Cut to the chase

Kenneth,

Thanks for your reply! It's very helpful.

This is my favorite post by Kenneth and it changed my practice and my life.
Read the initial posts if you haven't yet.

"This is my favorite post by Kenneth and it changed my practice and my life.
Read the initial posts if you haven't yet. "


Thank you, Mike, for putting this thread back on the radar screen. It is extraordinarily valuable.

- Ryan

So nice to read that again... thanks for bumping this one Mike...

Very hard hitting stuff on Equanimity! Nice! Thanks a lot

so with thinking like this, its like it also points out how its important that one understands, uses, or in what context to apply (or not apply) the teachings of the 7 factors for enlightenment and the 5 strengths, or the equation of Shinzen Young that its just Equanimity + Awareness.

This will save me too a lot of guilt-tripping

Also if I'm not mistaken, there's a difference between Equanimity Nana, which is tied to a specific strata of mind, and equanimity as Shinzen speaks of it, which is just non-reactive awareness. Regardless of which strata you are in, or what thoughts, emotions and sensations are happening, it's possible to notice this non-reactively. A reactive mind movement of aversion or grasping could be the object of non-reactive awareness.
If I'm not very much mistaken, the principle of noting practice is precisely this- to cultivate the habit of simply noticing what is arising and to leave it at that- just noticing, just noticing. This kind of "equanimity" is available all the time, in any state or strata, and is different from 11th Nana, Knowledge of Equanimity.

Interestingly enough...what you've mentioned (in part) & what msj123 spoke of is exactly what super-charged my progress.

I've found that the Sri Lankan forest meditation system worked really well for me. (The only Mahasi derivative I've found that works as good as, if not...dare I say...a *tad* better than Kenneth's modifications ) It starts with 6 notes, based on the sense bases, and narrows it down at each stage until you are noting REALLY fast.

At that point, the standard technique is to use only one word for noting: "contact".

The A&P begins to happen faster & faster , clearer & clearer, and the one approaches the "edge of the vortex" (i.e. cessation) by simply noting "contact contact".

This method catapulted me past stream-entry to 2nd Path in no time flat.

I cannot recommend enough the need to cut the vocabulary shorter & shorter as you progress. And for those that find the Four Foundations' classification a bit too clumsy, I can say from experience that simply using the six sense bases (+ "feeling" for any emotion or tactile sensation) works equally well.

The idea is not to be super-descriptive...as this leads to attachment. The idea to to vaguely acknowledge the sensation & let it go AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. The longer you hold it, the less good it does you.

With metta...

Brian, do you have a reference for this Sri Lankan technique, or would you elaborate on it?

"Brian, do you have a reference for this Sri Lankan technique, or would you elaborate on it?"

Sure. A thorough, yet no-so-easy-read, can be found here:
nibbanam.com/nibbana_guide_en.htm

The "Kenneth" of the Nanarama System (this Mahasi derivative we speak of) is named Lennart & runs this blog:
theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/adva...systematic-approach/

His teaching ability & clarity in understanding your practice rivals Kenneth, but he's less into the Advaita / Materialistic perspectives towards things. No dogma either, mind you...he just tends to have very good explanation for certain Budddhist beliefs & wanrs against tossing them aside too quickly.

Kenneth is an awesome teacher, really great. However, I believe the noting technique is a bit cumbersome. The Sri Lankans tweaked quite a few things & as far as I can see everything changed for the better. Whereas I made good progress under Kenneth, I made unbelievable progress under Lennart.

The incorporation of more jhana practice really helps, coupled with a more streamlined noting method.

As you can read in the link above, the noting starts with the six sense bases. Only 6 notes: image, feeling (for anything inside the body, be it physical mental), odor/smell, sound, thought, taste.

After a while, once one notice the "act" of perceiving these objects, one switches to 4 notes only: seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking.

When one gets deep into A&P, the noting it shortened to one word: "contact".

When noting something, you are usually advised to note it twice, as this helps to release it easier.

The whole idea behind this is that the noting itself has no real purpose. What gets you ahead is letting go of each sensation before you become attached.

This is very interesting. I have found a natural tendancy for noting to get simpler and simpler as i progress.

"This is very interesting. I have found a natural tendancy for noting to get simpler and simpler as i progress."

That is exactly what you should be doing...don't fight the tendency.

I start with Kenneth's version of the Four Foundations...once I escape the "narrative mode"--of "me" "sitting here meditating & living out my life in this universe"--to the phenomenological mode of A&P, I switch to 4 notes of seeing/hearing/feeling/thinking.

Once things speed up, it simply becomes "contact contact". The idea is to note & release AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

These simple instructions allowed me to go from stream-entry to 2nd Path in 15 days flat. (2 hours a night...no retreat setting).

I'm not one to say one method is better than another in absolute terms. As you've read on this site, there are plenty of people that were stuck in place before meeting Kenneth. Just don't forget that there are also people that get stuck on Kenneth's method & find progress with another teacher.

It is often true when Kenneth says "The reason these other teachers keep saying they are not enlightened is because they are not...". However, there are also a lot of other teacher at Kenneth's level that don't advertise their attainment.

(This is not a knock on Kenneth...he isn't arrogant, but simply tries to convince the world that they CAN do it if they try.)

In fact, when I speak of Kenneth, I always say this: "He taught me a lot of good technique, but that is all miniscule when compared to what he really taught me--that I COULD DO IT. He gave me faith in myself that I could actually achieve the goal if I earnestly practiced."

This is how I view this site. It is not a group of people that agree with Kenneth on every point, but a group that believes in earnest practice leads to the goal.

Hi Brian,
I am interested in the four notes you mentioned which I will have a look at. I've never been a big noter myself, I'm more a breather but I do notice, ha, ha, that at the moment I note by simple awareness of events arising in the mind. Congratulations by the way on your great progress. Just a simple observation, not detracting from your attainment....I like you attained to second path very quickly after stream entry without doing a retreat or altering my routine in any spectacular way....but I discovered afterward that this quick step from 1st to 2nd path is not all that uncommon. Getting from 2nd to third though took longer and was so unbelievably different from the experiences of first two paths. Also, I am like you....realizing that an ordinary bloke like me could get enlightenment and that it is really very real was a tectonic frame shift in my relationship to practice. This occurred only after I bumped into both Daniel and then Kenneth.

"...but I discovered afterward that this quick step from 1st to 2nd path is not all that uncommon. "

Yes... momentum, rather than time, seems to be the key to it.

Oddly, enough...in the Sri Lankan system as well as others...for those that swing quickly into 2nd Path, 3rd Path is much longer coming. (Important to note that I am referring to "3rd Path" as defined by certain Mahasi derivatives such as Kenneth & Daniel's approach/philosophy...this being the point where many other begin to disagree with what is & isn't "Anagami" & "Arahantship".)

But, quite often those that change things up & really lay a solid foundation of jhana & certain discernment skills/practices directly after stream-entry (typically, not always) take longer to get to 2nd Path, but attain Mahasi 3rd Path & Mahasi Arahantship quicker overall.

I'm really into meditation theory & I've been spending leisure time researching the possible causes for this.

On a side note, it is interesting to see these differing views on Arahantship are clearly why some Mahayana schools split off from the original Sangha. I really enjoy digging deeper into both sides' arguments & seeing how it applies to present day conflicts of view/opinion.

Hi Brian,

I would intersted in hearing about your theorys on the differences as I am curious about such things too. By the way 4th path often refered to hear and the DhO, is not the end of the journey. See Kenneth's revised map of awakening: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4354442/4th+Pathers+Unite !

"There are two distinct attainments that come after 4th Path as we define it in this community. One is the transformation of the emotions and the other is the end of self referencing. I assert this from my own very recent experience, so I have not yet amended the maps published here to include this information. But I am already teaching it to my advanced students.

The two attainments I am referring to are natural, organic changes that follow 4th Path. In other words, just as 2nd Path follows 1st and just as 3rd Path follows 2nd, etc., these two attainments are a natural consequence of continuing to practice post-4th Path. None of this changes the map up to 4th Path, it just adds to it. Think of it as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree black belt.

One way to model all of this together is to nest the technical 4 Path model within the ten fetters model. If you then add the A&P as the first stage (thanks Owen for the A&P suggestion), you get a detailed and comprehensive map of awakening in 7 stages. This avoids the weaknesses of both the technical model (ends too soon) and the ten fetters model (lack of detail). The KFDh map of the Seven Stages of Enlightenment looks like this:

1) A&P
2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction

The emotional transformation means that you no longer glom together a specific set of mental and physical phenomena, invest it with self and call it an emotion. The information still comes in the form of raw materials (5 physical senses and mental impressions) but is no longer mistaken for a "thing" called my emotion.

The end of self-contraction is similar, but more subtle: the group of phenomena that was previously seen as the "I" is no longer recognized as "I". There is only object." Kenneth Folk

""He taught me a lot of good technique, but that is all miniscule when compared to what he really taught me--that I COULD DO IT. He gave me faith in myself that I could actually achieve the goal if I earnestly practiced.""

WORD. This was a jewel beyond price for me as well.

"Oddly, enough...in the Sri Lankan system as well as others...for those that swing quickly into 2nd Path, 3rd Path is much longer coming. (Important to note that I am referring to "3rd Path" as defined by certain Mahasi derivatives such as Kenneth & Daniel's approach/philosophy...this being the point where many other begin to disagree with what is & isn't "Anagami" & "Arahantship".)

But, quite often those that change things up & really lay a solid foundation of jhana & certain discernment skills/practices directly after stream-entry (typically, not always) take longer to get to 2nd Path, but attain Mahasi 3rd Path & Mahasi Arahantship quicker overall. "

That is really interesting Brian, thanks for posting!

"Sure. A thorough, yet no-so-easy-read, can be found here:
nibbanam.com/nibbana_guide_en.htm

The "Kenneth" of the Nanarama System (this Mahasi derivative we speak of) is named Lennart & runs this blog:
theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/adva...systematic-approach/


"

Hi!
For me, I don't have the patience to wade through all the references to pali scriptures and yada yada (I appreciate that it is there for those that are into it).

I really like Kenneth's pretty concise guides to "do this". Something I can sit down and apply now.
Even though I myself have sometimes needed more clarification and have asked here in the forums.
Therefore I like how you summarized the method in your post, so I don't have to try to find the info in those pages you referred to.

However, there seems to be a debate about fast vs. not so fast noting and the specificity of the notes used.
That is kind of interesting in itself.
Is one way more correct? Faster? Or is it up to the individual which one fits?

"Hi!
For me, I don't have the patience to wade through all the references to pali scriptures and yada yada (I appreciate that it is there for those that are into it).

I really like Kenneth's pretty concise guides to "do this". Something I can sit down and apply now.
Even though I myself have sometimes needed more clarification and have asked here in the forums.
Therefore I like how you summarized the method in your post, so I don't have to try to find the info in those pages you referred to.

However, there seems to be a debate about fast vs. not so fast noting and the specificity of the notes used.
That is kind of interesting in itself.
Is one way more correct? Faster? Or is it up to the individual which one fits?

"

As for slow vs. fast...the Sri Lankans will tell you fast is better (so as not to identify), those that can effectively use the slower method as taught by Kenneth usually say it works better. IMHO, both work equally as well. In fact, I practice both ways...and depending upon my state of mind I'll use whichever works for me best at a certain time.

"Hi!
For me, I don't have the patience to wade through all the references to pali scriptures and yada yada (I appreciate that it is there for those that are into it).

I really like Kenneth's pretty concise guides to "do this". Something I can sit down and apply now.
Even though I myself have sometimes needed more clarification and have asked here in the forums.
Therefore I like how you summarized the method in your post, so I don't have to try to find the info in those pages you referred to.

However, there seems to be a debate about fast vs. not so fast noting and the specificity of the notes used.
That is kind of interesting in itself.
Is one way more correct? Faster? Or is it up to the individual which one fits?

"

Regarding the Pali...I'm actually quite good at translating Pali. In fact, I've been studying it for quite some time. It is actually a very simple language.

One thing I've found is that most all translations of the Pali scriptures have been made by non-meditators. When translating the original Pali as a meditator, you pick up a lot of things others have missed. Take, for instance, noting. Some say noting is a bad idea because you pay less attention to the actual experience & too much attention to the noting itself.

While I understand the theory behind the point made--and agree that "on paper" it sounds very convincing--I vehemently disagree. If you look at the various methods of meditation, those that note early on (it doesn't have to be maintained at later stages) produce the best results.

Furthermore, when re-translating the scripture through the eyes of a meditator, there are a lot of passages (particularly in the Anguttara) that speak of technique that could easily be construed as the "noting" taught in Mahasi derivatives.

Just thought you might find that interesting.

Thanks for your response in a user-friendly way.
I guess I like to have the executive summary available

This an interesting conversation and I'd like to jump in and say that noting does have a sort of point of diminishing returns, where it takes up more cognitive bandwidth than it helps you to free up.

Kenneth gave me the instruction to stop noting in High Equanimity and just attend to the process silently like a "cat watching for a mouse", where the mouse is any thought that might arise and disrupt the progress. That really helped. So, in my experience, noting is like a big powerful rocket booster. It gets you into high orbit, but it needs to be jettisoned to keep climbing.

"This an interesting conversation and I'd like to jump in and say that noting does have a sort of point of diminishing returns, where it takes up more cognitive bandwidth than it helps you to free up.

Kenneth gave me the instruction to stop noting in High Equanimity and just attend to the process silently like a "cat watching for a mouse", where the mouse is any thought that might arise and disrupt the progress. That really helped. So, in my experience, noting is like a big powerful rocket booster. It gets you into high orbit, but it needs to be jettisoned to keep climbing."

Nicely put, Ron.

I think most systems employ this "letting go". One thing I particularly like about the Nanarama system is the progessive approach of dropping to fewer & fewer notes until you have only one...and then dropping it all together.

For me, personally, this helped a lot.

Even before I switched from Kenneth's version of Mahasi to Nanarama's, I found that I naturally stopped noting--and began "noticing"--without even being instructed.

As you say, it loses its positive effect and becomes cumbersome...and my mind was naturally inclined to drop the notes so that more focus/energy could be placed into experiencing the object(s).

I know this is a "Buddhist-Style Meditation" site and not "Meditation site for Buddhists", but I thought a reference to some parts of the scriptures might still be appropriate.

For those interested in seeing how some of the meditation instruction given by Lord Buddha were (inadvertently) omitted in the current English translations of the Pali Canon, this might be of interest to you:

theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/iti-and-sallakkheti/

This is more or less an elaboration of what I was speaking of in my previous post...when I mentioned that the scholars doing the translation weren't avid meditators & therefore, did not quite "get" what was being said.

I hope a few of you find it interesting...

Regarding the sri lankan method.
Do you note aloud?
No following of the breath or such?
Also, how do you go about noting or keeping awareness going in between formal sits?
And when tasks are intellectually demanding?
Thanks, brian!