Mahasi and Chah

"Hi triplethink,

Could you please elaborate on those mythical aspects of Theravada? I am most curious.

Sincerely,
Nick"

Sure Nikolai. Probably the most obvious example would be my ongoing experience of other kinds of beings. Beings which I find to be very much like the devas, brahmas, ghosts and titans described by the Buddha and Sangha in various suttas. I used the term mythical because that is generally how those accounts are viewed by people today. While I have tried to discuss the subject in various forums, all that has ever resulted is debate about whether the sutta accounts are mythical or not or whether I am sane or not. As neither type of discussion is useful, I have abandoned discussing these subjects unless someone is interested in treating it more seriously in a private discussion one on one. Chuck, for instance, has been quite open minded and helpful in this area. Another aspect would be the iddhis or siddhis, a subject where I am even more reluctant to go into detail publicly. People are sometimes quite interested but as often way off course in terms how they hope to apply any related practical information and so on.

Thanks triplethink,

Im interested. i sent you a PM.



Nick

Great discussion, Chuck. Interesting analysis, clearly articulated. Well supported with quotes as well as references to your own experience. Thanks for posting it on this forum; I hope it's the beginning of a series...

Kenneth

"About time:
My experience of the paths unfolded over 14 years. I believe Daniel and Kenneth's are somewhere in that range. Bernadette Roberts - I think about 25 years, Adyashanti - I think about 15 or so. -Chelek"

Point of clarification referring to the quote above: 22 years elapsed between my first opening/A&P event in1982 and what I call 4th Path, which happened in 2004. More recently, in 2010, came another major shift, easily as significant as anything that came before. So, 28 years and counting...

Nathan, glad to have you here. Thanks Kenneth and yea, 'and counting', true enough.

On Beyond Fourth:

But first a look at pre actual freedom:
In the dialog between Richard and Ajahn Chah, I have already included Richards views on what enlightenment is all about. As he says that he was fully enlightened then I can assume that the views he holds represent or are supported by his experience during that period (1981-1992). As a useful excercise, readers can reflect not only on whether Ajahn Chah holds that view but also ask yourself: Is this what Kenneth or Daniel think enlightenment is? If not, then it may be that Richard made a mistake.

On the home page of Richards site he makes a statement with the heading "Step out of the '˜real' world into the actual world ... and leave your '˜self' behind" - I agree with him - except that I would add that this truth has been available to anyone willing to make the effort for a couple thousand years at least. There is a certain irony to this because in truth, he has become one of the awakened beings that he so maligns on his site - completely unaware of this - blinded by his own misconceptions (mushrooms) about what awakening is all about. Now he will see if he is any more successful in conveying his 'truth' than his predecessors were - or if people just end up creating yet another religion or cult around him.

Richard (from A Brief Personal History): "In September 1981 I underwent a monumental transformation into an Altered State Of Consciousness which can only be described as Spiritual Enlightenment. I became Enlightened as the result of an earnest and intense process which commenced in the January of that year. At approximately six o'clock on the morning of Sunday the sixth of September 1981, my '˜ego' disappeared entirely in an edifying moment of awakening to an '˜Absolute Reality'. I lived in the Enlightened State for eleven years, so I have an intimate understanding of the marked difference between Spiritual Enlightenment and actual freedom."

In November of 2002 I went through an experience where my ego collapsed like a house of cards. I wrote that day: "This afternoon 'reality' just collapsed - there was nothing to stand on - like a house of cards - Everything stripped away until there was just the sense of 'isness' grasping a dream universe that creates a sense of 'I am'." This marked a permanent shift. It opens up into an amazing experience and when compared to the confines of our egoic self - there is no comparison. It is what Bernadette Roberts calls the 'No Ego Experience' and it marks the entry into what she calls 'The Unitive Experience' and in my tradition, 3rd path. Richard, describing it: "I found much that was murky and dirty lurking around in the outer darkness. Whereas '˜Me', at the centre of '˜Being', was dazzling" - This is why Bernadette calls it unitive - there is an I AM at the center - it gets turned into 'I am one with God', 'I am this emptiness', and no doubt 'I am actually free' (choose your tradition).

Richard describes an experience (actually several experiences) in 1985: "I was able to experience what lay beyond Enlightenment several times ... the first of these experiences occurred at maybe three in the morning (I had no watch) and was accompanied by a sense of dread the likes of which I had never experienced even in a war-zone '“ .... This dread contained the existential angst of discovering that '˜I' was nothing but a contingent '˜being' and that '˜I' would cease to '˜be'. ..This was more than death of the ego, which is a major event by any definition; this was total annihilation. No ego, no soul '“ no self, no Self '“ no more Heavenly Rapture, Love Agapé, Divine Bliss and so on. Only oblivion. It was not at all attractive, not at all alluring, not at all desirable .."

In the Visudhimagga this is called 'The Terror' - it occurs as 3rd path matures. It is very unnerving. It is like a phasing in and out of existence - yet you (the body anyway) does not cease functioning. This started happening to me in 2006. As an example, I was driving my car when all of a sudden 'I' simply disappeared without a trace. Nothing left at all - just a centerless seeing of a body driving a car, looking in different directions, breaking for a pedestrian, yet 'I' was entirely absent from the experience. Frightening because I wondered if 'I' was going to ever reappear. I couldn't even form a thought - there was absolutely nothing to grab on to. For me they would only last 10 or 20 minutes at first. Overtime I got used to it but at first it was really scary.

Richard: "at midday on Friday the thirtieth of October 1992 a curious event occurred, ... Just like my ego had dissolved, back in 1981, my '˜soul' disappeared. I was no longer a '˜Self' existing for all Eternity and transcending Time and Space. I no longer had a feeling of being '“ or '˜Being' '“ and I could no longer detect the presence of The Absolute....The ego is only half of one's identity; the other half is the soul. When the ego dies, one has dispelled an illusion '“ the illusion of a personal self '“ only to wind up living in a delusion '“ the delusion of an impersonal Self."

Bernadette doesn't use the term soul to describe this but rather the term self and calls this the 'Not Self Experience'. I call it 4th path. At the time I described it as like going through a door "On one side there was a me in a big world. 'I' needed to do something - to achieve something. 'I' encountered the door, passed through it, and the door, me, and the big world of things disappeared. I cannot - as far as I can tell - re-create them even if I wanted to." A few days later I wrote "...all phenomena are simply an aspect of a radiant whole. It is completely impossible for me to pick out objects as I had before ...I can focus on a tree but it is a contrived act to separate it out. There is a background radiant quality everywhere. There is incredible peace and happiness. The happiness is just there - it seems odd as there is no reason for it at all - it's just there."

Next - those irritating vibrations.
"Life is a picnic, if you can accept the ants" ~ odd bodkins (from memory, I'm at least close)

comments welcome, this will take a while

Hi Chuck, I'm curious about The Terror. Specifically, how do you think The Terror compares and contrasts with the Fear nyana? Your description of phasing in and out of existence, having no core, nothing to grab onto, and being terrified for 10-20 minutes reminds me of the typical progression from Dissolution to Fear. However, you say that it only happens as 3rd path is maturing, whereas the Fear stage happens to every yogi at least once per path in the Mahasi tradition. (Though it doesn't have to be particularly strong or noticeable every time.)

Do you think The Terror is a manifestation of the Fear nyana, or does it seem like a different phenomenon?

Interesting Chuck!

After I believe I got 2nd path or 3rd path(I either got 2nd path or 3rd path as Im not really sure when i got 1st for sure, I may have gotten 1st path in the year 2000 without knowing what it was, but its all speculation, as I remember some odd things which smack of fruitions over the years) I had the most surreal experience of my sense of self warping in and out of existence. I remember rocking back and forth in the shower after my 10 day course feeling like I had no grasp on "me" as it literally felt like waves of energy rocking me back and forth and each time they hit, had no idea where "I" was. It lasted a good 20 to 30 minutes.

Edited to include a quote:
"My forehead hurts and pressure is felt between the eyes. My body feels not of my own and my sense of "self" keeps warping in and out and the body feels like it is in the ocean and being rocked back and forth by the waves. The sensations are intense, almost too intense but the mind seems to stay equanimous automatically. I am not freaking out at all."

The above quote was what I wrote as i was feeling this sense of fear as my sense of self warped in and out.I do remember an odd undercurrent of fear, but I was attempting to accept it all equanimously.
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/An+account+of+stream+entry

"Do you think The Terror is a manifestation of the Fear nyana, or does it seem like a different phenomenon?"

Hi JAdamG,
I don't know what the Fear nyana is so I can't say. The Visudhimagga probably says more about it. Experientially, the switch gets turned off. Everything keeps happening but there is no one home - that is, no personal identity or any sense of self at all, no location. The fear comes because where as in other states you can call up a sense of identity, in this you can't. You just have to wait for it to do its thing. In a way, it is something like sleep paralysis - you are aware but try as you will you can't make your body move. So it is kind of self paralysis I guess you could say. There is nothing that I am aware of in every day experience that compares. After a while I got used to it and came to like it. I think it is just part of the process of letting go of our self identity - we don't give it up easily.

Richard: "The main trouble with the Altered State [unitive, 3rd path] is that whilst the ego dissolves, the identity and soul remain intact. No longer identifying as a personal ego-bound identity [5 lower (form) fetters cut], one then identifies as an impersonal soul-bound identity '“ '˜I am That', '˜I am God', '˜I am The Supreme', '˜I am The Absolute' and so on [still bound by the higher (formless) fetters]. This is the delusion, the mirage, the deception ... and [****]it is extremely difficult to see it for oneself, for one is in an august state.[****]" [my comment and emphasis]. The 10 fetters model is useful.

This is very well stated. The guy would make a great Buddhist

Now here is something to consider: If Richard is actually 4th path, as I am saying, and if his followers make progress along their path - they will absolutely run into this delusion - it will be hard to shake and it will be expressed with "I am (name your absolute freedom formless quality)" and they - being led to believe that they have found something totally new and unique will be in complete denial and will have cut themselves off from the traditions that could have cleared it up for them quite easily.

Just a thought.

Hi Nick,
I am not sure about the 'warping in and out' - doesn't sound familiar. But I can definitely relate to the sense of being 'sucked up into something unknown and spat out' at Stream Entry. But with the difference that between the 'sucked up' and the 'spat out' was a deep experience of the deathless.

Between our two descriptions may be the explanation for the very different descriptions between the two types of practice. Noting practice trains you to note perceivable phenomena very rapidly where as the training that I went through was to rest, suffuse, and immerse awareness into the spaciousness of the body.

In my case, I was practicing an internal chi gong, immersed in the body energy, when I became aware of a very pleasant energetic sensation. Awareness just sort of dropped ever deeper into this. I must have gone deep into the jhanas (warning: overloaded function!) - the mind became so still that there was no longer any sense of being at all - and then there was a sensation of something like my consciousness being sucked up through the neck of a bottle - it is this sensation that sort of brought me out of the 'jhana nothingness'. Then consciousness exploded into a vastness - no me, no time, no space, no perceivable phenomena at all and yet a vast knowingness. In this I understood how humanity was trapped in their self-identities - like a prison. I was outside the prison - looking in and it was very very clear how samsara was constructed. Though I use the term 'I' there was no I involved. After a while the sense of a universe appeared, then I reappeared - and fear with it, and I dropped back into the universe.

Here is a Theory:
The deathless has no perceivable qualities to note - yet, it is knowable. If the mind is inclined toward letting go, then it sees the deathless - if it is focused on noting, it notes the next perceivable phenomena. The difference in attention may be the reason why the paths are described so differently in the two traditions. And it may be the key to bridging them. I know this may seem strange from the Mahasi outlook on things - but this is what I come up with. Thoughts anyone?

-Chuck

"
The deathless has no perceivable qualities to note - yet, it is knowable. If the mind is inclined toward letting go, then it sees the deathless -"

Hi Chuck,

Could you elaborate on this? I have recently discovered that I can take on a view of the 5 aggregates where there is no caring for them. No grasping or waiting (like the noting) for the next one to arise. and within a number of seconds the mind sinks into what I have come to call nirodha samapatti. But it lasts a second or so and the mind unsinks. It is definitly a cessation moment at the end of the sinking into the darkness. Also i have recently discovered observing any sankhara (mental volition) as it arises perhaps also aware of the sensation that accompanies it, and I will take on the view of its impermanence, and thus not have any care if it arises to pass away right away. No care whatsoever and so as soon as it arises, it vanishes and at the very moment it's gone I get quick cessation moments. If I take on this view then i end up constantly conking out every couple of seconds. All it takes is to stop any noting and just wait for an aggregate like sankharas, to pass away. This seems to allow for complete dispassion to take over.

is that what you are referring to? or is there still awareness in the "deathless" you speak of?

Nick

"Here is a Theory:
The deathless has no perceivable qualities to note - yet, it is knowable. If the mind is inclined toward letting go, then it sees the deathless - if it is focused on noting, it notes the next perceivable phenomena. The difference in attention may be the reason why the paths are described so differently in the two traditions. And it may be the key to bridging them. I know this may seem strange from the Mahasi outlook on things - but this is what I come up with. Thoughts anyone?

-Chuck"

I have a few questions to you Chuck: are you still able to 'know/see' this 'deathless'? If so, then I would be convinced that what you have attained isn't actual freedom. If not, then why exactly do you call it "deathless"? Do you believe it won't die when you do? do you believe this 'deathless' is anything other than a mental artifact produced by your physical brain?

A thought: I once asked you if you felt emotion, and you wrote (something along the lines of) emotion is felt as physical stuff happening in the body; in answer to the same question, Tarin answers he feels no emotion whatsoever. Could you please address this apparent difference at some point in your post? (or, if it happens to be the case, state right out that you can't/aren't sure how settle this apparent difference)

A final thought: this is a thread which tries to understand actualism and comparing it with other meditative technologies, without the participation of an accomplished actualist, such as Tarin or Trent. Interpreting Richard's static words is a poor substitute for dialogue with someone who actually understands them and put them to use. I think Tarin has a solid knowledge of buddhism also. Maybe it would be possible to organize a public dialogue, sometime next year, maybe doing that cool skype conference thing, and record it. I think this would help clarify stuff for everyone.

"In my case, I was practicing an internal chi gong, immersed in the body energy, when I became aware of a very pleasant energetic sensation. Awareness just sort of dropped ever deeper into this. I must have gone deep into the jhanas (warning: overloaded function!) - the mind became so still that there was no longer any sense of being at all - and then there was a sensation of something like my consciousness being sucked up through the neck of a bottle - it is this sensation that sort of brought me out of the 'jhana nothingness'. Then consciousness exploded into a vastness - no me, no time, no space, no perceivable phenomena at all and yet a vast knowingness. In this I understood how humanity was trapped in their self-identities - like a prison. I was outside the prison - looking in and it was very very clear how samsara was constructed. Though I use the term 'I' there was no I involved. After a while the sense of a universe appeared, then I reappeared - and fear with it, and I dropped back into the universe."

This is very similar to what I have encountered although it is is very clear for me that I am moving through the four formed and then the four formless jhana. From 8th jhana, where, in my case, consciousness is so subtle and attenuated that it is barely there and nothing else is perceptible, it is simply the falling away of that last shred of consciousness. With the cessation or nibbana that then arises, there is that nibbana, it exists, it isn't just a blip out or a blank spot, but it isn't consciousness at all. With the slightest inclination to apply consciousness it is like being 'spit out' again and consciousness once more arises but there is definately no consciousness or anything else explicable in that nibbana/cessation. So it is very paradoxical, very inexplicable, as it clearly is a reality but there is nothing whatsoever of an experiencer or and experience of 'something'. cont. ->

"Here is a Theory:
The deathless has no perceivable qualities to note - yet, it is knowable. If the mind is inclined toward letting go, then it sees the deathless - if it is focused on noting, it notes the next perceivable phenomena. The difference in attention may be the reason why the paths are described so differently in the two traditions. And it may be the key to bridging them. I know this may seem strange from the Mahasi outlook on things - but this is what I come up with. Thoughts anyone?

-Chuck"

Hi Chuck,

That fits in with my experience nicely - I started doing a cocktail of noting practice and more immersive mindfulness (sutta-style satipatthana), and some rather philosophical "mindfulness of death" around this time last year. A few months later, while reading Epicurus' letter to Menoeceus for the nth time, the famous phrase, "death is nothing to us" struck me as describing very concisely an insight I had found. Then I made the connection to the Buddha's "deathless".

Duncan Barford, who practices in a different tradition, remarked to me at that time that he considers fruitions to be primarily insight-producing rather than experience-producing, which also fits in with what I understand you to be saying here.

Now the experience of the three doors, and the deducible non-experience of the gap of fruition, and the experience of the afterglow - all these can be found and are valid and useful indicators. Insights like knowledge of the deathless can't be put into phenomenological terms so easily, and they can be confused with or occluded by intellectual insights in discussion - it's much more convenient and "safe" to talk about.

To me the key point, driven home again and again, is that it's about exploring experience, aided by a map - rather than exploring just the map.

Cheers,
Florian

But there is an unparalleled bliss-like aspect to it that is completely unique. Next to it Jhana, orgasm, whatever conditional pleasure or rapture or peace or whatever is just crap, garbage. And a quality of freedom that is completely inclusive, that is directly related to the complete absence of absolutely everything that one could possibly identify with in any way. So the best I can do, for myself even, to describe it in relation to consciousness is that this 'unconditional phenomena' that is apparent in the complete absence of all conditional phenomena 'knows itself'. A way of describing it which most buddhists and philosophers I have discussed this with have had various problems with. But to be completely accurate, it is honestly just impossible to describe in any imaginable terms. So there is that, as far as I know, in the absence of any other phenomena, and knowing that it is there, all the time, everywhere, kind of behind the veil of conditional phenomena just seems to continually undermine any potential for conscious identifications to ever get any kind of purchase in conditions again. This extends all the way out into the most external kinds of phenomena and all the way in through the body, the senses, the feelings, the thoughts and consciousness. All of that phenomena, for all its compelling realness, just comes across as completely insubstantial and clearly, continually arising and falling away. It just looses all its capacity to engage the consciousness. Conversely, the completely consistent and completely at ease nature of that unconditional phenomena 'behind the scenes' seems like the only reality in the universe worth merging with. Given the options of the fleeting conditions or the incomparable peace, it's just no contest. And then, it's like over time, even that deepest kind of inclination to polarities just looses it's grip and the whole works, conditional and unconditional, has no hold any more.

In my previous post, the second to last paragraph, should have read, "... convenient and 'safe' to talk about *phenomenology*."

Cheers,
Florian

"Duncan Barford, who practices in a different tradition, remarked to me at that time that he considers fruitions to be primarily insight-producing rather than experience-producing, which also fits in with what I understand you to be saying here.

Now the experience of the three doors, and the deducible non-experience of the gap of fruition, and the experience of the afterglow - all these can be found and are valid and useful indicators. Insights like knowledge of the deathless can't be put into phenomenological terms so easily, and they can be confused with or occluded by intellectual insights in discussion - it's much more convenient and "safe" to talk about.

To me the key point, driven home again and again, is that it's about exploring experience, aided by a map - rather than exploring just the map.

Cheers,
Florian"

I really like that 'fruitions as primarily insight producing', I would concur with that. The 3 doors and the gaps, even the nanas and jhanas, all of that I have had to very carefully review either as the phenomena arise and pass again or by careful examination of past experiences. In my case it wasn't about maps at all and experience was kind of secondary. I proceeded by attempting to simply find everything in the body senses and consciousness that it was possible to directly know and to know with complete certainty what qualities and characteristics consistently defined the body/mind et al. So much like Kenneth, but right from the start, it has been about awareness of the full range of possible experience, hell to heaven, or however you want to describe it. I wanted to know being for what it was, with no preconceptions whatsoever. I didn't start looking into traditional teachings until after I was absolutely certain about things like the 3Cs and the unconditional and so on. After establishing certainties then I looked into seeing if there were any corroborating sources.

On the AF stuff, I just don't get it. It simply has no appeal at all for me. I'm not sure if that is because I am more like the AF people than not or because it just doesn't matter much to me whether a given moment is pleasant, neutral or unpleasant. I don't understand the significance that is given to not discerning different feeling qualities. So what? Sounds a lot like prozak or something. But I don't intend to be critical, if it is what people are into, fine, go for it. I'm more curious to see how AF works out for people in the long run, say 50 years from now. It does seem odd that those who are into it are so defensive about it. Why not let others comment on it? Whats the big deal if there is no change in feelings regardless of what is going on? Is the writing on it all that bad that people who don't practice AF couldn't possibly understand what people who do practice it are saying? I've thought that Tarin, in particular, has articulated more or less everything about it quite clearly and in terms that we are all quite familiar with. How long is the rest of the world supposed to wait before we can comment on AF or compare it to other methods and practices? It's public knowledge now, might as well let the dialog continue, it's either that or by default having AF characterized in even less flattering terms, what with people being so hypersensitive and territorial about, for some unknown reason, being uniquely the only ones who can know and or discuss what it is like to experience no affective feelings of identification with various phenomena or the capacity to engage with the emancipation by means of the beautiful.

Hi Bruno,

deathless -> unconditioned, not subject to change. I try to use the same words that others do to describe this experience.

Ajahn Chah: "Then sitting, we are happy; lying down, we are happy; wherever we are, we are happy. We become without fault, experience no ill results, and live in a state of freedom."

From Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
"With release, we plunge into the freedom of a happiness so true that it transcends the terms of the original question that led us there. There's nothing further we have to do; our sense of "my" and "mine" is discarded; and even the "long-term," which implies time, is erased by the timeless. ... Totally independent of mind-objects, it's unadulterated and unalterable, unlimited and pure." - [ www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/change.html| source]

My main interest is in reconciling the two very different views of awakening (Mahasi and Chah). AF has caused much confusion but is just one persons take on 'Chah' and is a small blip in the world of the Dharma. I am not trying to understand actualism - I am looking right at it. Personally, I find Richards words very clear and understandable - much more so than the others.

As Nathan (triplethink) points out [edit: I think he is pointing this out], AFs focus is just a stage along the way. Stay or move on - the Buddha moved on.

If all you do is look at individual words you won't see what I am saying. Apply the [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test |duck test] don't focus on the color of the feathers. You have to step back. This stuff is not easy to see. I wish it was.

-Chuck

OK, can someone help me with the syntax for creating links?

"Could you elaborate on this? ...is that what you are referring to? or is there still awareness in the "deathless" you speak of?"

Hi Nick,
I suggest you pick this up with Nathan if you haven't already. He is much more familiar with the language, experiences, and techniques of this tradition.

-Chuck