Cut to the chase

I could never do noting practice properly, a la the Mahasi method. The noting seemed to get in the way of the noticing. The noticing is what matters. So I would do pretty much what Daniel Ingram suggests (in re "dat") or do nothing overt at all, just notice, more or less like reading the words on a printed page as I watched the object arise and pass away. Don't get bound up in a particular technique. We all have a sweet spot when it comes to the technique. Find yours, and...

JUST DO IT!

"
I could never do noting practice properly, a la the Mahasi method. The noting seemed to get in the way of the noticing. The noticing is what matters. So I would do pretty much what Daniel Ingram suggests (in re "dat") or do nothing overt at all, just notice, more or less like reading the words on a printed page as I watched the object arise and pass away. Don't get bound up in a particular technique. We all have a sweet spot when it comes to the technique. Find yours, and...

JUST DO IT!

"

Thank you.

"All answers are contained in this fathom-long body" or however it goes.

I forget that one at times. Try the pants on before you buy them, but don't waste your whole life trying on pants. Find a pair that fits decently, then buy them, walk out the store, and get on with living.

BTW - I'm still in the dressing room, with my counting-to-ten-breath-awareness underwear on, but I think these noting pants are going to fit pretty good.

Excellent - this addresses my questions about noting too - I've done a lot of just sitting / choiceless awareness type practice over the last 15 years or so and the speed with which arisings are noticed pretty well makes any attempt at noting seem very clunky. I don't want to dismiss anything which might genuinely help my practice, but noting in the classic Mahasi way doesn't seem to quite cut the mustard. Still, I'm open to persuasion ...

"Excellent - this addresses my questions about noting too - I've done a lot of just sitting / choiceless awareness type practice over the last 15 years or so and the speed with which arisings are noticed pretty well makes any attempt at noting seem very clunky. I don't want to dismiss anything which might genuinely help my practice, but noting in the classic Mahasi way doesn't seem to quite cut the mustard. Still, I'm open to persuasion ... "

Are you aware of the subtle mind states like, boredom, confusion, anticipation, intention, satisfaction, curiosity, the feelings of "I", the images of "I" blipping in and out rapidly?

I found with just bare awareness, I was missing these. When I started noting, these started becoming objectified more and more. Especially, the sensations and images that were read as "I".

""...every moment you spend making love to ideas is a moment that you could be doing the practice that leads to developmental enlightenment.""

This should be attached to my forehead on a Post-It note.

Apologies for cross-posting, but this epic meditation FAIL is just so apropos to this thread too:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...+no+spoon?offset=101

"Do you understand the point I'm trying to make? I'm not telling you that View is not important. I'm not interested in bashing other teachers for the sake of bashing or for self-promotion. I'm telling you that every moment you spend making love to ideas is a moment that you could be doing the practice that leads to developmental enlightenment."

Yes!

It is clear that you are not downplaying the importance of View, but rather asserting that merely adopting a new way of translating our experience is not enough to bring about any profound measure of transformation. To truly transform, we must practice, and practice well.

Thank you, as always, for teaching us how to practice well.
~Jackson

"The point is, there are a million reasons not to practice, so why not just jump in and do what you can? "

That's a good point. It's just that to do the same thing over and over expecting different resuts if the very definition of insanity. Like cmarti also mentioned, noting practice doesn't really work for me too well (try as I might, and indeed try as I have). It's not a shortcoming of the practice and it's not a shortfall of the amount of time or effort I'm putting into it; rather it's just I've never seen this particular practice taught in a way that works for me.

I appreciate the comments though, and also Nic M, you magnificent so-and-so! I'll give that list a close look. Look's like something to build on, but if it doesn't work out I'll just keep at it until I find something that does work. Like Chris says, I'm just lookin for the sweet spot; I'm not looking for excuses. In a way I am very embarrassed that despite a hearty effort I haven't attained a path, but I know I am capible of it, and I will JUST DO IT.

"That's a good point. It's just that to do the same thing over and over expecting different resuts if the very definition of insanity."

Well... not exactly.

Any serious study of skill development will reveal that mastery of a skill is hardly ever achieved as if climbing steadily up a hill. One usually starts of at a plateau period, and then later experiences a quantum leap in skill, followed by yet another plateau period. Continuing to practice the same thing over, and over, and over again is not insanity. It's how one develops mastery.

Too many people give up on a trying to develop a skill because they can't muster up enough determination to keep going while nothing seems to be happening at all. Whether in sports or in meditation, it works the same way.

~Jackson

"Well... not exactly.

Any serious study of skill development will reveal that mastery of a skill is hardly ever achieved as if climbing steadily up a hill. One usually starts of at a plateau period, and then later experiences a quantum leap in skill, followed by yet another plateau period. Continuing to practice the same thing over, and over, and over again is not insanity. It's how one develops mastery.

Too many people give up on a trying to develop a skill because they can't muster up enough determination to keep going while nothing seems to be happening at all. Whether in sports or in meditation, it works the same way.

~Jackson"

I think that insanity saying works for things like addiction -- someone keeps getting drunk and having blackouts and going to jail, etc and then drinks again and expects something good to happen this time.
When it is transfered over to learning a positive skill it doesn't really work, don't you think.
Plus, I bet it's not actually the "definition" of insanity

"I think that insanity saying works for things like addiction -- someone keeps getting drunk and having blackouts and going to jail, etc and then drinks again and expects something good to happen this time.
When it is transfered over to learning a positive skill it doesn't really work, don't you think.
Plus, I bet it's not actually the "definition" of insanity "

Yeah, that's right. Karma works both ways. We can get into good habits that produce good results, or bad habits that produce bad results. Sometimes, whether positive or negative behaviors are being employed, the results take time. So, in my opinion, the saying is misleading.

Regarding "insanity" - it's actually not a term used in the mental health profession at all. Psychologists/psychiatrists speak of having or not having mental health, not about sanity and insanity.

"Insanity" is used almost exclusively in court settings (that, and as a colloquialism used in non-professional communication). The same is true of "alcoholism", which is not a term used often in Psychology. Rather, they speak of substance abuse and substance dependence. It's a different world.

~Jackson

If I were the Benevolent Prince of the World, I would gently insist that all yogis master the Mahasi noting technique, including those who find it difficult or cumbersome. It's like playing scales on a piano: it's only difficult or cumbersome until it is mastered. After that, it's delightful. And although some gifted musicians might achieve high levels of proficiency even without mastering the fundamentals, most will not. What's more, there is no one who does not benefit from building a firm foundation. Once mastered, scales are no longer seen as something separate from performance; all of the skills come together seamlessly as music.

People who don't or won't master the fundamentals of meditation practice may reach high levels of enlightenment, but they will always find themselves having to work around the holes in their foundation. It is so worth the trouble to go back and fill those holes or (in the case of beginning meditators) to build firmly from the ground up.

Kenneth

Nic_M, thanks for the comprehensive list of noting words in post 23. Wonderful!

Everyone, thanks for understanding, refining, and clarifying the point I hoped to make in the head post of this thread.

Kenneth

"If I were the Benevolent Prince of the World, I would gently insist that all yogis master the Mahasi noting technique, including those who find it difficult or cumbersome."

As Astro on the Jetsons used to say, "Ruh Roh!"

"When it is transfered over to learning a positive skill it doesn't really work, don't you think.
"

Oi, for heaven sake MM & hipster! Just to be clear here, as different people learn in different ways; I am looking to develop the basic skills, but do it in a way that works easily for me. Learning to play the panio is a good analogy.

If I was learning the piano and after a long amount of trial and effort I discovered that the Suziki method didn't seem to work for me, I could try the Faber method, I could try the Sounder method, etc, etc. Playing panio could be the greatest thing in the world, but if it's not taught in a way that's suits the capacity of the student ,then the learning of it will be unnecessarily slow and awkward; even if the student REALLY WANTS TO LEARN.

Similarly, noting practice could be the greatest practice in the dharma universe, but if it's not taught in away that suits the predilections of the student, well you get the picture...

But if Kenneth says Mahasi method builds a good foundation, and you guys all support it too, I'll stick with it.

Maybe my problem is a unique one, because of epic samantha practice over many years I have this kalinkha samadhi thing happenin bigtime, so when I do the Mahasi method of clasification I feel like I am trying to merge onto a freeway with cars and semis wizzing by bumper-to-bumper at a 100mph, and it's my task to get in behind each vehicle and see which state each licence plate comes from. To deal with this it's my instinct to get a list of the state names and memorize them first so I can pick out each one at a glance.

I hope it works, if not back to the drawing board. I'm glad that what ever is working for you is working, but for a multitude of valid reasons some of us don't find the Mahasi method so easy to do. It ain't for a lack of wanting to learn though, or for lack of trying.

"Oi, for heaven sake MM & hipster! "

Ha, ha!

I wasn't really advocating Mahasi noting in my comment (though, I do think it's a great technique, and it's worked very well for me). I just wanted to communicate that it isn't wise to give up on something just because one seems to be in a plateau period. I'd say the same thing to someone who was dieting. You may have stopped eating sweets for a week, but you probably haven't lost 30 lbs yet. Does that mean the diet isn't working? A simplistic example, yes, but that's all I was trying to say.

Find something that works for others, put it into practice, and worry not about results. They happen as the technique is mastered... assuming mastery is possible for the individual practicing the technique, but that's another issue

Jackson

"Oi, for heaven sake MM & hipster! Just to be clear here, as different people learn in different ways; I am looking to develop the basic skills, but do it in a way that works easily for me. Learning to play the panio is a good analogy.

If I was learning the piano and after a long amount of trial and effort I discovered that the Suziki method didn't seem to work for me, I could try the Faber method, I could try the Sounder method, etc, etc. Playing panio could be the greatest thing in the world, but if it's not taught in a way that's suits the capacity of the student ,then the learning of it will be unnecessarily slow and awkward; even if the student REALLY WANTS TO LEARN.

Similarly, noting practice could be the greatest practice in the dharma universe, but if it's not taught in away that suits the predilections of the student, well you get the picture...


Maybe my problem is a unique one, because of epic samantha practice over many years I have this kalinkha samadhi thing happenin bigtime, so when I do the Mahasi method of clasification I feel like I am trying to merge onto a freeway with cars and semis wizzing by bumper-to-bumper at a 100mph, and it's my task to get in behind each vehicle and see which state each licence plate comes from. To deal with this it's my instinct to get a list of the state names and memorize them first so I can pick out each one at a glance.

I hope it works, if not back to the drawing board. I'm glad that what ever is working for you is working, but for a multitude of valid reasons some of us don't find the Mahasi method so easy to do. It ain't for a lack of wanting to learn though, or for lack of trying."

OK I see what you are saying.

Just for the record -- I'm lousy at the Mahasi method.
what is kalinkha samadhi?

"what is kalinkha samadhi? "

It's actually "khanika samadhi," which means momentary concentration, or momentary one pointedness. It's distinguishable from absorption (deep jhana). Absorption leaves no room for the arising and passing of phenomena. Momentary one-pointedness is being intently focused on the arising and passing of phenomena.

Noting practice fosters the development of khanika samadhi, while things like kasina practice are used to develop more of a jhana (absorption) samadhi.

At least that's how I understand it...

~Jackson

"It's actually "khanika samadhi," which means momentary concentration, or momentary one pointedness. It's distinguishable from absorption (deep jhana). Absorption leaves no room for the arising and passing of phenomena. Momentary one-pointedness is being intently focused on the arising and passing of phenomena.

Noting practice fosters the development of khanika samadhi, while things like kasina practice are used to develop more of a jhana (absorption) samadhi.

At least that's how I understand it...

~Jackson"

Okay.
I looked up Kalinkha samadhi and it's a new age band!

Great double bill:
The Anti Mushroom Cultlure with opening act Kalinkha Samadhi. !

(I still think the BEST name for a band ever is "The Dukkha Nanas")

"Excellent - this addresses my questions about noting too - I've done a lot of just sitting / choiceless awareness type practice over the last 15 years or so and the speed with which arisings are noticed pretty well makes any attempt at noting seem very clunky. I don't want to dismiss anything which might genuinely help my practice, but noting in the classic Mahasi way doesn't seem to quite cut the mustard. Still, I'm open to persuasion ... "

The teachers I happened to connect with both taught choiceless awareness. It sure seemed to have worked for them and some of their students, but I didn't develop much insight or concentraion considering that I put a few years into it. When I read Shinzen Young saying that Zen students can spend years spacing out, I thought "uh oh!". Tried Noting and it seemed immediately effective. I had learned to sit still for a long time and relax but it probably would have helped me at least if I'd learned to meditate!

"(I still think the BEST name for a band ever is "The Dukkha Nanas")"

With all the musicians in the crowd, it may yet happen. I vote for blues...The Dark Night Blues would be a great signature song.

"...I am looking to develop the basic skills, but do it in a way that works easily for me...

...Maybe my problem is a unique one, because of epic samantha practice over many years I have this kalinkha samadhi thing happenin bigtime, so when I do the Mahasi method of clasification...

...I feel like I am trying to merge onto a freeway with cars and semis wizzing by bumper-to-bumper at a 100mph, and it's my task to get in behind each vehicle and see which state each licence plate comes from. To deal with this it's my instinct to get a list of the state names and memorize them first so I can pick out each one at a glance.

I hope it works, if not back to the drawing board. I'm glad that what ever is working for you is working, but for a multitude of valid reasons some of us don't find the Mahasi method so easy to do. It ain't for a lack of wanting to learn though, or for lack of trying."

Hi, Mark. I get the impression that we're in similar stages of practice. I've been doing noting practice since October, and I've been seeing a good deal of progress, but haven't gotten Path, much to my frequent momentary dissapointment/discouragement/frustration. But that's the thing, it's frequent, and momentary. Don't forget to apply the technique to the experience of practice being difficult. And yeah it's tough. I totally feel you on the "wanting to learn, trying with admirable effort, not getting the desired results" thing.

Continued below.

But, I'm not at all convinced by the aim to "do it in a way that works easily for me." I haven't seen any evidence that Mahasi noting is easy for anybody. As you say, it's not easy for a multitude of reasons, and I think that's just part of the learning process, not something particular to a sub-group of meditators. Yet, that said, I haven't done epic samatha practice over many years, so maybe my take isn't applicable.

Also, fyi, the freeway analogy sounds very familiar, and it doesn't sound like you're doing it wrong. It sounds like you're doing it right, and stuff is just moving fast (as it tends to do, in reality, when we see it clearly and up close).

Maybe where you're going astray, to use your analogy, is the point where you follow your instinct to get a list of state names, etc. Sounds like there are just some habits of interest to work through. Maybe try noticing the first inklings of that instinct to analyze or collect data, and just drop it there if you can. Remember the content isn't the issue, just keep "knowing and letting go." Not easy, but simple. It took me a long time to realize that it didn't matter why I'd drifted off from the present, gotten lost in thought, etc. It just mattered that I'd realized the fact, and now could come back.

To continue the driving metaphor, the way I conceive of practice and progress is that you keep driving, even though you might be intrigued by signs suggesting you're on the right track, or disturbed by signs suggesting you're on the wrong track, and you might want to pause and check them out for a little while, but either way the better choice is to just keep on driving.

I'm not going to say you're fine, because you might not be. I don't know. I've failed in significant ways myself, and - in a related story - I'm not enlightened.

Thanks for the kind words Ryguy (and the rest of you jokers) all rule the Dharma realms, you know that!

Good points there hipster. I just felt like I've identified a particular (and possibily unusual) noting problem for me, and I could see that way I was going at it wasn't going to fix that particular problem. So, I was looking for some different approaches. Anyway, I've got some support and help with it from everyone here, so back into the forrest I go...

"Thanks for the kind words Ryguy"

You're very welcome. Glad to be of support. I know I've needed that often enough. Three cheers for Sangha.