Mahasi and Chah

And it seems hard to avoid the impression that all the teachings the Buddha gave were addressed to particuklar audiences with particular inclinations. A wealth of "pure, true, original" teachings

"Wow Nathan, this is a powerful and provocative statement! I find it really refreshing too though--- I have to admit, my tendency to want to model experiences-- mundane or spiritual-- seems to be the very opposite of what I understand by liberation in the here and now."

Is it really? Gee whiz. It's only an account of what I've found or not found in the Tipitaka and a similarly honest reporting of what I've found or not found in life. From earliest memory, growing up experiencing life as I did, in a state of continuous vipassana auto-pilot, the initial episodes of deep jhana and the breakthrough to the 'unconditioned element' or 'deathless dhamma' was both a relief from that condition of ceaseless vigilance and self examination (aka insight disease) and a kind of 911 for any and all models of the self or the world. I doubt the fabrications of self conceptions and meanings throughout childhood and on into adulthood occur due to any inherent merits but rather are demanded within individuals and by social structures for the purposes of survival. That these inherent survival mechanisms continue to elaborate and concretize beyond need and even to the extent that they become parasitic or pathological is something we, unlike perhaps a snail, occasionally have the inclination for investigating. Unfortunately, seen for what these are, we are neither a self nor not a self, we find processes. We fall back on models if we can't reconcile a life without one. A life that acknowledges essence-less processes and abandons concretions and models doesn't integrate well into broader social structures that rely on these supports but it is a reflectively honest life through and through. Alone but not lonely.

Let's bring it home. What is happening in this moment, in this mind and especially in this body? I say "especially" because this body does not lie; while the mind can spin endless loops, the body will always give you the straight scoop. When you feel the body, all at once, as you read this or as you compose your reply, what is going on? We are not doing this practice in order to have good ideas or to be right or clever, witty or bright. Are we? Why are we doing this practice? This is something for each of us to reflect upon.

If there is value to the practice that brings us together on this forum, it must lie beyond the momentary satisfaction of a witty rejoinder or the feeling of having been validated by others. It's possible to be complete in this moment, deliciously full of life, full of pain and of beauty. Anyone can feel this for at least a moment. When it becomes your default state, we say you are enlightened. The fact that it is possible, the fact that we come together to share the practices that lead to it... this is pragmatic dharma. Everything we do here, ideally, is dedicated to this waking up and to helping others awaken.

Do it now. Feel the body, all at once. Notice how dynamic it is, how rich. Feel how it flows. This is your life. You have no other. Do you want to help others, make a difference in the world, learn how to listen and to be kind, truly understand what is going on from one moment to the next? The best way to do that is to wake up. Wake up now.

It isn't hard. It just takes commitment. What is happening now in your body and in your mind? You can do this. If you will stay continuously in your body, watching how it interacts with your mind, you will wake up. But if you wake up, as Adyashanti once said, "be prepared to wake up in an insane asylum." After the initial shock, you can get busy helping the other inmates to wake up too.

"A life that acknowledges essence-less processes and abandons concretions and models doesn't integrate well into broader social structures that rely on these supports but it is a reflectively honest life through and through. Alone but not lonely." --Nathan

"But if you wake up, as Adyashanti once said, "be prepared to wake up in an insane asylum." After the initial shock, you can get busy helping the other inmates to wake up too." --Kenneth

Yes, I feel this.

"I doubt the fabrications of self conceptions and meanings throughout childhood and on into adulthood occur due to any inherent merits but rather are demanded within individuals and by social structures for the purposes of survival" --Nathan

Yes, if I understand you, this is what I meant. It seems we're saying similar things. In order for there to be the kinds of beings who can go care enough to go deeply into this, these false constructions seem to have been evolutionarily necessary-- at least in our universe. I find it astonishing and ironic that the same momentum which over-shoots into all the aweful suffering of human existence also gives rise to such a profound possibility of freedom. I would never want to erase the years of suffering throughout childhood and young adulthood if it meant also erasing the possibility of living in freedom which seems so available now, moment to moment.

Metta to you both and be well

"Let's bring it home. What is happening in this moment, in this mind and especially in this body?"

As the water line here has been frozen for two weeks, it's frankly more than a little itchy on the surface and quite 'fragrant' overall. Cooking is next to impossible so the diet lately is total crap and the digestive system is in open rebellion.

"Why are we doing this practice?"

I was born this way and despite everything in my environment persisting in violent opposition to this approach somehow nonetheless demanded a brutal honesty in the accounting of all aspects of moment by moment experience.

Validated? Are you kidding? Complete in this moment? Ok, now I know your kidding, what the heck is complete in this moment? My default state is not buying into any bs, originating in this mind or anywhere else. Deliciously full of life sounds fantastic, Disneyesque even, suspiciously like deliciously full of ignorance. Why is awake being sold like beer or a new car?

It's not a shock, its an ongoing awareness of the abundant and continual dangers of falling prey to delusions gross and subtle, if it looks like an asylum then one can look much deeper, it's a meat grinder, a bloody battlefield from one end to the other built on a mountain of bones surrounded by seas of tears. This complete moment arises on the basis of imponderable previous moments of failing to acknowledge that it is all dukkha, no matter how delicious or rare this T-bone of a moment is. I agree it takes commitment to see things for what they are I disagree that it isn't also hard. In fact it's f-ing terrifying, if it isn't you either aren't paying attention, aren't seeing clearly or aren't being honest about what you see. I've seen more than a few people have nervous breakdowns from a brief glimpse of reality. This is why most everyone is in denial and gurus sell fluff.

I respect the Pali Tipitaka not least because it doesn't sugar coat anything. It doesn't mean I like the truth of things as they are, it doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to believe otherwise if I only could. Awake is awake is awake, you can't go back to sleep, you can't live in denial, you can't un-ring the bell. But it doesn't give me a license to go ring everyone else's bells.

Down the road is a young man, going overseas as an artilleryman, it is his dream to kill towelheads or anyone else who won't acknowledge the obvious superiority of his race and his myopic worldviews. His idol is Adolph Hitler and his dream is to drive his tank through a mosque. Everyone in these here parts thinks he is a nice young boy. I suppose I'm simply not daredevil enough to help out around here, on the whole it seems best to keep to myself and keep my mouth shut. It would be ironic to have the same impression of dharma forums, even one's like this but not entirely surprising. People are what they are, awake or not. Apologies if any of that comes across as mere witty reparte, overly literate or tactless, so it goes.

A dose of reality is always a good thing. It might hurt but then pain isn't always delusion and delusion isn't always pain.

"What is happening in this moment, in this mind and especially in this body? I say 'especially' because this body does not lie; while the mind can spin endless loops, the body will always give you the straight scoop." ~Kenneth

I see where you're coming from with this statement, Kenneth. I'm all for body-oriented practice, particularly with regard to working dismantling reactive emotions. I think it's true that thoughts, and thus reactive emotional activity, tends to play on the information received by the body. But I hesitate to agree with you that, "this body does not lie... the body will always give you the straight scoop." This proposition carries with it the assumption that experiencing body sensations is truly "direct", while experiencing thoughts (image/talk) is "indirect". In my experience, there are no experiences of phenomenal appearances that are not somehow shaped by perception. In this case, your stated perception of the body is, "This is direct. There is no illusion here, unlike with thoughts." This, to me, seems like something that should be explored further.

~Jackson

"@Nathan: In fact it's f-ing terrifying, if it isn't you either aren't paying attention, aren't seeing clearly or aren't being honest about what you see. I've seen more than a few people have nervous breakdowns from a brief glimpse of reality. This is why most everyone is in denial and gurus sell fluff."

I hear that you are hurt and angry, Nathan, and I apologize for that. Hurting you was never my intention. My intention is to point to this very situation as a practice opportunity. That's what this forum is for.

This is something I would never do in an ordinary conversation, even among fellow practitioners; it's almost always unwelcome to interrupt someone's righteous indignation to ask them to feel their body. But this forum is a special place. We all give each other permission to suggest such things by the very act of participating here.

Right now is the opportunity. This is not a game or a gambit for me to win an argument; this is the opportunity. When you are hurt and angry and indignant, how does your body feel? (This goes for everyone who is reading this.)

We aren't here on this forum to end war, so let's not get distracted. This forum is dedicated to the happiness that does not depend on conditions, aka the end of suffering. This is a realistic goal.

Right now, as you are reading this, you can put your attention in your body. Feel the waves of tension and release, unpleasant and pleasant. No excuses, just being present. This is way out of the asylum, one moment at a time.

"In this case, your stated perception of the body is, 'This is direct. There is no illusion here, unlike with thoughts.' This, to me, seems like something that should be explored further." -awouldbehipster

The way you presented that, it might appear as though it were a quote from me, but it was not; it was your interpretation of what I said. It's good to be clear about these things.

"In my experience, there are no experiences of phenomenal appearances that are not somehow shaped by perception." -awouldbehipster

Is your experience of your body in this moment "shaped by perception"? Or is it simply perception?

There is no value in overcomplicating this if the objective is awakening. If you feel your body as it is, in this moment, your are experiencing reality. If you do this enough, you will wake up. Your thoughts, on the other hand, are going to be slippery. Better to emphasize the body. There are four foundations of mindfulness, and I recommend them all. Just be sure to ground it all in the body the whole time because thoughts are slippery and can take you on a lifelong journey of tail-chasing if you let them.

" If you feel your body as it is, in this moment, your are experiencing reality. If you do this enough, you will wake up. Your thoughts, on the other hand, are going to be slippery. Better to emphasize the body. There are four foundations of mindfulness, and I recommend them all. Just be sure to ground it all in the body the whole time because thoughts are slippery and can take you on a lifelong journey of tail-chasing if you let them. - Kenneth"

This is interesting, Kenneth.
I believe SN Goenka is all about what you are talking about. They keep emphasizing to ground yourself in body-awareness all the time - though that may be heavy on the body-awareness side and too light on the mind-awareness side.

May I be correct in interpreting what you are saying here - that one's practice should be a balance of awareness of body and of mind? Not to put one's attention too strongly on either side so to speak?

"A dose of reality is always a good thing. It might hurt but then pain isn't always delusion and delusion isn't always pain." -cmarti

Yes, reality is the key. Reality is happening now. Pressure, warmth, coolness, tension, release of tension, compassion, heaviness, lightness, itching, hearing, seeing, smelling, tightness, hardness, softness, thoughts of the future, thoughts of the past, imaging thoughts, pressure, hearing, itching, heaviness, acceptance, lovingkindness, equanimity, hearing, seeing, smelling, pressure.

"The way you presented that, it might appear as though it were a quote from me, but it was not; it was your interpretation of what I said. It's good to be clear about these things." -KF

You're right, I did not directly quote you in my statement. I was paraphrasing, and so it was my interpretation. Was I that far off?

"Is your experience of your body in this moment 'shaped by perception'? Or is it simply perception?" -KF

Not sure that I follow.

"If you feel your body as it is, in this moment, your are experiencing reality." -KF

Again, I see an assumption at work here. How is experiencing the body any different from experiencing thoughts? Can we become caught up in the body in the same way that we get caught up in thought? Likewise, can we discern the true nature of thought in the same way that we can discern the true nature of the body?

Grounding one's experience in the body is helpful for discerning the ephemeral, empty, impermanent nature of thought. I think it is also the case that becoming absorbed in consciousness is a good way to discern the ephemeral, empty, impermanent nature of the body. What I don't see is why preference is given to the body as though it is real, but other appearances (particularly, thought) are somehow unreal in comparison.

It's quite easy to suggest that analyzing experience in this way is counter-productive, and thus to reply back with, "What is your experience right now? Where do you feel this in your body?" Might I suggest that this answer isn't always appropriate to the situation. It starts to sound like the Advaita Shuffle; e.g. "Who wants to know? Who is asking? Who, who, who?" Sometimes things need to be addressed at the appropriate level, which isn't always the body.

-Jackson

"May I be correct in interpreting what you are saying here - that one's practice should be a balance of awareness of body and of mind? Not to put one's attention too strongly on either side so to speak?" -Yadid

Yes, that is what I'm saying. We need to make the body and mind transparent in realtime, and that includes the whole package of what in Buddhism are listed as the six sense doors: seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking. Interesting that thinking is not held apart from the "five senses" of western thought or given any special status; thinking is just another sensory input. Suffering is caused when we lose touch with the raw data and create compounds like self and the "afflictive" emotions, which we then climb into and try to live in. This is what I mean by the proxy life. By paying attention to the raw data, always taking refuge in the body to take advantage of its grounding quality, we deconstruct the compounds and live each moment as it is. While the proxy life is suffering, the uncompounded reality is selfless. When there is no one to suffer, there is no suffering.

And life goes on. Relationships go on; in fact, they get better. Loved ones still matter. And when you are not having to constantly defend yourself from perceived attacks, you can be more attentive to your loved ones as they go through their own difficult times. This in turn makes them feel safer and more-loved.

The body is emphasized as the 1st foundation of mindfulness because the body doesn't lie. It's just as it is, in this moment. So, the body is the place to begin a meditation practice, it's the place to live all along the way, and it's where you live after awakening.

"Bhikkhus, when one dhamma is developed and cultivated it leads to a great sense of urgency, to great benefit, to great safety from bondage, to great mindfulness and full awareness, to obtainment of knowledge and insight, to a pleasant abiding here and now, to realization of the fruit of true knowledge and deliverance. What is that one dhamma? It is mindfulness occupied with the body."
'” A. I. 43

§2 The Advantages of Mindfulness of the Body
One conquers aversion and delight,
And fear and dread as well.
Besides, one can stand cold and heat, hunger and thirst, troublesome things in the world, harsh words and painful feelings.
One obtains all four jhanas,
And supernormal faculties,
The heavenly ear element (clairaudience),
Knowledge of others' minds,
And of all one's past lives,
And sees besides, how beings appear and pass away according to their kamma.
Finally one enters upon the two deliverances (of the heart and by wisdom), and all taints (asava) are abolished.
'” M. 119

"When anyone has developed and repeatedly practiced mindfulness of the body, he has included whatever wholesome dhammas (mental states) there are that partake of true knowledge (vijja).

"Just as anyone who extends his mind over the great ocean has included whatever streams there are that flow into the ocean, so too, when anyone has developed and repeatedly practiced mindfulness of the body, he has included whatever wholesome dhammas there are that partake of true knowledge."

'” M. 119

"This my body consists of the four great elements, is procreated by a mother and father, is built up out of boiled rice and bread, is of the nature of impermanence, of being worn and rubbed away, of dissolution and disintegration, and this my consciousness has that for its support and is bound up with it."

'” M. 77

www.accesstoinsight.org

"How is experiencing the body any different from experiencing thoughts?" -awouldbehipster

It's a matter of practicality. It is very difficult to see thoughts as thoughts without getting lost in the content. It's much more likely that a yogi will be able to remain present by following body sensations. Once grounded in the body and remaining continuously grounded in the body, it's possible to also see thoughts arise and pass without getting lost in them. So, the body must come first, and this continues even into the advanced levels of practice; so much so, in fact, that remaining continuously in the body is prerequisite to the higher levels of awakening (the 6th and 7th of the KF stages).

"Can we become caught up in the body in the same way that we get caught up in thought?" -hpstr

I don't think so. We get caught up when we ignore or dissociate from the body.

"Likewise, can we discern the true nature of thought in the same way that we can discern the true nature of the body?" -hpstr

Yes, and we have to do so in order to awaken, which is why there are 4 foundations of mindfulness. Still, trying to do the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th foundations of mindfulness without mastery of the 1st (body) would be an exercise in futility.

"I think it is also the case that becoming absorbed in consciousness is a good way to discern the ephemeral, empty, impermanent nature of the body." -hpstr

No, it isn't. This is why Buddhist theory insists that the absorptions (jhanas) alone will not lead to awakening. It is possible to become a master of dissociation through jhana.

"What I don't see is why preference is given to the body as though it is real, but other appearances (particularly, thought) are somehow unreal in comparison." -hpstr

Thoughts are real sensory input. Getting lost in the content of thought is the hazard.

"I hear that you are hurt and angry, Nathan, and I apologize for that."

Apologies then, for not being clear, here and elsewhere. You have never in any way caused hurt or anger in me Kenneth. There are points where we disagree. I think discussing disagreements can be beneficial. Even when I said yogis have had disagreements and parted company on forums in the past and put it in terms of acrimony it was only to illustrate the parting of ways and not to indicate that anyone was experiencing or nurturing ill will. I suppose I will have to tone down the colorful language.

"...it's almost always unwelcome to interrupt someone's righteous indignation to ask them to feel their body."

Again, my apologies, righteous indignation doesn't interest me, I was raised Baptist, I haven't been practicing that way, although I did go to church with the family this Christmas, they like that. I don't know that winning an argument is ever the point, generally in more traditional Theravada forums, different takes on teachings or practices persist for years and people continue to discuss their interpretative differences at length, drawing on a variety of textual sources to illustrate how various interpretations are possible.

Similarly, I wasn't saying we can't help those who are looking for help with a practice but that for the majority of people in the world yogic practices are out of the question. That is what I've observed, most people are terrified when they encounter hidden aspects of their real psyche or the absence of an essential nature, etc.. So in most cases with most people it is more important to tread lightly around their delusions and ignorance.

I don't think the body causes the deceptions that the mind is capable of but it can also be misleading at times. Moment to moment body awareness is generally grounding but not always, its conditionally dependent.

" Moment to moment body awareness is generally grounding but not always, it's conditionally dependent."

That's a good point.

It seems that body sensations are being referred to as different (more truthful?) than other sense perceptions, like sights, sounds, and so on. How could that be? Isn't the ignorance, confusion and deceit coming from the mind's machinations in all these cases? Aren't all sensory perceptions mediated? How could it be otherwise?

Just curious... needing more detailed explanation.

"Can we become caught up in the body in the same way that we get caught up in thought?" -hpstr

I don't think so. We get caught up when we ignore or dissociate from the body.
-KF

"Likewise, can we discern the true nature of thought in the same way that we can discern the true nature of the body?" -hpstr

Yes, and we have to do so in order to awaken, which is why there are 4 foundations of mindfulness. Still, trying to do the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th foundations of mindfulness without mastery of the 1st (body) would be an exercise in futility.
-KF

"I think it is also the case that becoming absorbed in consciousness is a good way to discern the ephemeral, empty, impermanent nature of the body." -hpstr

No, it isn't. This is why Buddhist theory insists that the absorptions (jhanas) alone will not lead to awakening. It is possible to become a master of dissociation through jhana.
-KF

Ok, statements like this is where I think it's necessary to reference sources, there is no support for statements in simply referring to something as nebulous as 'buddhist theory'. There have been many buddhist schools of thought, pundits and teachers, most with distinctly opposing views, so if you are going to rest this point on the work of others it's important to cite specific sources. I understand that's not your style, but this is why we have the capacity for thought, sometimes it's necessary to use thoughts skillfully.

"What I don't see is why preference is given to the body as though it is real, but other appearances (particularly, thought) are somehow unreal in comparison." -hpstr

Thoughts are real sensory input. Getting lost in the content of thought is the hazard.
-KF

The emphasis you place on the body and the sense doors is fundamental frames of reference stuff, understandable.

The emphasis you place on the body and the sense doors is fundamental frames of reference stuff, understandable. It's well worth repeating as frequently as you do. Some of us get it though, some of us have been doing this as long or longer than you have and are quite clear on the importance of this kind of awareness. I get the impression sometimes that you are almost phobic about content whereas my sense of content, bodily, sensory, feeling, thinking, mental qualities is an ongoing sense of just how plastic and thoroughly anatta it all is. This is what constantly presents in every moment, even jhana moments or weird iddhi moments, the content feebly attempts to fabricate whatever out of it, only to fall to bits again which is why I find the models futile beyond very simple abstracted principles about how samsaric ignorance and delusion function and how to break down the chain of DO. Beyond simple principles aka the 4NT, one is simply building a philosophical school of thought and that activity seems nearly as delusional as building a self or world concept up out of the raw bits of samsaric flux. Again, it doesn't upset me, go ahead, philosophize, model, whatever. Just that it does get to that point where thought no longer congeals effectively and even maps and models and theorizing and philosophizing, etc just doesn't hold together anymore.
I agree, a lot of this is reflected in the immediacy of body awareness and there is a parallel in that feelings also fail to form up as they once did and instead sense impressions are much more clear, raw and immediate.

I'm not sure however that people need to drive themselves after stream entry gets the ball rolling, it's like the process does itself. I guess if someone is in a hurry 'to get off the ride' then time is of the essence. On the other hand, if you recognize, this is your last ride, well then one may prefer to take in the scenery.

"" Moment to moment body awareness is generally grounding but not always, it's conditionally dependent."

That's a good point.

It seems that body sensations are being referred to as different (more truthful?) than other sense perceptions, like sights, sounds, and so on. How could that be? Isn't the ignorance, confusion and deceit coming from the mind's machinations in all these cases? Aren't all sensory perceptions mediated? How could it be otherwise?

Just curious... needing more detailed explanation."

Yes, it's a process, like watching fish in a tank, it takes a time, observing without preconceptions before all preconceptions and conceiving in general start to drop off naturally but eventually not conceiving becomes the norm. Then it is all kind of the same. I get the impression much of the time that it is all variously tactile in relation to the mind, there are six doors but at the end of the line the mind has to touch each momentary impression. Apart from molding all of these impressions into some sort of meaningful picture, these remain simply impressions and they loose their hold on the mind. Same thing with deeper aspects of the mind, mental qualities, consciousness qualities and ultimately even with the unconditioned element or nibbana, all loose their hold. When nothing holds, when there is no resort, no refuge, no sanctuary and no one nothing to secure, then nibbana becomes a sanctuary by default because it is uniquely sukkha as opposed to dukkha. However everything originating from conditionally dependent causes remains clearly dukkha, were that not so nibbana would not be the default sanctuary. Very difficult to explain well, it happens as a process over time, slowly over lifetimes or faster when conditions permit. With cognitive dissonance between samsara and nibbana there is still subtle stress but if the process is underway it will eventually resolve the anxiety and agitation.

What is particularly supportive of non-delusion about the body is that it is, in the absence of misapprehension so demonstrably dukkha. It's notably disgusting, disturbing, uncomfortable, diseased, distressed, etc., etc.. Superficially the body served as a foundation for the senses which serve as the floodgates for the ten thousand delightful impressions that flow in through the senses but once the body is exposed for what it is; in the Buddha's words "nine wounds in a wet bag of skin" it looses its appeal as a beachhead for ignorance and delusion and begins to serve as a vehicle for observing the whole process of being and becoming for what it is, which is really a mechanism for enslavement to processes of ignorance and delusion, sickness, aging and death. Which is why I have been looking for more clarity from Kenneth on the unvarnished apprehension of this. Sometimes I get the impression that he is suggesting that the dukkha nature of conditions somehow goes away simply because there is no identification with it. I don't have that impression directly, with or without self/world fabrications, the dependently originating conditions are, were and will be dukkha and will never be otherwise, were it not so, one would not seek making an end of the ignorance, delusions, involvements, attachments and aversions and arrive at nibbana without even the support of any affinity for it. So, could you clarify your statements on changes in relation to the dukkha nature of DO conditions a bit Kenneth?

Some potentially relevant recent commentary about modern western interpretations of Buddhadhamma:

Article
www.tricycle.com/feature/romancing-buddha?=o,o

Talk
www.audiodharma.org/teacher/16/
Buddhist Romanticism 2002-03-25 44:16

Discussion
www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6859

"Which is why I have been looking for more clarity from Kenneth on the unvarnished apprehension of this. Sometimes I get the impression that he is suggesting that the dukkha nature of conditions somehow goes away simply because there is no identification with it." -triplethink

We do this practice to come to the end of suffering. The practice works. Aversion goes away, or more accurately, is seen as the mirage that it always was. At that point, there is just the body and mind doing what they do, responding to life moment by moment.

Aversion is a mirage, compounded from body sensations and mental impressions. When the aversion is seen in realtime as a compound, it is no longer experienced as aversion.

From this vantage point, ideas of the body as an object of revulsion are seen as skillful means that have served their purpose and been left behind. The body is just the body. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it feels bad. There are no conclusions to be drawn about this; there are just these ideas, arising according to conditions.

We aren't doing this practice in order to learn the right way to think about our lives. We are doing this practice in order to be free, to see clearly, to find out what is really going on. It's possible to accept your life just as it is. This moment by moment acceptance of life is enlightenment.

"We do this practice to come to the end of suffering. The practice works. Aversion goes away, or more accurately, is seen as the mirage that it always was. At that point, there is just the body and mind doing what they do, responding to life moment by moment.

Aversion is a mirage, compounded from body sensations and mental impressions. When the aversion is seen in realtime as a compound, it is no longer experienced as aversion.

From this vantage point, ideas of the body as an object of revulsion are seen as skillful means that have served their purpose and been left behind. The body is just the body. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it feels bad. There are no conclusions to be drawn about this; there are just these ideas, arising according to conditions.

We aren't doing this practice in order to learn the right way to think about our lives. We are doing this practice in order to be free, to see clearly, to find out what is really going on. It's possible to accept your life just as it is. This moment by moment acceptance of life is enlightenment."

Ok, thanks for clarifying. Also, thanks for clarifying again what enlightenment is for you. All I would add is that in my understanding this is only one aspect of the situation and that in the larger context of the Buddha's teaching there are other concerns and other vital perspectives on what full awakening is about. We don't have to agree, we don't even have to dialog but it can be beneficial. For example I've been in email dialogs with both Chuck and Tarin for well over a year now and while our practices and experiences both converge and diverge at times we continue to exchange notes on both to, I think, our mutual benefit. Here I try to stay away from the main body practice oriented discussion threads as this is primarily your teaching forum and occasionally toss in some notes relevant to the study of Buddhadhamma in a historical or philosophical light.