Kenneth's Experiment

I'm continuing with this for now, but with some of the recent posts I'm wondering if I should just give this up and go back to noting as much as possible. One problem is that I really don't know where I'm at on the developmental spectrum right now, and that's somewhat discouraging as I don't know what my goal is or a workable strategy for attaining it. Where as there is a clear method to this and the benefits are quite noticeable.

I think I may continue with it for the week and discuss a strategy for my current vipassana practice with Kenneth on Monday.

Kenneth, I asked a question of you that you have not yet answered. How do you compare your experience of direct perception mode to your previous experience of non-dual awareness?

Just curious...

It's been interesting to note the sense of efforting that has already come with choosing to participate in the experiment. The efforting comes from separating myself from experience in order to closely and consciously observe it. I'm going to go back to being in direct perception mode as much as possible as I prefer peace. If a "pod person possession" type of emotional experience comes up, I'll let you know. Based on the most recent occurence of this kind emotional flare (about a week ago), it would be pretty hard to miss!

I just want to add that I found the 1st gear practices absolutely essential in stabilizing and illuminating 3rd gear. I'd hit a plateau in practice that lasted for years and the the noting and jhanic arc riding through the paths opened everything up and explained some of the dead ends and confusion that had hindered the progess of my practice. I'm not the expert here, but my experience is that I absolutely needed all three gears to get to this point.

Someone needs to explain the terminology "pod person possession" to me, please. All; of a sudden emotions, qua emotions, are to be avoided (by some) and that seems to me to call into question a lot of the previous KFDh teachings. Maybe I'm not getting this. Maybe I'm not smart enough or advanced enough. Who knows? All of a sudden direct perception, aka the PCE, aka The Power of Now, aka whatever, is all the rage and our foundational teacher is talking about eliminating all suffering by grounding all emotion, and what appears to me to be a redefinition of "suffering" as a term is occurring here.

We spend hours and thousands of words here telling people to separate themselves from experience, btw. So I still believe we need to take some care with this and make sure folks understand where it fits into their own practice

You know, I never, ever, in a million years, thought I'd be the one poor dumba$ cautioning people about this

(Edited for clarity of language)

No I think you raise good points Chris

Clayton, thank you, but I hold out the distinct possibility that I could be very, very wrong.

In the end I'm not sure of anything and there is no place to plant the flag as far as I can see. Things just are what they are but it tales a lot of insight to find that out, to feel it in your bones. To someone who has been practicing their noting and working hard to get first path this probably looks very.... well, it's got to be sort of head-snapping, frankly. Than again, maybe I'm overplaying the need for caution. It would be nice to hear from some of those folks, though I suspect they might be a bit intimidated by this topic.

"
Someone needs to explain the terminology "pod person possession" to me, please."

I'd really like Kenneth to weigh in on this and all of the other questions we've raised in this thread, but in the mean time I've taken this term to mean being fully caught up in a solidifed emotional reaction after which there's a feeling of "wow, where did that blast of reactivity/identification come from?" I picked up the term from Kenneth's comment earlier in this thread because it really resonated with me. Kenneth said: " Surely it wasn't I who got so upset about such a trivial thing. It is as though I were taken over by some madness or briefly inhabited by some freaky pod person."

I don't reject the anger or desire or fear or whatever. I don't think any of it is bad. Actually, I think it's all pretty interesting and I'm fascinated by the whole range of experience, pleasant and unpleasant. I just don't want to feed any one part of it, because when I do, the flow of experience seems to change from liquid to solid, and some particular aspect of that flow of experience takes on a seemingly separate life of its own. I start to identify with it and as long as I'm caught up in that way, I'm no longer free and I feel separated from the peace that these days seems to be the context for all of experience. I like the freedom of being the flow better than the constriction of identification.

I really appreciate your cautioning, Chris, and I think you are right that whatever this is, it needs to be clarified and contextualized in order for the teachings to be helpful and effective. On the other hand, this forum, Kenneth and his teachings are living, breathing, growing entites and things are bound to change and keep changing and the question of where things fit will always be evolving, too.

Yes, change is the nature of things.

Naomi, I think a big part of what is nagging at me is based on terminology. What you just described sounds perfectly reasonable and desirable and squares with my experience.

"
Kenneth, I asked a question of you that you have not yet answered. How do you compare your experience of direct perception mode to your previous experience of non-dual awareness?

Just curious...

"

Yes for clarification's sake I think this is a great question! It is my impression, from having been more focused on Tibetan lineaged teachings, that within that context shamatha-vipassana, broadly termed "mind-training", occurs within a sort of 3rd gear umbrella. The lightning rod, toll booth, and sunspot metaphors are extremely reminiscent of shamatha instructions in that context IMO, especially the early stages of the same, based on my experience with those practices, particularly over the past six months. There is a marked build-up of life energy in the hara region which seems to increase in proportion to the stability of the bodily equanimity/grounding. Through this bodily-emotional reconditioning, in my experience, there is very natural opening into the "deeper" open awareness facet of unconditioned being-awareness.
The vipassana style process in this context actually involves instructions on re-stimulating the full range of emotional life even by intentionally provoking memories with strong charge in the sitting practice, and this phase works with seeing these full-blown high charge emotions as natural expressions of that openness which in no way are separated from the totally equanimous field discovered on a bodily level at the earlier shamatha phase. This is definitely possible in my experience.
Both shamatha and Vipassana as I've described them here are indeed effortful practices working with conditioned states within the deeper context of unconditioned timeless awareness and within the Tibetan traditions such as Dzogchen and Mahamudra they serve two purposes: discovering the natural state of nonduality of conditioned/unconditioned, and stabilizing that state, although they have benefit in themselves.

Indeed Chris, it seems that the PCE is very alluring. From the perspective of a PCE, "Pull up your pants and be a human," (Puypabah) probably seems like a silly, emotionally-charged taunt.

But I don't think that fear (or intimidation) is the proper response. Since if one's only "cycle-mode" response to the PCE (or its absence) is fear, i.e., if one only comes out of PCE to find that "on the other side" there is nothing but fear and aggression ("the freakish pod person"), then clearly the PCE mode is seen to be preferable. Daniel has indeed reported at some point, that going back to cycle mode has become, for him, something which he does not enjoy, wherein he feels fear of not being able to return:

quote: "Just the thought of making Cycle Mode return makes this PCE-enjoying Daniel cringe, in all honesty, as getting into PCE mode is such a strange thing, and [there is] fear is that it will not arise again",
(In dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...5#_19_message_602979 )

I myself have some foolish quotations on that same thread. I was very scared at the time of having no choice in the matter, that I would get unwillingly stuck into a PCE, when the whole reason I started the buddhism thing was because Daniel announced that the limited emotional range model was false.

I would suggest, and I have taken this course of action myself, that no-one here fears (or is intimidated by) anything in relation to the PCE, or its absence, ever again. If it happens, it happens; if it doesn't, it doesn't; if you get stuck in it, heck, by all accounts it's not bad at all.

This hopefully sanitises the discussion, and we can all, calmly and with enough time, decide what it all means and where this is going

I think this is a fascinating discussion that is evolving here, and I thought I'd put in my two cents as this style of practicing is what I've long been drawn to-- although only in the past six months particularly have I really begun to give in to it as a process. My intention in my last post isn't to plant a flag or challenge anyone or assert my own whatever, but rather to share a context for this experience that I have discovered in my own life and practice and which is rooted in an apparently stable more or less continuous contemplative tradition of multiple lineages stretching back at least 1500 years in Central Asia and India. My intent is to allay the legitimate concerns that this turn on the forum represents a straying into completely uncharted territory with potentially unknown consequences as well as to point out that what is being described here seems to have much much more well developed contexts in such traditions as chan, Mahamudra, Dzogchen as opposed to AF for example. A big difference between these mature traditions and AF is that in the former this "direct perception" style practice is squarely situated within a developmental framework that circles back to the full range of human emotivity and cognitivity, albeit at a higher level than our ordinary samsaric style of being shoved up into it or else liberated "from" it a la 4th path as the rider of the wave.

"

To someone who has been practicing their noting and working hard to get first path this probably looks very.... well, it's got to be sort of head-snapping, frankly. Than again, maybe I'm overplaying the need for caution. It would be nice to hear from some of those folks, though I suspect they might be a bit intimidated by this topic.

"

This place has been so important to me for for a while now in a way that nothing else could, you know?
So, it is weird for me to have such a gut "put off" kind of reaction to this topic. But, it's true. I'm willing to let it all happen inside and out and see how it all changes.

This has shown me that I have a pretty clear vision of "enlightenment." One of the main features of that vision is that there is no vision. No fixed view. No agenda. I'm willing to let emotions rip through my body 24 x 7; I'm willing to have no emotions. I'm willing to be excited by events and activities and projects and I'm willing to despair for myself and the world. I'm ready for anything and nothing. To me suffering isn't feeling something -- suffering is fighting against, rejecting, not allowing whatever is happening to happen.
For me (and I really mean just for me) the idea of setting up in my mind certain preferred states of mind and experiences and awareness and then doing stuff to try to make my life match all that -- is just not how I want to live.

It's a subtle difference. I admit that I love having emotions. I actually have more of them - bigger, stronger and more complete since path and this has made me feel so alive, intimate. The idea of being attracted to shapes and colors doesn't interest me, though if it happened temporarily as a by-product of pratice it might be cool I guess.

Maybe I've missed something? Maybe I've gotten the wrong idea of this and I'm giving my thoughts about that wrong idea?

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. To me the practice seems to entail keeping awareness (i.e. being aware) of emotions as they rise in the body (perhaps emotion is the wrong word - perhaps stress would be a better term - and it seems to be a biological thing - chemical changes, perhaps, in response to the interior and exterior environment). Not paying attention to this causes certain mind states to arise and then you notice those. So, to me I'm not seeing how this is somehow manipulating your experience any more than noting mind states that have already arisen is.

By paying attention to these things before they become full blow emotions and things like that you are seeing the process of the formation of these things and so the mind doesn't lean for some reason.

Isn't that what the 12-fold chain of dependent origination is all about? In this case, ignoring the proto-emotions leads to full blown mind-states (unless one has completed developmental enlightenment which also cuts off this ignorance).

Ignorance -> Fabrications -> Consciousness -> Name-and-form -> Six sense media -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Becoming -> Birth

The developmental path seems to be the way to see through the ignorance in a permanent way. Perhaps this is a way to cut it off (at least momentarily) by actively preventing the ignorance by paying attention. If it stabilizes at some point, perhaps it is really a direct path to enlightenment.

From the remainderless fading and cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of (volitional) fabrications. From the cessation of (volitional) fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering.

In this case I am thinking that it isn't the literal turning off of the six sense media, but rather the ending in the belief of the world being split up into those things rather than being a constant flow.

Ignorance of the proto-emotion -> causes the mind to lean -> which leads to thinking -> which leads to the idea of name and form (in something that isn't split up that way really) -> the experience is divided up into parts (hearing, seeing, mind, etc - it really isn't that way) -> this leads to the idea of contact with the external world (rather than this just being a single experience, I must be looking at the world, hearing it, etc.) -> The world is split up into a series of separate sensations (rather than a single experience of suchness) -> This leads to craving and clinging to the ones we like -> which causes us to become a person so that we can seek these things out -> which leads to birth (mumuwu here!)

I'm probably a very confused person (and wrong)...

"The direct mode of experience I am cultivating at this moment feels undivided and whole."

Kenneth: to me what you and Eckhart describe is Dzogchen. Naked awarness, direct perception. Nothing needs to be changed, as it is, etc.

The lighting Rod in Tibetan Buddhism is "Yeshe". Translation of Yeshe is hard. Some translate it as "Wisdom", others as "Knowing". In sanskrit Yeshe is Jñana (no to be confused with the jñanas). My translation of the term would be: "Supreme Wisdom that knows what to do (with all negativity)". Making Yeshe omnipresent is the practice of a Bodhisattva.

According to this bodhisattva training, the end of anger and similar negative feelings is possible. What remains is loving kindness, compassion, equanimity, etc. All these qualities make Bodhicitta: or awakened mind, but not just awakened in the sense of knowing the true nature of reality (i.e. that its empty), but a very positive and compassionate awakened mind.

The end of anger (permanently), within Tibetan Buddhism, is Buddhahood. This is to be exactly like the Buddha. No anger whatsover towards beings ever again.

Before this one travels through the 10 Bhumis. In one of the bhumis (I think 7th or 8th) it is said that anger does not arise even if another person is doing great harm (even physical harm) to oneself. This is not a neglection of anger. Friendliness and love cannot stop ceasing.

After the 10th bhumi, one becomes a Buddha. Direct perception, naked awareness remains, and one is able to work cognitively with no problems whatsoever, for the benefit of every single being.

Oh, also, a being like this does not have any sense of existence (no 2nd or 1st gear).

Would his be the same jnana that jnani's like nisargadatta were expounding?

While waiting for my next flight at SFO. Let me try to be clear - I have no trouble getting into direct perception mode. I'm not afraid of it. I'm curious about it and I'm not sure I notice much difference between what I've been practicing today (that) and a lot of other experiences I've had

Mumuwu, you are on track, I think, by asking about the relationship of this to dependent origination. It struck me on the plane while practicing this that it's some form of interruption in that process. And of course it is! But so, I think, are other things I know - just seeing what's going on clearly, for example, seems to drain energy from the usual processes that cause ignorance and suffering.

And again, we need to agree on terminology and define things more clearly or we're going to get lost in the forest of the flow of experience

Gotta go!

"
While waiting for my next flight at SFO. Let me try to be clear - I have no trouble getting into direct perception mode. I'm not afraid of it. I'm curious about it and I'm not sure I notice much difference between what I've been practicing today (that) and a lot of other experiences I've had

Mumuwu, you are on track, I think, by asking about the relationship of this to dependent origination. It struck me on the plane while practicing this that it's some form of interruption in that process. And of course it is! But so, I think, are other things I know - just seeing what's going on clearly, for example, seems to drain energy from the usual processes that cause ignorance and suffering.

And again, we need to agree on terminology and define things more clearly or we're going to get lost in the forest of the flow of experience

Gotta go!

"

I know that flight you are getting on! small prop plane -- as soon as you ascend the pilot will begin his descent! Blink and you miss the whole thing.

Okay. I won't blink!

"
Okay. I won't blink!

"

I believe it is the most direct route.

"Would his be the same jnana that jnani's like nisargadatta were expounding? "

I have no idea =/ I haven't really studied Nisargadatta's teachings

"My intent is to allay the legitimate concerns that this turn on the forum represents a straying into completely uncharted territory with potentially unknown consequences as well as to point out that what is being described here seems to have much much more well developed contexts in such traditions as chan, Mahamudra, Dzogchen as opposed to AF for example. A big difference between these mature traditions and AF is that in the former this "direct perception" style practice is squarely situated within a developmental framework that circles back to the full range of human emotivity and cognitivity, albeit at a higher level than our ordinary samsaric style of being shoved up into it or else liberated "from" it a la 4th path as the rider of the wave."

Anger, grief, craving are the fruit.

This direct naked perception is the infinitesimal occurance of
- The three trainings (morality, concentration and wisdom)
- 12 links
- impermanence
- Reality

It is the infinitesimal occurance of many more things.

No wonder Dzogchen means the Great Perfection

Cmarti, I think you are bringing out something very important.

This interrupts that process. The question I am having now is whether or not by doing this on a daily basis, the roots of ignorance are worked on (As they are by going through the 4 paths).

So, by seeing how the body/mind wants to react in various situations, but cutting it off, and then seeing how by cutting it off there is peace, does the body/mind get reconditioned so that there is less and less ignorance (or does one merely cling to this process like one would cling to, say, heroin - e.g. reports of folks entering into cycling mode and not enjoying it).

Similarly, does the no-self experience that this practice tends to lead to impart wisdom about selflessness and lead to awakening/enlightenment?

Will working at this level have a permanent effect on the 12-fold chain, or is it merely a trick which allows one to cut it off at a certain point?

I know that doing similar work several years ago helped me to break a lot of the emotion/thinking conditioning I had which was causing a lot of stress (by paying attention to the emotions as they arose in my chest and just experiencing them at that level)

Only one way to find out I suppose...

I have been in and out of direct mode these past few days. I am not as disciplined as some because I've had to work my arse off this week. But suffice to say, I am less reactive. I am actually noticing that I am being extra nice and compassionate to my fiancee. I am dealing with A LOT of previously stressful situations but the mind really is still and unperturbed. I notice these "proto-blobs" arising as mental reactions to a particular sensation all day long. In fact I've been doing this practice for years. In the Goenka tradition , one sweeps the body and keepsthe sweeping constant. I found out early on that Goenka's teacher U Ba Khin taught his students to centre all their attention at the heart chakra spot and be aware of anicca there for long periods. I was a Dhamma rebel so i started doing that all the time. I sat course after course with my attention resting there all the time and at times shifting to the throat. I noticed a hell of a lot of particular unpleasant sensations there. I got used to them being there bubbling and spitting. When i reacted in an unpleasant way verbally or mentally I was well aware where that reaction was being triggered from. My mind stayed there for years. I got angry, and the mind fell on the chest and saw the flow of unpleasant vibrations there. The metnal reactivity would cease, and concentration would increas as well as peace of mind. I always experienced an anchoring of the mind there and an ability to not react to those sensations was developed to a high level.

I just did it without telling anyone. And I think that really got my concentration ramped up, as I was not distracted to react to those sensations with thought patterns and mind states. I was practicing the direct mode for years until i switched to noting. And when i did that, I took off and got SE pretty quickly.

It is a great tool to avoid causing yourself to multiply negative habit patterns. I know I changed a lot of my reactive patterns over the 9 years I did this.

Anyway, Im taking myself out of the contest, as my default state is very meh!...even out of direct mode. I think having just done a number of days doing the whole nirodha samapatti/rigpa combo and now this direct mode has made my default mode extremely relaxed. We'll see how this plays out. I'm all for exploring things.

Nick