Is 4th path really "enlightenment"?

This is a question that I've seen coming up more and more in various posts and even in a recent facebook exchange, so I thought we should have a conversation dedicated to this topic.

More and more, those folks in the 4th path are discovering that there is more work to be done, new things to discover, and a lot of opportunities to question the idea that "done is what needs to be done."

Given these developments - is 4th path really enlightenment?

I like kenneths take on it: "you've completed the circuit... its now a closed loop circuit"... I also think, along the lines of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas... that there is alot more learning to do on being infinitely compassionate and radiant

I told Owen this analogy and he liked it so here it is:

4th path is kind of like finally connecting all the sewer pipes from the city all the way out into the ocean (sorry environmentalists). Now we have a direct line out to the ocean. Our pipes are all connected. We see where all the sewerage is flowing. There ain't no blockages. But there is a lot of shiit still in the pipes. Now we gotta flush the pipes and clean out all the poop. Then after sometime flushing out the pipes with a continued flow of purified water (continued investigative insight practice-i.e.purification of view), we clean out all the pipes, thus eventually no more poop, no more smell, no more stinky suffering.

I think Owen said 4th path is like awakening to the truth of the phenomena of mind and body including the sensations of an illusory "self", and further work post awakening is all about reaching full liberation. I think there is a differecne between awakening and full liberation (perhaps what arhatship really means)

I think arhat has been translated as "worthy one" but it has also been translated "killer of enemy" or "foe-destroyer" or "vanquisher of enemies". I like the last one and according to S.N. Goenka those enemies are our defilements or our ignorant tendencies to run with the illusion of "self" and become our worst own enemy. Hopefully the pali experts can correct me if I'm wrong.

www.answers.com/topic/arhat

4th path doesn't sound exactly like the "vanquisher of enemies". Sure, a lot is seen through and a lot of suffering to do with insight disease etc is dropped. But there are habitual tendencies still arising to let crappy sankharas, that cause suffering within, run the show and a tendency to act in accordance with the mirage of "self", which can lead to unskillful behavior still. I'm speaking from experience.

The View of the self as an illusory mirage is very, very clear post 4th. But as a mirage still taking shape and being still read as a provisonal self at best, it still can influence the arising of suffering in the form of emotional upheavals and negative mental reactions based on a strong residual attachment to it. If there is still a self adhered to and fed with ignorance, even a temporary one, there is still someone to suffer.

So full liberation is all about , in my current subject to change opinion, one of purifying the view gained after 4th of the illusory self by further dismantling the mirage so that there is not even a mirage that still arises to unnecessarily suffer. This seems very much in accordance with what one needs to do via seeing the 5 aggregates as not-self, impermanent and unsatisfactory completely which allows for the mind/body organism to stop creating the type of suffering which is always born from that illusory self. Am I talking out my arse? This opinion could change.

I would say 4th path (technical model) is absolutely not enlightenment in any meaningful sense--and I won't qualify that opinion in the usual way I do. I just don't think there is any reasonable doubt to be had on this one.

I like Nick's analogy of the pipes and cleaning them, though I think it might even be more profound than that; like once you've laid down the first sewage system and have cleaned it out, then you're actually ready to move on to a whole new sewage technology.

Putting this a little more simply, I think a lot of the core insights are seen at least once onwards to and up through 4th, but they are not consistently identified with or embodied. From my observational viewpoint, the consistent identification changes everything. Only people with unbroken identification with God-consciousness and who have embodied that understanding to a significant degree deserve the term enlightened.

Yours,
Mark

P.S. Doesn't Kenneth have some terminology around this--the different insights and enlightenment vs. awakening vs. realization?

Yours,
Mark

Just to add my 2c, though I am not at 4th path so can't say anything for sure. It doesn't seem like "the end", just going by what 4th pathers say. There is still suffering, albeit different. So, more to be done. However 4th path does seem a significant achievement, and definitely a good step on the way to eliminating suffering.

What there is left to be done I don't know =). Here is an interesting article to read about stages of enlightenment: awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/...s-of-experience.html . From what I understand not all stages are realized, and not in that order, for all people, and it seems the Technical Model avoids the 1st stage, for example.

Another article: awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/...and-spontaneous.html . The person who wrote that mentions how Technical Model Arahat has realized the 1st stanza "There is thinking, no thinker," but not the second stanza "In thinking, just thoughts." I think going from his comments he equates Actual Freedom w/ Stage 5, and also with the 2nd stanza. I forget what stage he put TM Arahat at.

Again, I'm not speaking from experience, just hearsay =). But at least from speaking with people I've concluded there's still much to be done after TM Arahat.

Is there really "enlightenment"?

"Only people with unbroken identification with God-consciousness and who have embodied that understanding to a significant degree deserve the term enlightened. -Mark"

Mark,

What is 'god-consciousness'?

What do you think it is?

I have no idea.. Thats why I'm asking.

Ok. Check my practice page. I posted a quote that nicely describes the process of developing towards what the Tantric Hindus would call God-consciousness.

This, for me, is one very real expression of actual enlightenment. It's why I feel, at this point, 4th path isn't in the ballpark.

Yours,
Mark

I can only speak for myself, of course. When I attained to what I call 4th Path in 2004, there was no question in my mind that I had attained enlightenment and I've never doubted it since. In fact, that is my test for 4th Path; you know you are enlightened. If an enlightenment researcher asks you to participate in his survey of enlightened folks, you will not hesitate to sign up. But that's not the same as saying there is no room for improvement.

If enlightenment were martial arts, 4th Path as I define it (4th Path by the technical four path model) would be first-degree black belt. There are higher degrees of black belt to be earned and each of them is a quantum leap beyond the first. But that in no way diminishes the significance of first degree black belt (4th Path).

For me, a lifelong pattern of crippling depression simply dried up and blew away upon attaining 4th Path. I did not doubt then and have never since doubted that the "ride" that began with my first opening (an experience that I thought of at the time as god-union) was over. I knew I was off the ride. The deepening that has come since the 4th Path moment has been of a different sort, meaning that it didn't seem related to the kind of dharmic gravity that tugged on me and tortured me up till 4th Path. The changes in the last six years have been more akin to ripening than achievement, albeit with two dramatic changes recently where immeasurably huge rafts of suffering untangled themselves and floated away.

In summary, I would say that 4th Path as I define it is enlightenment, but by no means the end of what can be discovered by those who sincerely devote themselves to contemplative practice. More, I would say by way of encouragement to anyone who would like to come to the end of suffering that your goal is a realistic one; keep practicing "as though your head were on fire," and you will not be disappointed.

edited for clarity

Beautiful!

Thanks for even more inspiration!

Kenneth--

How do you hold what you are saying here as non-contradictory with other recent statements that you've made about direct mode and the developments in that domain? You've said yourself--much to the surprise of some here clearly--that there is a whole other level of attainment available, adding two stages to your model. I believe you called this "non-linear," not a simple progression from 4th path.

After considering the point, I've come to conclusion that you are correct, even if I'm not attracted to your particular Buddhist approach to DM. But it's certainly opened my eyes to the further reaches of what is possible, and drawn me back to interest in analogous Tantric versions of that. As I mentioned to you, this was what I once believed when I started, but I then dropped it all in the messy and often disappointing process of sadhana.

Indeed, it actually all looks obvious in hindsight, which is probably makes it hard to spot. Whether I'll get "there" is another question, of course.

4th path is major tectonic shift, that much I agree. Per your own pointer, I haven't had occasion to doubt that I've passed through since I spoke with you. Spiritual states have opened further, my anxiety and sense of existential "needing to get there" have decreased intensely, and experiences pass quickly and don't stick. On the other hand, no permanent witnessing, no consistent non-dual identification, no collapse of the inner life or sense of self, and no constant immersion in the present moment. If these whole other levels are attainment are possible--and that much seems clear--we need another word for that it seems to me. If we don't, it seems one loses all that semantic clarity you've worked so hard to achieve.

Yours,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote in post # 15.

I do contradict myself with some regularity. And there is no "permanent witnessing, no consistent non-dual identification, no collapse of the inner life or sense of self, and no constant immersion in the present moment" as a result of the 4th Path attainment as I define it. Still, I believe it is reasonable to call 4th Path "enlightenment," understanding that there is more to let go of at that point. I'm OK with the idea that there are levels to enlightenment and also with the idea that there will always be ambiguity with the language in spite of my best efforts to clarify it. I am always hampered by my own limitations and by the limitations imposed by language itself.

Still, there is an end to suffering, and this is the main point I would like to make; the end of suffering in this lifetime is a realistic goal. And the technology for achieving this end is well known to us; it was bequeathed to us by the buddha, among others. This practice performs as advertised.

IAWTP above.

As I've said, it's Kenneth's site, so basically 4th path is whatever Kenneth says it is. If Kenneth changes his mind tomorrow or next week then 4th path will be something else.

In the same manner, based on my day to day needs; 1st path leads down to my car, 2nd path is a short jog over to my outhouse, 3rd path goes up to the garden and 4th path leads all the way up to my well about 400 feet up the mountain.

Going back to my role as a stick in the mud for traditional Theravada, everything that gets discussed here and at DhO as remedial post arahant touch up work is covered in the sutta discourses by the Buddha as prerequisite work for even being in the right state of mind to begin undertaking Jhana and Vipassana. So, if you subscribe to the thinking that the teachings of the Buddha scrupulously outlined in exhaustive detail in the Pali Tipitaka is a mythological load of crap, then there is no problem with becoming an Arahat while simultaneously remaining a complete douchebag. If on the other hand, you take the years of time to carefully read, comprehend and carry through on the fine print in those texts, you will find that detailed instructions on how to attain absolutely every quality that seems to be missing from the experience of some is covered in those texts in exhaustive detail.

Like I've already said, its a matter of personal choice, or as Aleister Crowley infamously remarked, "do what thou wilt is the whole of the law". Astoundingly prescient description of the most utilitarian approaches towards appropriating foreign cultures and their traditional ways and means, skillful or otherwise.

Shifting back to not a stick in the mud mode, people are surprised by this? Weren't Daniel's and Kenneth's disclaimers about various 21st century brands of enlightenment clear enough going in? I thought the analogies between vipassana and video games and so on made it fairly clear.

"IAWTP above."

?
Wiki decoded this as
IAPT - International Association for Plant Taxonomy

oh, right, forgot about google
Search Results
1.
Urban Dictionary: IAWTP
Acronym: I Agree With This Post. Normally used on bulletin board systems.

I've restated the Theravada party line in brief for the sake of any lingering historical interest. As a final note from me on this subject. These kinds of discussions have taken place before and been pursued to a limited degree. They ended variously with a great deal of acrimony, much parting of the ways, the excising of the related threads from various boards and the setting up of other boards by various parties. So if you missed out on all that fun, well, count your blessings and move on.

The Buddha said, "good friends are the whole of the holy life". Now I have taken this to mean, be nice to people, whether you agree with them or not. In addition to that, there is the very useful notion of noble silence which works even better and is the approach that I recommend for myself in hindsight as vastly preferable every time I forget about it and post something.

"These kinds of discussions have taken place before and been pursued to a limited degree. They ended variously with a great deal of acrimony, much parting of the ways, the excising of the related threads from various boards and the setting up of other boards by various parties. So if you missed out on all that fun, well, count your blessings and move on."

LOL. There will be no more acrimony from over here.

"People are surprised by this? Weren't Daniel's and Kenneth's disclaimers about various 21st century brands of enlightenment clear enough going in? I thought the analogies between vipassana and video games and so on made it fairly clear." -triplethink

Daniel is Daniel and Kenneth is Kenneth. It's all I can do to take responsibility for my own behavior, let alone Daniel's. Still, I have to admit, he's pretty cool and he did everyone a valuable service by opening up the discussion of what enlightenment means in the 21st century.

"Daniel is Daniel and Kenneth is Kenneth. It's all I can do to take responsibility for my own behavior, let alone Daniel's. Still, I have to admit, he's pretty cool and he did everyone a valuable service by opening up the discussion of what enlightenment means in the 21st century."

Which I have always thought was very cool. I have continued to happily remain on the receiving end of a lot of flack on conservative Theravada boards for defending what teachers like you and Daniel are doing and I am just as happy to continue to take flack from you guys for occasionally pointing out that early buddhism was not a bunch of mystical hoo ha and that there is immense and widely overlooked value in almost every dot and tittle of those musty old texts.

I think what gets missed with these questions, if people don't understand it immediately, is that actually Daniel, Tarin, you, probably even Richard (although I've never had any personal contact with him) are really all very kind, warm, compassionate and caring people. Compared to the average Jane or Joe you are pretty much saints and would be considered as much by most people if they took the time to get to know you better. At the same time, all saints, Buddha included are still human beings and regardless of how deeply rooted the need is in some people to put someone or something on a pedestal and worship it, we are all going to remain in many ways normal human beings with much that goes along with being a human being.

On the issue of 'what about my goal of being ecstatically happy all the time', I don't think even the AFers are saying quite this about the PCE and certainly it has never been a part of the Buddhist dogma or doctrine of any school. Is it possible to suggest a healthy, balanced and clear headed state of mind that is going to respond in the same way to every kind of phenomena? I don't think any truly wise teaching ever has suggested this is so.

...people seemed to be getting too caught up lately in semantics.
IN MY OPINION, 4th path is Full enlightenment. Everything in the manifest world is seen for what it really is, and this can be done in real time. Nothing further to examine. Everything is seen for what it is.
Is 4th path Full Liberation? certainly not necessarily. There is a purification of 'seeing everything for what it is' that is needed, and it needs to be permanent in order to attain Full Liberation (from the 10 fetters).

Now, is my opinion right? is it wrong?
who the heck cares??
It's not about the names one uses to describe these things, but the way the here and the now are experienced!