Is 4th path really "enlightenment"?

So glad to see old friends back for this discussion. Is (what is referred to on this site as) 4th path Enlightenment? Uhh... Yeah I would say it is a sign of progress along the spiritual path. To be honest I feel like the terms 4th path and arahat are confusing and the revised definitions seem to be shoehorning experiences into ancient definition. It gives us a sense of comfort to see where we are in terms of what we have read. Overall this might be a dead end. It certainly can be a dangerous game to play without a lot of spiritual (and secular) friends to keep us in check. There are few things as ass backwards as walking around thinking your hot **** because you have some attainment. Sorry. Its a phase most of us on the spiritual path have (are) going through... but its a sign of immaturity, at best early budding of insight--certainly not full enlightenment...

I am so happy to see what Chris and Jackson have written so far and hope they continue to contribute...

*This is my opinion as of 8Pm December 31st 2010--its subject to change and not directed at anyone*

IAWTP above

"So when it actually happens and we still experience annoying thoughts, irritating vibrations, tension, frustration (now the AF lurkers are thinking 'I knew it - he does experience those things!') when we were expecting bliss, infinite joy, etc...."

That fits with my experience. I'm alternately as nervous, scared, joyful, angry or serene as the next person but those objects arise without what I'd call "ownership" or the sense that they are somehow defining characteristics of an I/me/mine construction. There is a sort of superhighway they now traverse, off at a distance as opposed to "that's all I can see, that's all I am right now." There is quite clearly much more work to do and that work seems to be occurring naturally as the days go by. It doesn't have an urgency to it that it once did, but it's going, going, going, subtly but with measurable effects over the long haul.

Nice discussion. I'm reminded of the parallels between the four-path and five path models.

In the five paths, the third path is that of "seeing", as in seeing reality, emptiness, the deathless, whatever. This corresponds to stream entry; the fourth and fifth paths of meditation (cultivating what has been seen) and no-more-learning (about what has been seen, because there's no one left to learn "about" it) are everything between SE and "being done" (with that "topic" of awakening).

So what if there are endless or at least an unknown expanse of possible truths to "see"? Endless stream-entries? Endless views to glimpse in endless stream entries, endless ways of practicing and mastering what was glimpsed? Or endless ways of being practiced and mastered by what was glimpsed? Endless transformations of identity? Endless dissolutions of endless identities?

Endless versions of "suffering", for as long as we feel like we are defined by our experiences and attainments? Endless versions of play if we can let go of knowing who we are?

And this isn't to say that there isn't a validity to tightening it up too and saying, well, also it's as Chris says above: "there is quite clearly much more work to do ... but it doesn't have the urgency it once did". A real crossing of a line where the whole sense of how we engage the process of awakening, the process of seeing and learning and being done, is no longer driven by the urgency that came with making our identity out of that process--- but unfolds with increasing ease as the natural spiral of deepening letting go, deepening letting be, brightening of the clarity of the wholeness of our being conditioned and unconditioned and beyond.

Dear dharma friends,

I would urge each of you to set your personal standards high, whether you choose to think in terms of this or that map or no map at all. In fact, set the standards much higher than what seems reasonable to you at this time. In this way, you will not hold yourself back by imagining that what you see now is all there is to see.

Hold your opinions lightly. Opinions are made possible by ignoring evidence that undermines your current view, so avoiding bold assertions about what enlightenment is or isn't and how enlightened people behave will save you from embarrassment later when the countervailing evidence can no longer be ignored. (I mention this because I have learned said lesson the hard way.)

If your life has not been completely transformed by this practice, if you still experience anger, anxiety, fear, resentment, and despair, if you ever recognize for even the briefest of moments some set of phenomena as "I", you are in for a wonderful surprise: the best is yet to come.

May you be happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise in 2011.

-Kenneth

"if you still experience anger, anxiety, fear, resentment, and despair, if you ever recognize for even the briefest of moments some set of phenomena as "I", you are in for a wonderful surprise: the best is yet to come."

Maybe. Or, possibly, if you were asked if you could still locate those things, you'd say 'Yes.' And you'd wonder what the hell difference it makes to the continual, unprecedented surprise that is you living your life.

At some point, you just have to step off the pole. Or not, and admit that 'practice' has become the rote repetition of exercises-- if accuracy matters.

[Having bounced back into the fray-- quelle surprise!-- I want to make the global disclaimer that I have never posted anything that I wouldn't do well to contemplate myownself. And that includes my misteaks and erroirs. Sometimes I remember this.]

""if you still experience anger, anxiety, fear, resentment, and despair, if you ever recognize for even the briefest of moments some set of phenomena as "I", you are in for a wonderful surprise: the best is yet to come."

Maybe. Or, possibly, if you were asked if you could still locate those things, you'd say 'Yes.' And you'd wonder what the hell difference it makes to the continual, unprecedented surprise that is you living your life.

At some point, you just have to step off the pole. Or not, and admit that 'practice' has become the rote repetition of exercises-- if accuracy matters."

A third possibility would be to simply keep practicing, re-embracing the promised goal of the end of both suffering and ill will, re-dedicating this life to that end, and never giving up hope that the Buddha was telling the truth.

Not sure where to put this interesting interview with Dipa Ma who seemed to claim to have gotten to the stage of anagami (the fetter model).

www.stumbleupon.com/su/27ienW/www.tricyc...ifetime%3Fpage%3D0,0

This part on page 4 I find extremely interesting:

Question: Sense-desire comes up a lot in people's practice. Does it come up for you still?

Dipa Ma: It is important to distinguish between sense-pleasure and sense-desire. There is nothing wrong with sense-pleasure. Pleasure and pain are part of our human experience. Sense-desire, on the other hand, is the grasping at pleasure or the avoidance of pain. This is what creates suffering'”grasping and avoidance. Sense-desire comes up for everyone. It came up for me, too. When it arose, I knew it'”and that's the way to overcome it. I don't feel sense-desire anymore. Sense-desire and anger don't go away after First Path. They are weakened after Second Path and completely go away after Third Path.

Nick: She seems to be adhering to the fetter model in her descriptions of anagami. Then further she is asked about anger and frustration:

Question: Do you experience anger at all?

Dipa Ma: As soon as it comes, at the very start, I'm aware of it. It doesn't get any nourishment.

Question: What do you do when you begin to feel irritation or anger?

Dipa Ma: Anger is a fire, but I don't feel any heat. It comes and dies right out.



Nick

What a beautiful exchange, Nick. Thanks for posting it. I believe that what Dipa Ma is describing corresponds to the sixth of the 7 stages of enlightenment in the map I have recently proposed. (I've included the link below for easy reference.)

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/44...ment+%28New+Video%29

I apologize if this was covered in the videos; my computer won't really do youtube . So it sounds like stage six corresponds to anagami in the fetters model, and stage seven to arhatship in that model. Correct?
-Jake

"I apologize if this was covered in the videos; my computer won't really do youtube . So it sounds like stage six corresponds to anagami in the fetters model, and stage seven to arhatship in that model. Correct?
-Jake"

Yes, that's the conceptual framework for the model: grafting the 3rd and 4th paths of the ten fetters model onto the end of the four paths of the technical model and then placing the A&P (4th Insight Knowledge) on the front as the first stage, which gives us seven stages in all.

Of course, the ten fetters model can itself be interpreted in various ways and the word "arahat" as viewed through a ten fetters lens can raise quite a discussion. For example, the arahat is often described as a "perfected person" who has overcome all human weaknesses and may even possess magical powers, while the seventh stage described in my model refers to having completed all the previous stages in addition to having seen through self-referencing; there is no longer anything arising in the mind that is recognized as "I", so there is no experience of any kind of subject, however subtle, be it personal, impersonal, or universal. So, my definition of the 7th stage refers to the subjective experience of the practitioner (no subject) as opposed to his or her appearance to others (perfection or imperfection, however defined).

SN 44.10 Ananda Sutta: To Ananda (On Self, No Self, and Not-self) translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?"

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.

Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?"

"Ananda, if I '” being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self '” were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I '” being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self '” were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I '” being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self '” were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"

"No, lord."

"And if I '” being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self '” were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"

also from the same expert witness:

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.042.than.html

AN 4.42 Pañha Sutta: Questions translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."
First the categorical answer, then the qualified, third, the type to be counter-questioned, & fourth, the one to be set aside. Any monk who knows which is which, in line with the Dhamma, is said to be skilled in the four types of questions: hard to overcome, hard to beat, profound, hard to defeat. He knows what's worthwhile & what's not, proficient in (recognizing) both, he rejects the worthless, grasps the worthwhile. He's called one who has broken through to what's worthwhile, prudent, wise.

"This reminds me of a thought I had this morning. What if experiencing cessation for the first time (or catching a first glimpse) is what puts one on the "path" of stream entry? And, what if we're calling "4th Path" is really just the "fruit" of stream entry? This would make sense in terms of 4th path being considered "where the path really begins." This also relates to something that Nikolai was tossing around in his practice thread. He said something about having only really removed the first three fetters of the 10 Fetters Model, and that he was working on removing the other seven. Traditionally, the first three fetters are removed at stream entry. One such fetter is "personality view", which would line up with Chuck's statement about how, "4th is the end of 'I am' as anything more than a fleeting notion. It has no teeth any more." Interesting, huh?
"

I've heard someone airing the same thought. It makes sense. After all, 4th path here seems to actually eradicate the 1st fetter: "Identity view - The speculative view that a so-called self exists in the five aggregates (physical forms, feelings/sensations, perception, mental formations and consciousness) is eradicated because the Sotāpanna gains insight into the selfless nature of the aggregates." That certainly doesn't happen after Stream Entry as we have defined it here.

Not to say 4th path as defined here is any lesser of an achievement just because we start calling it "Stream Entry".

Interesting that there are still 4 paths to our 4-path model, if our 4th path is just 1st path...

"Interesting that there are still 4 paths to our 4-path model, if our 4th path is just 1st path... -Beoman"

Beoman, this doesn't make any sense to me. There is no reason to believe that 1st Path is anything other than the way we define it. As far as I know, both the technical model and the ten fetters model are referring to the same attainment when they refer to 1st Path. It's only after that point that they can be said to diverge.

You quoted (I don't know who, because you didn't attribute it): "Identity view - The speculative view that a so-called self exists in the five aggregates (physical forms, feelings/sensations, perception, mental formations and consciousness) is eradicated because the Sotāpanna gains insight into the selfless nature of the aggregates."

Then you commented: "That certainly doesn't happen after Stream Entry as we have defined it here."

Yes, it does. That is precisely what happens at stream entry as we define it here. In fact, the whole package of changes called for by the ten fetters model occurs at Stream Entry as we have always defined it here. This is the least controversial part of the model.

Yes I agree with kenneth here. When I attained stream entry I had no notion of the technical model though I was aware of the fetters model. I defined and interpreted stream entry as the breaking of the first three fettters. This manifested as
1) seeing through fixed personality view - I had a sense that no part of me was fixed and unchangeable and given time and effort could be changed
2) cutting off doubt - I had a deep and abiding sense that Enlightenment was beyond doubt true and achievable as the Buddha taught
3) end of reliance on rites and rituals - I had seen through to the essence of practice - all practices were methods pointing at this experienced truth

none of this changed as I progressed through the 4 path technical model, though lots of other things did.

I like your new model kenneth. It makes it clear where the work is to be done at each stage. Though there are obviously of different ways of doing it.

One question though: the ten fetters model says that hatred and and craving are attenuated before being broken - that's where I feel i'm at now - how does the attenuation (equivalent to once returner in the ten fetters model) match up with the technical model is there any overlap or are they one after the other?

I also appreciated kenneth's saying he was wrong on the video. Very refreshing.

Ah that quote was from Wikipedia, which quotes Thanissaro Bhikku.

I'm not being authoritative by any means, just airing ideas. Doubt seems surely eliminated, as you obtain a Fruition and see that people really weren't lying when they said it was possible. And clinging to rites and rituals is as well, since one can see that it was the insight meditation they did that made the Fruition possible.

About the identity view fetter... can you explain the difference in dropping the fetter of Identity View as described there, and the realization that occurs upon reaching TM 4th path? It seems that if you truly realize that any thought, perception, feeling, and even consciousness itself is not-self, then you are at 4th path? What am I confusing here?

Im going to have to agree with Kenneth and Richard. This is what I expericned when I got 1st path:

From here: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/An+account+of+stream+entry

Then at about 10.50, something clicks and that massive bare sensate experience of the sensations, previously known and seen as "Self", as "Nick", is seen so clearly. This simple insight felt so profound that this amazing feeling of happiness and pleasantness descended throughout the body. Nothing happens at this stage and the gong for lunch is sounded and I leave my cell to walk to the dining hall. All the while thinking of this mindblowing insight which has been staring me in the face all along. I get there at about 11.05, sitting on a bench waiting to enter the dining hall.....and then the mind turns in on itself again onto that massive bare sensate experience of all these sensations just dancing about. No "Self" anymore. Then it just appears naturally. The knowing of the Anatta/Non-self characteristic. The thoughts...."Holy crap, this is just fluff. The "Self" is just so substanceless. Just fluff!". Then the knowing of Anicca/Impermanence characteristic arises directly after it and the thought, "Wow, it's just the sum of sensations dancing about, as soon as they arise they stop dead." When I think back to this moment, it felt like the actual written words appeared in the mind. With these two characteristics known fully, immediately the Dukkha/Unsatisfactoriness characteristic just made complete sense!!!!!! And then...

Continued from above:

I felt my head being pulled up slightly at the crown of the head and I felt like something "big" was about to happen. There was a mental reaction of anticipation and I managed to start noting it, but as it all happened so fast I only managed to note it with the word "noted"......and I felt sucked up into something unknown and spat out....... and with my eyes closed it looked like the sun was right in front of my eyes. I opened them and just thought..."What the hell! What was that....?". I really just felt massively stunned for several moments. And then started asking myself "Was that it?"

This really did eradicate the first 3 fetters for me, no doubt!

I won't yet disagree, but to play the devil's advocate here... why, after all that realizing that everything is just fluff and no-self etc. (which I don't doubt happens - very nice descriptions by the way!) is there still identification with self up until TM 4th path? Like Daniel Ingram said in MCTB, paraphrasing: "Stream Enterers often have a very hard time describing what exactly is different about their day-to-day experience." Then I hear how 3rd path is about (paraphrasing, again) "seeing the luminosity, emptiness, selflessness of phenomena in real-time." This implies that those are not seen in real-time before then.

I guess another way to phrase my question is: how do you define the realization that makes someone 4th path as something other than the dropping of identity view?

I didn't expect my little excerpt to get so much attention.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that I support the idea that I proposed in the quoted section in post #63. I was simply pointing out that there are quite a number of ways to interpret any given insight map. The maps are not inscribed on stone tablets, as we all know.

All of the mile markers we use to chart the path are ultimately arbitrary. But that's not to say they are meaningless or absurd. The fact that "the map is not the territory" is not going to stop a travelor from taking it along for their journey. If it's a good map, they are more sure to reach their destination.

Sometimes it's difficult to know whether or not a map is "good". But I guess that's why we are having these discussions - to flesh it all out. In so many words, that's what I was trying to say. I don't know if it was understood as intended.

-Jackson

Is 4th Path really enlightenment?

No. It's just the beginning of the end of the illusion.

In my experience at 1st path, self was seen to be "fluff" and substanceless and just a pattern of phenomena being read wrong. Post 1st path, there was this truth always staring me in the face if I inclined the mind to see it. But I only got glimpses of it now and then. I had to turn my attention towards it to see it.. From 1st path to 3rd path, the clinging element and the warping effect still had teeth so to speak. Sure, i saw it as impermanent and not concrete but the mirage was still in place due to strong habitual patterns to read it as something concrete and with that weird warping of perception. At 4th that warping is seen through and untangled. It's hard to describe exactly what happens. But from just pre-4th to 4th, there was a sense of centrepoint of self which held it's ground and seemed to hold some sort of hallowed status in the mind. That was seen through at 4th when all the phenomena which supported that warped illusory sense of self was seen to just be arising and passing away phenomena as clear as day permanently.

Daniel Ingram once described it so:

"It would be as if the quality of sensation patterns that occur when the eyes look at something were considered special, or the pattern of qualities of sensations that occur when the sensations of the skull arise were considered special, or the patterns of sensations and qualities that occur when intention arises were considered special, with these considerations of specialness arising due to the final lack of clarity about the true nature of these ordinary sensations, which are just sensations in the end, as all the rest was and is. The same insights that got you as far as you have gotten just need to filter through everything that seems to be centerpoint, doer, perceiver, Subject, observer, feeler, actor, knower, achiever, etc. These patterns can be slippery, cut close to things that there can be resistance to examining closely, and difficult to see, as they seem so close to home. See them anyway.

There is an untangling of some eddy in attention that caused that identification, and this is hard to explain. It is as if some last, subtle aspect of subject-object spacial distortion was seen through or righted itself, either way you look at it, suddenly naturally just this and without a reference point." Daniel Ingram bit.ly/eFKWFQ

Stream entry is like an introduction to this but the mind and the illusion remains sticky. 4th path is like seeing it all in realtime all the time without any stickiness. However, a mirage can still remain. And if you are thirsty and you see a mirage of a pool of water and you know it's a mirage, there may still be habitual patterns and tendencies to react to that mirage as if it were real. That is how I see it at the moment. Could change.

Just go get 4th path and you'll have your answer.

Hehe not to worry, I'll get 4th and see for myself.

This is all just words, and not too productive ones (read: beneficial to getting a particular attainment). All I was getting at is that there are two interpretations... one is that dropping the fetter of identity view is as you said, getting first Fruition, getting insight into no-self, but still having a stickiness to get rid of. The other is that getting rid of the stickiness is what is actually dropping the fetter of identity view.

This doesn't change much to get TM 4th path, so I'll stop pursuing this topic until I am there as talking about this won't help me get it.