this context that my statement "4th path is where the path really begins." was made. So maybe best to set my statement aside as it seems to be confusing things.

The two models describe what is experienced as a result of doing two very different practices. They describe our subjective experience.

10 Fetters Model:

1) A brief experience of the unconditioned.

Unconditioned: "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas (and so on through a list of the various levels of godhood to) the allness of the All (i.e., the six sense spheres)." - sense is outside time and space - the knower of this experience, what is known, and the knowing are undivided.

Afterwards, back to the ego but it does leave you a) no longer intellectually (on reflection) believing in self-identity (I am this or that), b) there is no doubt that Buddha was on to something, c) see that simple concepts and beliefs will get you nowhere- gotta get to work.

2) A momentary experience of the unconditioned (not the same as the previous one). Relates to the nature of other. As a result you no longer relate to the world as you did before. Consider 'indras net'.

Both these experiences are brief but very powerful. They have a permanent effect but as your experience continues to be egoic, the changes are more on reflection.

(cont)

3) Permanent dropping away of egoic experience. Collapses fast. Fetters wise: sensual desire, & ill will are gone. Experientially - 'I am this or that' gone in realtime but you fall for 'I am'. A really nice experience - downside is you become really obnoxious and go around telling everyone how enlightened you are.

4) Permanent dropping away of any sense of self with reference to any phenomena -happens fast. Fetters: Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance - you ain't falling for any of those old tricks - and what that means is you don't create an identity around these things (see unbinding below). 'I am' is gone and replaced with something more like 'there is'. World of thingness - of self and other disappears.

These observations are based on my own experience. Language will vary considerably. I feel the general flavor of the experience will be similar. None were subtle.

Beyond:
"A monk who is an arahant, devoid of mental fermentations '” who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge... directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you."

The model is accurate with reference to its intended use but I don't think it represents the experience from the noting practice side of things. To me, the 10 fetters model was like a koan. Prior to a path I had a concept about it and afterwards it was like 'oh, now I get it'. I found it useful but it could use some contemporary language.

4-wire hay bale analogy:
Technical model: describes undoing the wires by twisting them really tight until they break and focuses on what happens to each wire as it is twisted.

Ten fetters model: describes what happens to the bale as each wire is loosed until it falls off.

Unbinding: just because the wires are gone doesn't mean you have a loose pile of hay. These things take time. Self identity is like the wires - they keep 'our stuff' wrapped up tight. When this is gone, our stuff isn't gone but rather starts coming apart on its own - in a sense as a result of its own internal pressure. I think the focus of the technical model tends to make what is loose and the loosening process harder to see.

Kenneth,
I can't say how these things match up exactly. I have given about the best explanation I can from my perspective on 10 fetters. I feel that the technical model you describe is closer to the ten fetters model than you are thinking - if I am understanding what you have said above. My working assumption has been that the fruitions that people describe has the quality of the given path that I describe but that's a guess. Language is confusing. Understanding others subjective experience through language is just about impossible. I imagine the model that you are using lines up with Daniels? I spent several days with him in aug. of '09 and in spite of our very different experiences along this path I felt that we had been through the same thing. This has left me baffled regarding the whole AF thing.

Leaving aside Arahats, there is this experience where there is no sense of 'I am' in reference to what is experienced and our old junk seems to fall away. Nick and Chris describe a similar experience. I relate to your direct mode practice. Maybe there is a convergence point showing up here that brings things together more.

(cont'd from above)

Your own model is yet a third interpretation, equally valid, but clearly different from my interpretation of either the ten fetters or technical 4 Path models. Your description of your relationship to emotions, though, sounds consistent with the 6th of 7 stages in my seven stage model. You and I haven't talked about the self contraction yet, so I won't presume to have an opinion about whether you have reached the 7th stage.

I will say that reading your descriptions of how your emotions had been transformed was highly inspirational for me as I worked toward the emotional transformation in my own practice last year. Thank you for that!

Hi Chuck,

A number of my students report what may be the 5th of the seven stages, but none of them have claimed the sixth; the standard for that attainment is a very difficult one to meet, as it entails the end of anger, anxiety, fear, resentment, manic joy, and all the other so-called "afflictive" emotions. Daniel does not claim the sixth stage either; I spoke to him a little over a week ago and without putting words in his mouth I believe he would say that his current experience matches the 5th of seven stages.

So, the change in self-perception that accompanies the 5th of seven stages (4th Path by the technical model) is not to be mistaken for the complete lack of self-referencing that accompanies the seventh stage.

The main reason I have for saying that the technical model diverges significantly from the ten fetters model is that by the technical model anyone who has access to nirodha samapatti or any one of the five suddhavasa jhanas is by definition an anagami (3rd Path).

"These are the five Pure Abodes (suddhavasa), which are accessible only to non-returners (anagami) and arahants." -Access to Insight

www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

But we've seen by the well-documented accounts of many yogis here that the admittedly impressive attainment of NS and the suddhavasa jhanas is still a far cry from the end of ill will. That comes at a later stage of development. And ill will (craving and aversion) is exactly what must pass away in order to be called an anagami by the ten fetters model. This is why I say that even an arahat by the technical model is not yet an anagami by the ten fetters model.

(cont'd below)

"the standard for that attainment is a very difficult one to meet, as it entails the end of anger, anxiety, fear, resentment, manic joy, and all the other so-called "afflictive" emotions. -Kenneth"

Kenneth,
Does that mean it is impossible to piss you off nowadays?

Hmmm... what if the physio-energetic transformations at each of the TM paths are necessary but not sufficient for releasing the fetters of each path in the 10F model?

In other words, the energetic change, and the shift in perceptual threshold, of TM SE makes possible but does not guarantee the complete release of the first three fetters?

I realize that SE is a sort of convergence point between the two models, so perhaps that's not the best example. However, this convergence could be because at SE the cognitive transformation (dropping 1st three fetters) and the physio-energetic transformation are simply more obviously mutually implicative.

At deeper stages, the connection between the energetic shifts and the weakening or dropping of fetters may be less obvious, so a yogi practicing according to the TM will not automatically live the implications of the energetic shifts by weakening or dropping the corresponding fetters.

Meanwhile, a yogi operating under the ten fetters model (or a synthesis, such as the 7 stages) will, by repeatedly releasing the tension corresponding to the fetters of a given path, also eventually experience the energetic shift which renders permanent release of the given fetters.

And one final note: it probably should go without saying that each of these models, and any others, are ideal types of practice. Individual yogis, ultimately, regardless of which models they are exposed to (if any), may experience things anywhere on a continuum between the extremes.

I believe the way we look at the qualities of an Arahat have been highly distorted by our conceptual projections around the terminology. Saying this, it seems I am settling for less, redefining to meet my experience. In a sense yes, but I feel that the original teachings have been distorted to accommodate our projections. The self-identity cannot imagine experience free from self-identity. If it is said that an Arahat is free from sensual desire or anger or disease then if someone enjoys a doughnut or shows signs of anger or has a cold they must not be an Arahat.

To be free of these things does not mean there are no underlying sensations. It means that there is an awareness or knowingness that always stands free of these - not bound up with them - not dependant on them. And once there is no longer a sense of self being built around these, the experience of them is profoundly transformed.

4th path for me was experienced in this way: in meditation, the sense of a door appeared. As I approached this door, there was the knowledge that in order to go through it, everything I thought of as me would have to be dropped- I agreed to this (not intellectually - the entire sequence occurred in a fraction of a second) and immediately went through the door - at which time, the door, sense of me, and the world of other that I had lived in - disappeared - not to return. The world of self and other had popped like a bubble.

Unbinding is a vague term yet I believe it is describing the post 4th path unfolding that occurs once the self contraction collapses. The Suttas say this goes on for the rest of your life but it is not something static. What I experience - regardless of label - is a continual opening up, releasing, layers of tension dropping away. Awareness becomes subtler and subtler.

"Sariputta ... said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

So we think: must be like a great cup of coffee and a croissant.

"Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

Now we think no, must be free of all feeling (whatever that means).

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye '” agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body '” agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure."

What is not felt then is sensual pleasure derived from or dependant on phenomena cognizable by the senses. 'Self' cannot comprehend this. So we drop back to 'coffee and croissant' or 'no feeling' as that is something we can relate to. When the world of self and other pops, everything changes and yet everything is still there. Awareness stands free of any 'thing' for the sense fields are essentially panoramic - free of 'thingness'. Things cannot be mentally grabbed onto in the old way as they are no longer 'grab-able'. To try is like grabbing a fist full of water. My happiness is not bound up in dependence on getting what I want or don't want but that happiness is not the kind of happiness that someone has buying a new car. It is just a sense of ease and well being. It was there even in the midst of the most irritating vibrations. Even if my body is crying out in pain - its there.

"My happiness is not bound up in dependence on getting what I want or don't want but that happiness is not the kind of happiness that someone has buying a new car. It is just a sense of ease and well being." -Chelek

This is why we meditate; to discover this ease and well being that has been here all along. What a marvelous practice this is! How fortunate we are to be alive.

"I believe the way we look at the qualities of an Arahat have been highly distorted by our conceptual projections around the terminology. Saying this, it seems I am settling for less, redefining to meet my experience. In a sense yes, but I feel that the original teachings have been distorted to accommodate our projections. The self-identity cannot imagine experience free from self-identity." -Chelek

Well spoken, sir.

""This Unbinding is pleasant."
Awareness stands free of any 'thing' for the sense fields are essentially panoramic - free of 'thingness'. Things cannot be mentally grabbed onto in the old way as they are no longer 'grab-able'. To try is like grabbing a fist full of water. My happiness is not bound up in dependence on getting what I want or don't want but that happiness is not the kind of happiness that someone has buying a new car. It is just a sense of ease and well being. It was there even in the midst of the most irritating vibrations. Even if my body is crying out in pain - its there. "

I find a commonality here, as bodily forms/sense impressions/feelings/thoughts/mental qualities arise and pass without any sense of I, me or mine, all of these appear much like universal elements employed by an impersonal universe to construct the ongoing play of so called beings. A process which commonly blinds and binds via ignorance and desire into ongoing being and becoming. Apart from even a subtle subject/object distinction and accompanying senses of possession and otherness even the distinction between within and without becomes occasionally indistinct. When mindfulness is sometimes a bit dull or sluggish it can take a moment to distinguish where a given thought or feeling originates as mental qualities, thoughts, sense impressions and feelings arise and pass both in relation to the body and apart from or outside of those relations. Without a subtle sense of appropriation all impressions arising within or without appear simply as common elements of universal and impersonal processes. Awareness then frequently appears much broader and less bound up with any particular body.