Mahasi and Chah

"Thank you triplethink and CheleK for this precious thread!

I have a question: is there any connection between the expansive practices (see CheleK's explanation in this thread kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/44...%28PCE+Related%3F%29 ) and (one of) the first two formless jhana?

I'm kind of stuck with this question and I think this is the right place to ask!
"

Hi Geppo,
Here is one overview of jhana from a Thai Forest Tradition:
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/than...ro/jhananumbers.html
The term 'expansive practices' that I used just means an open sort of jhana combined with insight based in the body. Internal Chi Gong - as I learned it - is just a variation on the same theme. There are other approaches as well. Nathan may have some thoughts on this. These practices open up into all the jhanas including the formless ones.

So for someone trained in the mahasi noting traditon (in order to get SE), I have found that the short blips are all I can experience of the unconditoned, even though i've tried to lengthen them via resolutions and beefing up concentration. The same for NS. Chuck or Nathan, do you guys have any set up or advice to perhaps experience the unconditioned as you do? And was it an experience , and not a cessation of the senses? ....it's blowing my mind thinking about it and I am extremely curious as to how to go about it your way(Thai forest/chah way) as I think it would bring a lot more insight than the short blips I usually get.



Nick

P.S. Awesome thread!!!!

CHELEK: The Chah training, directs attention away from perceivable phenomena by inclining toward subtler and subtler levels of phenomena, eventually reaching a point where they catch a complete lower phase. What is experienced is the trailing edge of an upper phase (being sucked in), the lower phase (the unconditioned), and the rising edge of the next upper phase (spat out). END

Is there some more detailed instructions for this, Chuck?


CHELEK: Chah jhana (in truth I have no idea if he taught jhana but this is common in Thai Forest tradition) does not solidify around certain phenomena but rather chooses a very diffuse or open quality to rest attention on in order to gain stability and then inclines to subtler and subtler jhanic states - allowing the denser one to drop away on its own. The insight aspect is simply to note the tension involved in holding any particular level which aids in allowing it to drop away. In this way insight and jhana form one integrated practice.END

And how can one best go about practicing within jhana like this. Any links or advice apart from the instruction above?



Nick

Interesting bit of ideas. Just to clarify something stated earlier about Bernadette's model. Chuck, you compare her entrance to the Unitive life as third path, and I really understood her differently, as simply when the inner circle vanishes and is never to return, or as stream entry.

I say this because of having seen Bernadette's dvd, and I spent a weekend with her, and she was very clear about the entrance to the Unitive life as when the center falls out, (she used a cardboard cut-out of a circle to show this idea) and in my questions with her I understood that to be Stream Entry in comparison for Theravada, which I am familiar with.

4th Path (as I understood her to mean) was when the whole circle vanishes completely.
I feel that stream entry possibly happened for her at age 17 when she went into the monastery. I also sensed that she was at 3rd path when she left the monastery and sometime after ten years she hit 4th path, then ten years later, the resurrection.

I asked her about her practice and asked her about noting the three characteristics in practice and she said: "Why would anyone want to do that!" Her practice (from what I understood) was around the eucharist primarily, taking it regularly, being open, the whole process, being with the church, the body of the church...her practice was more like what you seem to be saying about Chah.

Perhaps it might be better to leave her out of the discussion, but I wanted to clarify that piece.

Good to hear the discussion unfolding here--

"I have found that the short blips are all I can experience of the unconditoned, even though i've tried to lengthen them via resolutions and beefing up concentration. "

Hi Nick,
Got to switch tool sets. Stop looking in the moment for some powerful thing or event. Relax. Just see if there is a sense of ease at the periphery. I described it in my journal as the sense of standing next to a serene lake with by back to it. I could sense it but not see it. Kind of like trying to see a faint star - if you look right at it, it will disappear where as if you look off to the side you can notice it. As it deepens there is a growing sense of ease - but that is not something to attain to but rather as you let go of the tension it just deepens accordingly.

As I said before, I only experienced each path once. I believe Nathan may have been able to call them up.

The best directions I have seen - with regard to my own practice - are those of Thanissaro Bhikkhu over at dharmatalks.org

Search for titles with the word breath, energy, body, jhana, etc. None of them are very long - maybe 15 minutes - and generally start out at a basic level and get into more advanced levels.

With these, something to watch for may be the tendency to start noting or intensely concentrating - think along the lines of direct mode and puppy metta. Remember to just relax into the experience rather trying to pull into it. If you find yourself starting to try to concentrate and pull yourself into it then see if you can see that as a field of energy and just kind of relax into it. Play with the stuff. Be curious. Think of yourself as a chunk of spongy meat in a bowl meat tenderizer and enjoy the bath.

Excellent! I'll take all this advice onboard. Thanks Chuck!



Nick

"Another new essay on Jhana with some key comparisons of contemporary orthodox Theravada thinking on Jhana.

dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf
"

I can't figure out which essay the link points to with the ellipsis in the middle.

"I asked her about her practice and asked her about noting the three characteristics in practice and she said: "Why would anyone want to do that!" ...her practice was more like what you seem to be saying about Chah.

Perhaps it might be better to leave her out of the discussion, but I wanted to clarify that piece.
"

Hi Constance,
I agree with you that Bernadette went through a Chah style awakening and I know that you have some noting practice experience So let's first talk about your own practice and how you experienced the first three paths.

-Chuck

OK. Considering the invitation...this is very complex btw, and a long story even though short lived in a way....
More specific questions seem to call forth the typing of a response at this point, though --seems too large to mention much.
with metta, Constance

"I can't figure out which essay the link points to with the ellipsis in the middle."

Thanks for pointing that out. I copied a link from elsewhere.
Fixed it in the previous post, here it is again:
dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/upl...ers-dhyana.-piya.pdf

"So for someone trained in the mahasi noting traditon (in order to get SE), I have found that the short blips are all I can experience of the unconditoned, even though i've tried to lengthen them via resolutions and beefing up concentration. The same for NS.

1. do you guys have any set up or advice to perhaps experience the unconditioned as you do?

2. And was it an experience , and not a cessation of the senses?
-Nick
"

Ok, well, this is going to sound a little strange, but this just happened to me, the first time, entirely unexpectedly, around age 14 and very rapidly within a day or two of trying to meditate, with no instructions except what I found in a tiny little booklet which said to relax, breathe and explore within.

So, everything that has developed since has been on the basis of that and subsequent experiences which, when I eventually found out about Theravada, seemed to line up almost to the letter with what was in the suttas and so on. So it seemed like the natural thing to just turn to those instructions and continue from there as everything leading up to that fit so well and it made sense to see if the rest of the Theravada stuff would also be replicable in my own experience, which it largely has.

So this is why I am the odd man out in most discussions because unlike most people, who report that experience reportedly does not accord very well with the teachings in the Theravada suttas, etc., mine does, and with a great deal of fidelity. So that is where I go to find more info on how to finesse it. I admit, it is not easy to decode some of that lingo and so I turn to serious Pali text geeks for help with details. Very, very competent Pali text geeks are exceedingly rare while very mouthy, nasty and exceedingly annoying and dogmatic Pali text geeks with way too many opinions and way too little real expertise are abundant and prolific. So all you can do is put on some semantic kevlar and wade into it.

Anyways, I'll try to give you some cliff notes.
1. It helps a lot to get a bit further into the mentality of the Buddha as he is presented in the Pali sutta discourses which are presented as a recounting of his actual teachings, back in the day, allegedly word for word. Nibbana, as he intended it is something real, and to be realized. Interestingly, as is noted in this essay,
www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh011-p.html
the third Noble Truth, the truth of cessation, is to be realized. Unlike the first two truths which are to be understood (by means of insight) and the last truth which is to be practiced (by means of the eightfold path) the third truth, cessation is to be realized but as anyone who has actually done so will likewise express, it is impossible to 'understand' cessation. It cannot be described, cannot be classified, cannot be elucidated, and as Daniel said about the N.S., it is the granddaddy of meditative attainments.

So, what to do, practically speaking. The cessation of feeling and perception occurs when all conditioned phenomena comes to a complete halt, ceases to arise. So that should be indicative of what direction to head in practice. It is all about letting go of conditions, however it is that you want to go about it. It is not, naturally anything like any kind of jhana lite. It is jhana hard and harder, if you want to use these unfortunate terms. I prefer to look at it as letting go, letting go some more, and then letting go of whats left when there is next to nothing left to let go of.

I would recommend taking the best of whatever it is that you have got to work with in the jhana area and continuing on from there. Do whatever it is that you do now with jhana, then just continue letting go of qualities. Best to follow along with the old school approach and in the order given, let go the sense impressions, let go the coarser mental qualities, let go the bliss, the rapture, the awareness of form.

There are some characteristics that qualify jhana variously in Theravada terms so look for these, the absence of the hindrances, applied and sustained attention, single pointedness of attention, and then it gets progressively more subtle as qualities drop off, from coarse to subtle. That is how this happens, I haven't heard of it happening any other way from anyone anywhere, apart from it happening this way I only hear about it not happening. So, from everything we know about cessation of feeling and perception, that is how it is, and it is not otherwise.

2. Well, it is not an experience, here's why. First off, in this approach and by this accounting of what is happening to the practitioner, the sense impressions end after first jhana. In this approach, while there is some limited noise or vibration in the background with first jhana, for it to be classed as 1st Jhana in this manner, there has to be a complete suppression of the hindrances, applied and sustained attention, single pointedness of attention on singleness of perception of form, rapture and bliss. At second jhana, the singleminded attention to form is effortless and rapture and bliss are strong with no interference at all from diverse extraneous sense impressions whatsoever. At third jhana the bodily quality of rapture is let go of, at fourth the mental quality of bliss is let go of and equanimity of singleminded effortless attention to singleness of perception of form is steady and peaceful. At 5th jhana the perception of form drops off and one is left with what I consider to be a perception of unbounded space filled with the unbounded consciousness that pervades that space. At 6th the spacial quality is let go of, at 7th the unbounded quality of consciousness is let go of and so the impression one has of consciousness at that point is very much equatable to nothingness or emptiness sans all else. So, up to this point, vipassana is very much still doable
cont->

in the context of this kind of jhana, it is just that the phenomena is so basic and simple that it doesn't require any more reflection or analysis than something like noting the difference between a traffic light changing color while you stare at it. No analysis is necessary as it is entirely obvious what is being perceived. At 7th jhana, referred to as the sphere of nothingness, there is no longer any analysis possible as consciousness has become qualitatively too simple for any sort of reflexive functioning. Same thing with 8th or neither perception or non-perception where even the nothingness or emptiness quality is let go of. At 8th, consciousness is down to it's last faint trace of a quality, it is present and that is all, it cannot reflect on it's presence or that it is aware of nothing or anything at all, it exists, by a hair and that is it. Let go of that last shred of a quality of consciousness and presto cessation of feeling and perception. Why? Because you have let go of consciousness. The body is still there, warm, apparently appearing nearly lifeless, pulse minimal, breath extremely shallow if not halted, entirely devoid of consciousness and next to nothing for neurological activity. Paramedics would be freaking out. So, lock the door to your garden shed or wherever you are or else grandma is going to be pissed when you come back to earth.

So, how to define what the cessation of feeling and perception is like? Can't be done. I've tried and there are one of two responses to trying to do it. People who know that it can't be defined will say, that's not it and people who don't know what it is will be misled into thinking it can be defined.

It can be said that it can be realized. It can be, something akin to experienced which I have variously written out as nibbana knows nibbana or whatever but there is nothing left of your consciousness so it would be entirely false to classify it as experience.

Nibbana, cessation, the unborn, the deathless, supreme bliss, ultimate peace. There are a host of negative and positive descriptors but they are merely indications and fall short of a reality, an unconditioned reality, that is impossible to accurately describe in what is only ever conditional and relative terminology. So the Pali texts have a bunch of obtuse and purely philosophical terms and modifiers that it relies upon but none of those terms have anything even remotely equivalent in english so we are even more screwed trying to talk about it in english.

On the positive side, this reality, this dhamma, this unconditioned, non arising, non passing, non self phenomena, is supremely blissful, is constant, is stable, is a sanctuary and is the ultimate objective, the only objective deemed of any worth by the Buddha and the Sangha of the Buddhadhamma of the teachings in the Pali Tipitaka. This is the freedom they sought, this is the goal, this is the end, this is the only sanctuary from ongoing being and becoming for which they abandoned family and status and the world and for which they lived the holy life. Apart from this there is conditions and suffering and this is by the book, teachings of the elders, old school classical Theravada doctrine, or dogma if you prefer.

Okey dokey?

upekkha
nathan

Moving along then. What? There's more, yes kids, we're just getting warmed up. So then, whether you get to cessation in the blip out and then bliss out manner typical of getting through the full course of insight nanas or you do it the letting go of all conditions deep deep jhana method, once you get it done you can move on to 'supramundane jhana', whoo hoo!

The Buddha never once mentioned supramundane jhana in the sutta discourses. He mentioned jhana in two senses as a term implying meditation in general, either old school samadhi and tranquility jhana as I've covered in brief already or else as samadhi together with vipassana. Typically, the Buddha would go into the samadhi and tranquility stuff covering the eight jhana in this manner together with cessation and/or he would go into vipassana in the context of the five aggregate classes of phenomena body/senses/feelings/thought objects/mental qualities of consciousness or vipassana in the context of the breath or the body as with satipatthana practices. There is a lot of other stuff he spoke about as well but for all of that see the six tons of texts in full for yourself.

The supermundane jhana notion was introduced with the Abhidhamma texts so whether this was a notion of the Buddha all hangs on your opinion of the Abhidhamma texts. Setting that ongoing geek debate to the side supermundane jhana kicks in after the cessation occurs, one way or another, for the first time. There is not much detail on just what it is that it is.

Here is my pet theory for what its worth, (btw, I would advise not betting anything on it). I figure what probably happens after the undeniable revelation that is cessation depends first of all on how that cessation is apprehended by a meditator. If it is in blip out form then it is a pretty mild realization, as these things go. You know you blipped out and that apparently, from what people have written and said about it has an impact.

What kind of impact apparently depends on how much insight work is left to be done. So typically it seems, in the blip out via vipassana route, usually the work has to continue sequentially with a 2nd progression through the insight nanas, a 3rd and then the 4rth. Each time the meditator works through the full range of insight nanas they wear off a bit more of as Kenneth puts it, their imbeddedness in conditions, or as elsewhere put the identification with the body, sense impressions, affective feelings, thought objects, mental qualities and consciousness. So somewhere along the line, at the end of the 4th path or somewhere after the 4th path or once you are actually free or have found your juju or met with the great hindu masters or whatever, eventually there is no imbeddedness in the conditions, no identification with conditions and no hard feelings my beloved brothers and sisters. (geez, it's getting late here...)

Anyhoo, going the power jhana approach of ditching the whole works at once, which is relatively rare, seems to be a generally mostly a question of being some kind of a psycho-physical freak of some kind, or fanatically devoted to tranquility practice which implies having way to much time on your hands or just a matter of dumb luck or good karma/kamma. Hard to say really. Anyways, taking that route, is kind of the fast lane in some ways because the whole complex body/senses/feelings/thoughts/mental qualities, the whole works gets dumped lock stock and 3 characterstics, progressively true, but completely. So what happens is that the cessation of feeling and perception is not a momentary blip out, it actually leaves the impression that time no longer exists, space no longer exists, I no longer exist, but hey, this is definitely way better! Holy crap, and it is usually with something like that notion attempting to arise, somewhere in the remote distance somewhere, "whaaaaaaaaa t the f is this?!!!!" That consciousness resumes.

In the traditional Theravada view, getting to the cessation of feeling and perception in this way puts you automatically at the completion of either 3rd or 4th path. I dunno, I do know that you will never look at your ugly mug in the mirror the same way again. So, that is what happened to me, as a kid, a well behaved bookish son of a Baptist pastor's kid, and after that I started having problems with figuring out how Jesus was gonna save my non-existent soul. But that's another story.

I was going to spin my take on supermundane Jhana. Basically it's this, after the blip out or the completely gone out happens the qualities that serve as the basis for jhanas 1 to 8 and more particularly the real quality that is nibbana or cessation linger to one degree or another in the background of moment to moment and day to day experience, in one way or another modifying and coloring that experience in ways which people who have never in their lives experienced the unsurpassable joy of not existing will never understand and which we all like to discuss as huge, middlin and tiny changes in the ways that we perceive stuff. So supermundane jhana could be mental qualities typical of the 8 jhana and the unconditional dhamma together with vipassana practice or it could be the 8 jhana and the unconditional dhamma quality together with an Egg McMuffin, just depends what's going on.

Nathan, this is very helpful. My own experience was very similar. I was just practising my Chi Gong - no knowledge of Buddhism, etc. After about 6 weeks, the experience that I described earlier happened. Afterwards, the first thing I noticed was that it seemed I wasn't breathing and my heart was beating at maybe 30 beats/min. (seemed that way - who knows) anyway, I spread myself out on the floor for a long time wondering 'What the h**l was that'. This happened at the age of 40 but throughout my adult life prior to that my mind would drift into deep states of nothingness on its own. So, karmic or biological or whatever, it would seem I was sort of pre-inclined toward this kind of experience if conditions came together.

"the qualities that serve as the basis for jhanas 1 to 8 and more particularly the real quality that is nibbana or cessation linger to one degree or another in the background of moment to moment and day to day experience, in one way or another modifying and coloring that experience in ways which people who have never in their lives experienced the unsurpassable joy of not existing will never understand"

Yes, that's it. This becomes available as an aspect of on going experience. There is a sense of relief present - a sense of peace and beauty - kind of spin-off qualities that are seen.

And you can become attached to that. This is what Richard has focused on. But people prior to stream entry have no access to it at all and those coming from the Mahasi style of practice may not notice it. The quality of cessation cannot be perceived by seeing it in this world and trying to latch onto it. To do so is to turn the Buddhas teaching on its head and suggest that by clinging intensely to pleasant sense phenomena and by practicing strong aversion to anything that is unpleasant you will reach a state of permanent happiness. Leads to something, I'm sure but god knows what.

Apologies if this posting is somewhat off-topic... I stumbled across an interesting talk by Ajahn Jayasaro on the Ajahn Chah web site on attainments from the perspective of the Thai Forest tradition: www.ajahnchah.org/video/video43.php

"@Dadriance: Apologies if this posting is somewhat off-topic... I stumbled across an interesting talk by Ajahn Jayasaro on the Ajahn Chah web site on attainments from the perspective of the Thai Forest tradition: www.ajahnchah.org/video/video43.php "

Great link, Dadriance! A monk from the Thai Forest Tradition talks about arahatship, the pros and cons of claiming it, and the difficulties of determining whether someone has it by observing their "demeanor and comportment." Also, the informal system of peer validation used in that particular Buddhist culture.

Great video, thanks. To speak or not to speak. There are so many aspects of this issue.

If one is a sincere Theravada monk or informed lay follower of the tradition then it is understood that in practice the life of a bhikkhu is governed by both a devotion to the entire Buddhadhamma and strict adherence to the Vinaya or the discipline prescribed by the Buddha. Vinaya doesn't typically receive the same kind of attention from lay followers that sutta discourses do however it is an equally valuable study in that it provides considerable insights regarding what sincere traditional Theravada adherents understand to be the difference between mushroom thinking and practice vs. genuine discipline and practice as the Buddha originally intended.

On the subject of public speech about experiences of 'enlightenment', it is as noted by Ajahn Jayasaro. In conservative Theravada circles such disclosures are frowned upon and typically give rise to doubt whereas among those who are drawn to and inspired by such disclosures there is often great faith in such individuals.

There is some irony in the facts that the Buddha's entire life after his awakening was based on the widespread dissemination of extensive disclosures regarding his own realizations and understanding while at the same time he forbade his bhikkhus from speaking openly of any success in replicating his work to any extent.

To speak openly of the same or similar realizations and understandings then automatically places one outside of the strictest Theravada context. In real world terms there is little such strict traditional Theravada apart from the few individuals and communities which continue to adhere strictly to the dhamma/vinaya People in 'Theravada countries' are as pluralistic and diverse in their doctrines and practices as people can be anywhere else and the expectations of complete conformity in any sense is largely an artifact of western misapprehensions of an imagined conformity in the older and more traditionally buddhist cultures.

As open disclosures and discussions of meditative practices, processes and experience and of insights, realizations and understandings is entirely possible outside of any prohibitive restrictions such as adopting the vows and the discipline of a Theravada Bhikkhu, I've always been supportive of such open discussions and amused by any resistance to open discussions; a resistance that seems to have often been transplanted wholesale, with little reflection, from the regions which have maintained Theravada cultures over the past thousand or so years. Western cultures aren't typically predisposed to such a lack of transparency unless it is some kind of an all encompassing taboo subject such as the globalized institutionalization of all social structures in the service of privatizing all profits and wealth while simultaneously socializing all losses and costs. But I digress, what I wanted to add is, while I fully support open sharing of techniques, methods, insights, realizations, understandings, et al, I have no interest in modeling any of it. I'm not the most studious or accomplished student of the Tipitaka but it is quite clear to me that the Buddha never taught a model of anything and I strongly suspect he would likely have found the suggestion that the natures of the universe or of the inner life of human beings could be modeled laughable.

That said, go ahead, model away, fill your boots, enjoy, just don't be surprised if whatever model you build, life spills out of it all over the place in completely unmodel-able (yikes, that is a hideous concatenation) ways. The person portrayed in the Tipitaka had an absolutely astounding depth and range of realizations and insights, demonstrated remarkable capacities and presented incredibly deep understandings. Some are only interested in following in those footsteps and that is a narrow path and pretty damn tight lipped. Some are inclined to wander on their own, even off of the path less taken.

"

That said, go ahead, model away, fill your boots, enjoy, just don't be surprised if whatever model you build, life spills out of it all over the place in completely unmodel-able (yikes, that is a hideous concatenation) ways. The person portrayed in the Tipitaka had an absolutely astounding depth and range of realizations and insights, demonstrated remarkable capacities and presented incredibly deep understandings. Some are only interested in following in those footsteps and that is a narrow path and pretty damn tight lipped. Some are inclined to wander on their own, even off of the path less taken."

Wow Nathan, this is a powerful and provocative statement! I find it really refreshing too though--- I have to admit, my tendency to want to model experiences-- mundane or spiritual-- seems to be the very opposite of what I understand by liberation in the here and now. Whatever freedom and ease I taste seems to arise in the wake of dropping the whole structure of represented past experience-- models-- and the whole attitude of trying to predict-and-control experience which comes along with carrying those structures around.

It seems like from an evolutionary and from a childhood development perspective these structures and the attitude that goes with them have merit, but there comes a time when one wants to simply abide in the here and now completely free of the known, the expected.