Records of a Reclus

First couple of sits with eyes closed were weird for me. I found my concentration kicked into high gear quickly. Didn't realize how distracting it was to have them open.

I asked about the eyes open thing at the zendo once. The answer I got was "So we can tell when you fall asleep and yell at you."

"Of course, I'd love to hear what other people's take is on the whole eyes open / eyes closed thing..." ~Ian

I practice eyes-closed when sitting, eyes open when walking... haha

The eyes-closed approach can be challenging, as the sorts of images that arise in the dreamscape can be distracting at first. However, working with the dreamscape has been very beneficial to my practice. Where I used to get very distracted by visions - particular the ones that are either scary or sexy - it's not longer a big deal. They arise and vanish like smoke or vapor. It's a nice skill to develop.

Eyes-open obviously cuts down on the amount of dreamscape distractions, but there are plenty of gross realm distractions out there as well. Being ADD, practicing eyes-open hasn't ever really worked for me.

Of course, whatever actually works for you is what's best. If you experiment with eyes-closed, let us know how it goes.

~Jackson

Hmm, I've secretly been wondering why visions and dreamscape type stuff wasn't happening for me. I've always been able to call up a stream of random images by closing my eyes and just kind of looking for them. Should have put two and two together.... : )

I think I will give this a shot tomorrow. I'll keep you all posted.

Sat for 20 minutes this morning, but was tired from staying up too late last night. Attempted to enter/stabilize first jhana, but monkey mind/sleepiness got the best of me. Ended with a pleasant somatic meditation from Reggie Ray (10 points practice, for anyone familiar with it) and some chi kung.

I did try to sit with eyes closed, so maybe the unfamiliar aspect of that coupled with my tiredness was too distracting. One thing I noticed was I could kind of turn on my visual field with the eyes closed, making the sense of my "inner landscape" (as Owen put it) much more easily apparent, giving me a kind of overall "feeling-view" of my body, like I was rewiring the inputs of the visual faculty or something. It wasn't a vision of the body per-se, it almost felt like I was getting (geek alert!) a heads-up display life in a first person shooter video game, but it kept flickering out.

But I couldn't keep that awareness going all that long, and would slip back into a normal eyes-closed mindstate rather quickly. It was definitely something I had to tune into to become aware of it.

Nothing else of note from this morning's sit. Last evening and while asleep last night, I did experience some stronger things (though I didn't, and usually don't, sit at night). Woke up early morning from a dream of flying bugs crawling around in my throat (7th nana?) that was very VERY real. Though more an interesting experience than anything all that miserable.

Rather than second path, I am adjusting my estimate to maybe being in a slower review stage, possibly due to my having glossing over the various nanas due to the "makyo" aspect of zen training (just a haphazed guess on my part).

Will see about maintaining that visual sense of the body (unless anyone recommends otherwise?) during this afternoon's sit. I've got coffee on my side at work, zing!

"Rather than second path, I am adjusting my estimate to maybe being in a slower review stage, possibly due to my having glossing over the various nanas due to the "makyo" aspect of zen training (just a haphazed guess on my part)."-IanReclus

Yes, Ian I like your approach here; we don't know what is going on with you yet. I might even suggest that we go back a bit further and not even assume 1st Path. I have been following your thread and I haven't seen any compelling evidence for stream entry.

My opinion, of course, does not change the reality one whit; it is what it is. Whatever progress you have made is yours to keep. And as time goes on, these things tend to become ever clearer. I confess to being completely clueless about where you are.

I'd like to suggest that we go back to first principles and see what shapes up out of the mist. We can put aside, for the moment, trying to figure out if you have attained stream entry, etc; I think we paint ourselves into a corner with that kind of approach.

Steady as she goes...

Keep up the excellent work and keep reporting your experience as simply as possible, without speculation, and the rest of us will give you some space to develop at your own pace.

Metta and mudita,

Kenneth

"we don't know what is going on with you yet. I might even suggest that we go back a bit further and not even assume 1st Path. "

Thanks for the feedback Kenneth. I'm with you on feeling completely lost as far as where I'm at. Been having experiences lately that put me all over the map. I've been considering asking if you had time to work with me, but I will be attending your weekly sessions at RSR, so I've been figuring to leave your skype time to those less fortunately located.

In any case, I realized that when I wrote up the brief history of my practice, I left out a couple of things. So, here's a short-as-possible summation of the important bits. Started meditating as a (nearly) daily practice in September 2008. This is after about a decade of flirting with meditation/spirituality, in a much more intellectualized manner, no steady practice and no instruction.

From September through July 2009, I kept up about an hour a day, nearly every morning. I'd been inspired by Dan Ingrams book and was all about getting it done, but had clicked best with my local zen group, so I was trying to haphazardly follow the Insight maps from a 3rd gear tradition. Got a bit confused, I'll admit, which was my main reason for coming here, once I got around to figuring out what this place is about.

In July 2009, I sat my first full week's sesshin, and around the 4th day had what has been the most amazing experience of my life. Got SUPER agitated during a dharma talk about how we're already dead, couldn't sit still during the evening meal that followed, and ran out to a graveyard (yeah, seriously) to sit. Something popped and all of a sudden I was pure consciousness, pouring out of me like light from a star. That "we all shine on" song by John Lennon (Instant Karma) made perfect sense to me.

(cont)

I told my zen instructor about it during dokusan and he said (essentially): that's great, you've started on the rollercoaster ride. Now don't put your hand out and grasp the first sign post along the road you come to. Depressed me at the time, but being shown that attitude has proven greatly helpful to me up to this point.

Both before that and after that, my life sucked, but i was going through a identity/future crisis and felt completely lost about what to do. This has long roots, so I won't go into detail, but suffice to say I probably wouldn't have been able to tell the dukkha nanas from what I was putting myself through. From there things get fuzzy, my practice lagged, only every few days.

Then I heard from a friend who supposedly found out he was third path. I didn't know what to think about that, but I was definitely very happy for him and he did seem really clear headed and at ease with things. In any case, it certainly kicked my practice back into high gear and right about that time, I met Kenneth at the first RSR talk. I started my journal hear and had that strange thing happen (comment 18 on this thread) and things have been way more wonky than usual since.

So, that's the extent of it, and why I am tentatively thinking what I'm thinking. : )

(on edit: to clarify/correct my feelings about the 3rd path attainment of my friend.)

And a quick note on my sit this afternoon. I tried doing the eyes closed thing again, but had not luck. Opened my eyes and made a resolution to reach first jhanna. Felt a kind of rushing feeling, like something was rising up in me but couldn't. It dropped back again.

Then I went into some other kind of different stuff that requires more explanation because its something I just picked up last night. I'm planning a writing up a new thread for it, but probably won't have time tonight because I'm filling in for a co-worker who's out today. I'm essentially two people. Does that count as bi-location? ; )

"I told my zen instructor about it during dokusan and he said (essentially): that's great, you've started on the rollercoaster ride. Now don't put your hand out and grasp the first sign post along the road you come to. Depressed me at the time, but being shown that attitude has proven greatly helpful to me up to this point." ~Ian

Nice! It looks like the Zen master knows how to spot an A&P event

Yup. I'd hazard a guess it was what's considered a kensho moment. Because it was damn intense. : ) Though I don't have anyone to back my up on that. Never felt comfortable asking.

(edit: was "similar to a kensho moment")

Work is kicking my ass today. Just dipping in to make a quick report.

Sat for 25 minutes this morning. Decided not to try any jhana work, just sit and follow the breath. Didn't even go so far as noting the breath, just lightly kept my attention on it. May have hit 1st jhanna in a few moments. Felt a pleasant sensation rise up through the body, but felt kind of tension/blockage of that feeling in the lower abdomen. I'd describe it as water flowing through a bunch of rocks (in the abdomen) and then flowing free upwards from just under the diaphragm.

The pleasantness seemed to relax the tension, but the tension kicked back in like a bad habit. I could feel it flux back and forth between the two. Wanted to sit longer, but had to leave to get to the office early.

I'm going to a friend's place on Long Island this weekend for a little break from the city. Hopefully the calm will allow my attention to settle and turn to this matter more fully.

Also, I'll be putting together some notes on a series body tension/anxiety/pain/release experiences that have been ongoing throughout my journey, that SEEM to be something independent of the insight stages (though I'll be the first to admit my understanding of the stages is not extensive). Once I have all the information together, I'll start a new thread, just to see if any one else has experienced anything similar.

"Yup. I'd hazard a guess it was what's considered a kensho moment. Because it was damn intense. : ) Though I don't have anyone to back my up on that. Never felt comfortable asking.

(edit: was "similar to a kensho moment")"

Current theory:
A&P = Kensho
Arhatship = Satori

Probably way too oversimplified.
If you listen to Suzuki Roshi, he talks about there not being any enlightened people, only enlightened activity. That always struck me.

Hey Owen... here is Alan Chapman's opinion on the link between the 10 ox herding pictures and the 4 path model... food for thought

www.thebaptistshead.co.uk/index.php?opti...iew&id=214&Itemid=31

Thanks for the link, Clayton.

I think Alan is correct is suggesting that the A&P event correlates to the 2nd ox herding picture. Seeing the bull, and thus seeing one's "original face," is kensho - the 3rd picture.

I think some of the other assumptions are off. I don't see how the 8th picture lines up with Nirodha Samapatti. For one, the Zen masters of hold ahorred states of absorption. Traditionally, NS is attained at the base of what some consider to be the pinacle of concentrative states (8th jhana). Therefore, contextually speaking, to suggest that a Zen master would consider a form of absorption to be the 8th stage of enlightened is kind of silly.

Second, "Ox and Self Transcended" does not imply the cessation of perception and feeling, and thus the cessation of consciousness. Rather, I think the 8th picture depicts the attainment of Maha Ati - pure, clear, unrestricted awareness. This, for me, is where arahantship enters the picture.

The meaning of the 9th and 10th pictures are debatable. I think they attempt to show the inseparability of Emptiness and form, as well as the expression of that form as a human being. That's just my opinion. I could very well be totally wrong.

~Jackson

(Edited for clarity.)
(Edited AGAIN due to errors. This was done after Ian's comment below.)

"

The pleasantness seemed to relax the tension, but the tension kicked back in like a bad habit. I could feel it flux back and forth between the two. Wanted to sit longer, but had to leave to get to the office early.

I'm going to a friend's place on Long Island this weekend for a little break from the city. Hopefully the calm will allow my attention to settle and turn to this matter more fully.

Also, I'll be putting together some notes on a series body tension/anxiety/pain/release experiences that have been ongoing throughout my journey, that SEEM to be something independent of the insight stages (though I'll be the first to admit my understanding of the stages is not extensive). Once I have all the information together, I'll start a new thread, just to see if any one else has experienced anything similar."

I keep reading this and something keeps bothering me.
Please take my comment with the understanding that I don't really know what I'm talking about but that I just have a really strong hunch, or instinct.
Anyway, this doesn't sound like vipassana really. Shouldn't you note an object and then disembed and then note the next one, whatever it is? A lot of this sounds like a lot of thinking about the objects, trying to draw conclusions about the objects, analyzing and reflecting on the objects, and, basically, identifying with them.
It seems like a lot of energy for ... what?

Just read the ox herding article. Shiny. Thanks!

Damn, this thread's as busy as I've been today.

@Owen: A&P -> Kensho I would agree with, though my understanding of what exactly differentiates kensho from makyo is limited. Satori I'm not sure would be the same as arhatship since Zen has the whole timeless relazation thing going on while arhatship doesn't. But they're both far enough out of my league that I know I don't know for sure. : )

@Clayton: thanks for the link. I'll have to read through that in detail later, but the whole BH site has been a great source of info for me. Though as Jackson points out, it is Alan's and Duncan's personal take on their experiences, so I value it as a record or journal of their path(s), not necessarily how mine would turn out.

@ Jackson: I'm with you on "seeing the ox" = A&P, since after that you're struggling with the ox (dukkha nanas), and then riding the ox (equanimity). Like Daniel says, after hitting the A&P, there's no going back and once you're on the ox, your on it until you forget it.

Perhaps "ox and self forgotten" is arhatship...? Then "return to the source" = maha ati, then back to the marketplace with open hands?

@ Mike: Actually, you're right on target there. I wasn't doing vipassana, and I wasn't making any effort at shamatha either. Just kind of resting in the breath (I wouldn't even say I was trying to rest in the breath) when the pleasantness bubbled up. My attention wasn't on trying to disembedd from anything this morning. : )

So, a lot of energy, perhaps, but no effort was made. That was the experiment.

Thanks for chiming in guys, I'm loving this discussion. Now, I'm off to catch the train to Long Island. Happy weekend!

Oh well, I don't think we connected on that one.
To be more direct:
Who cares about "a series body tension/anxiety/pain/release experiences that have been ongoing throughout my journey" - how is keeping track of that going to relieve your suffering?

"@ Jackson: I'm with you on 'seeing the ox' = A&P, since after that you're struggling with the ox (dukkha nanas), and then riding the ox (equanimity). Like Daniel says, after hitting the A&P, there's no going back and once you're on the ox, your on it until you forget it." ~Ian

I mixed up the pictures, and I apologize. I meant that the 2nd picture is correlated to the A&P, as it is sort of a "false awakening." I do NOT think that "seeing the Ox" is the A&P event. Seeing the Ox (the 3rd picture) is Kensho, and kensho is first awakening, akin to first path.

My interpretation is...

1st picture: suffering leads one to search for an answer.
2nd picture: A&P and through the dukkha ñanas; i.e. getting on the ride/path.
3rd picture: Stream-entry, kensho, first stage of awakening.
4th picture: Struggling to master the first stage, which leads to the next.
5th picture: roughly equivalent to 2nd path. Now you can relax a bit and just walk on.
6th picture: 3rd path, anagami. You see that it's carrying you, not the other way around.
7th picture: Late third path, surrender. You know where your home is.
8th picture: duality abolished, off the ride, arahantship, 4th path.
9th picture: Realizing that nature and emptiness are not two.
10th picture: Realizing that human choice/action, nature, and emptiness are non-contradictory/not separate; i.e. realizing the Trikaya - the full expression of "Just This."

Just my take on it.
Jackson

"Oh well, I don't think we connected on that one.
To be more direct:
Who cares about "a series body tension/anxiety/pain/release experiences that have been ongoing throughout my journey" - how is keeping track of that going to relieve your suffering? "

Well, fair enough. I guess we didn't, though you were right about it not being Vipassana.

Its not something I've been keepin track of all that much, but I've noticed a lot of physical experiences in the same area of the body, that seem to be repeated affected by my meditation practice, so I was wondering if anyone else had experienced anything similar, or could perhaps offer some advice. You seem to be the first to do so: "it doesn't matter, ignore it and disemebed" (if I'm understanding you correctly).

And in the end, I suppose you're right, it doesn't seem to fit into what's offered here. If anyone is interested, they can PM me to discuss.

"I mixed up the pictures, and I apologize. I meant that the 2nd picture is correlated to the A&P, as it is sort of a "false awakening." I do NOT think that "seeing the Ox" is the A&P event. Seeing the Ox (the 3rd picture) is Kensho, and kensho is first awakening, akin to first path."

Fair enough. That does make a lot more sense than the sort of running stab I took at it. Thanks for clarifying!

"Well, fair enough. I guess we didn't, though you were right about it not being Vipassana.

Its not something I've been keepin track of all that much, but I've noticed a lot of physical experiences in the same area of the body, that seem to be repeated affected by my meditation practice, so I was wondering if anyone else had experienced anything similar, or could perhaps offer some advice. You seem to be the first to do so: "it doesn't matter, ignore it and disemebed" (if I'm understanding you correctly).

And in the end, I suppose you're right, it doesn't seem to fit into what's offered here. If anyone is interested, they can PM me to discuss."

I hope I wasn't harsh or offensive I just hate the idea that you may be wasting some practice energy, that's all. I think you should feel free to talk all you want about it.

And for today's report:

Sat for 30 minutes today, rested in the body and watched/followed the breath. Seem to possibly be getting the hang of the first jhanna, being able to rest in a low hum of pleasure. This does seem to somehow be related to how much I am "in" my body as opposed to in my head. Just an observation, for what its worth.

Still need to watch those "guided tour of the jhanna" videos that Nick and Kenneth kindly put together. Haven't had the time to sit and really absorb them yet, but I am hoping they can help clarify things a bit.

"I hope I wasn't harsh or offensive I just hate the idea that you may be wasting some practice energy, that's all. I think you should feel free to talk all you want about it. "

Sorry, Mike. I did take that a bit too personally. I'm having a pretty stressful time at work lately and day-to-day life in general has been sucking. My psychic defenses are rather low at the moment. : )

But no, I see what you mean and I do appreciate your advice. I think I will write to Kenneth on that particular issue and see what he says. I do seem to have the feeling of not practicing correctly, but that feeling's dogged me through the last two years of whatever progress I have actually made, so I try not to take it TOO seriously. I am looking forward to working more closely with Kenneth at his teaching sessions at Rest Stop Rejuvenate in New Jersey hopefully that can help clarify a few things for me.

I'm also kind of re-thinking where I might be on the maps. I definitely had moments that felt like a blip, and after the first one, I definitely felt "different" but I still don't want to say stream entry. There's too much doubt in me, and everyone else's post-SE experience doesn't seem to be matching up with what I'm going through.

As for practice, I do not expect to have the chance today. I don't think I'll be able to get away from work for long enough and I was unable to get up to sit this morning. More tomorrow.

Sat for 30 minutes this morning. Focused on the breath in the lower abdomen and got a good concentration going for the first half. The whole jhana thing is beinnnning to kind of make sense to me now.

Then did noting practice for the second half. I got a some good steam going, noticed that the concentration I'd developed with the breath seemed to open up with each note I made, regardless of what the note was. Mainly "thinking" "tension" "coolness" and "vibrations", all very easy and for the most part pleasant.

After the alarm went off, I laid down on the couch to sleep. As I drifted off, I had another one of those "blip" moments that I've been thinking might be fruitions....? Coming out of that, I put my focus down into the body and again noticed some sort of congestion, this time in the lower abdomen. It carries a feeling of being chronic with it, like the works are "gummed up" or something. Letting go of that, I relaxed into the cool calm bliss and went to sleep. Woke up feeling very refreshed and light on my feet. Couldn't stop grinning. Strange how this always seems to come to me on the verge of sleep. This perhaps is reason to doubt its a fruition, if only because that hypnogagic state is so open to suggestion...?

I'd also be curious to know if any one (particularly those more familiar with the body sweeping technique) had anything similar to this sense of chronic congestion happen. This feeling that the energy pathways in different parts of my body are congested seems to make itself immediately apparent upon turning my attention inwards. I note "blocked" or "congested" and the feeling leaves but then comes back later or in future sits. I don't want to identify with this too much, but since it keeps coming up, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with (or advice on) something like this?