Questions

I was talking with a good friend of mine the other day about my social anxiety. Many other things have cleared up or dropped away, but my social anxiety has been pretty persistent. Its intensity has decreased over the years to the extent that people don't even realize that I am experiencing anxiety, since I probably only have subtle physical signs of anxiety. Nonetheless, it still manifests, keeping me from enjoying social interaction, meeting new people, and having new experiences. I'm not quite sure how I would act in a social situation if I wasn't anxious. I enrolled in a social confidence program recently that utilizes EFT to reduce or even eliminate social anxiety in entirety. I found that my EFT practice was not tackling my social anxiety very well, particularly because social anxiety disorder is multifaceted in that not only is there the anxiety, there are feelings about having the anxiety, feelings about myself for having the anxiety, resistance (i.e. fear) to curing social anxiety, etc. The program I am doing is comprehensive and I have experienced some relief so far. I no longer feel ashamed to have social anxiety and see it as a means for my unconscious to protect myself from re-experiencing emotional pain that occurred in the past. We'll see how it turns out. It definitely is a little scary to think what I might be like without this anxiety. It's been with me for over a decade.

Absolutely fascinating, isn't it, that it is so hard to imagine what life would be like if we weren't a certain way anymore!!

Just to encourage, I was really extraordinarily socially anxious as a child and teen; I got over the outer expressions of it and gained some courage through life experience during college and work and so forth over the years. I think my earlier work in Santeria also built a lot of confidence (that overlapped with college and onward). I'd say after some years of meditation practice it is now really completely gone, and it just frees up a chunk of mental energy not to even think about it. So there's hope.

Jake2, is there information about this program on the web? If so, and you feel comfortable doing so, please share the url with me so I can check it out.



As a counselor in training, I'm partial to therapies with a strong evidence base. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT, said as the word "act," not as initials) is currently my preferred approach. AnxietyHappens.com is a good resource, along with its companion book The Worry Trap . Basic info on Social Phobia/Social Anxiety Disorder can be found here - http://www.anxietyhappens.com/AnxietyDisorders/social_phobia.htm



"It definitely is a little scary to think what I might be like without this anxiety. It's been with me for over a decade." -Jake2



Something about this statement stands out to me, Jake2. I want to see if it does for you, too. When thinking about a conceptualized version of your future-self - a "you" without anxiety - you are met with more feelings of anxiety. Put simply, you're anxious about a possible future where you feel less anxiety. And, you're also anxious about feeling anxious. Basically, your mind is giving you lots to be anxious about, and it's doing a good job of it. Way to go mind!



Your basic mindfulness skills can help you, here. Are you willing to try holding these toughts as thoughts, rather than as placeholders for experiences that aren't actually happening? By "hold" I mean the way you might hold a butterfly that lands in your hand, letting it be.

Hey Jackson,

Here's a link to the program: http://www.social-anxiety-solutions.com/social-confidence-system.html

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out. I've never heard of ACT, only CBT as effective for social anxiety disorder.

Sure. You've been very helpful in reminding me that thoughts and feelings are not ME. These are just some MORE thoughts/feelings to hold at arm's length. Thanks

Thanks for the link.

ACT is considered a "third-wave" form of CBT by some. One of the key differences is that it focuses not on changes in the content of cognitions, but rather on altering the context in which they occur. This effectively transform the function of cognitions, rather than their form or frequency. Attempts and changing form and/or frequency is usually what causes the suffering in the first place, so doing more of this is counterproductive.

"Sure. You've been very helpful in reminding me that thoughts and feelings are not ME. These are just some MORE thoughts/feelings to hold at arm's length. Thanks "

It's clearly more easily said than done. The process can make sense without being put into practice, which is why willingness is key.

Jake2, did you read the disclaimer page?

http://www.social-anxiety-solutions.com/disclaimer.html

"This site is designed for educational purposes only and is not engaged in rendering medical advice or professional services. If you feel that you have a emotional or mental health problem, you should seek the advice of your Mental Health Care Practitioner or Doctor."

I'll be honest, because I think you deserve it: I don't trust this guy. This site is full of pseudo-psychological hokum. His effectiveness claims are anecdotal, and the empirical literature to date (in my understanding) does not support what he is claiming. Your money could definitely be put to better use.

The sentence, "If you feel that you have a emotional or mental health problem, you should seek the advice of your Mental Health Care Practitioner or Doctor," says it all. He's basically selling a cure for Social Anxiety Disorder, while simultaneously saying it's better to see a trained professional. This isn't good.

Just to be clear, I'm not putting you down. You're a reasonable person. I happen to have a more thorough understanding of psychology, and I feel obligated to inform you of when you might be unwittingly deceived by individuals who may or may not be well-meaning in their attempts to provide help with serious problems.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you in greater detail either here, or via email.

@jackson, you know that's standard "don't sue me for claiming something I'm not certified to say and has no FDA support" language.

BUT, that said, I do tend to be very, very wary of the over-enthusiastic "amazing" results type spiels that sound like late-night TV miracle weight-loss or male-part-enhancement advertisements. That kind of language just screams "don't hand over your credit card." A valid approach, even if not all western science approved (accupuncture, meditation, etc), does not need that kind of frantic sales pitch.

@sunyata, I'll second "I think you deserve it" - you are a cool guy, intelligent, and making progress in your practice (which costs nothing except your dedication and time). I truly wish you well, and am completely confident you can do it without shelling out bundles o' cash to teachers/therapists of dubious quality. Jackson's a good egg, and I can vouch for his caring nature, good advice, intelligence and overall sanity.

Thank you, Ona.

Jake2, I hope my post didn't scare you off. I should say that I'm not bashing EFT outright. I doubt the process itself is harmful. It seems to work on some of the same processes used in other therapies. What I take issue with is this website, and the person providing the material. It's incredibly irresponsible to do what he's doing. He could really make things worse for people, and posting a clever disclaimer doesn't let him off the hook; not in my book, anyway.

I care about you. My opinion is not final, and you don't have to agree with me in order to be a member of this forum. You are welcome just as you are, as are the rest of us. I just get a little fired up when I think one of my friends is being taken advantage of.

Hey Jackson et al,

I definitely feel the caring vibes coming from everyone here all the time. I know any attempt to warn me that I might be under the sway of quackery is well-intended. That said, I know what I am getting myself into and that the medical literature in support of EFT and this particular person's modality is scant or non-existent. Prior to purchasing the program, I read through the website in entirety, watched the free video series he offers on YouTube, and acknowledge that the disclaimer is to protect himself from litigation since he is not a licensed practitioner. After doing all of this, I felt that 1) the purveyor is a genuinely good-natured person who wants to help people; 2) this was something that had a good chance of helping me; and 3) my intuition told me to go for it.

We'll see if my $200 was well-spent. At least I actually have access to a program rather than just a page that says "GOTCHA SUCKER!"

Jake2, thank you for responding. You appear to be aware of the risks involved, and that makes me feel a little better about it; not that my feelings are of primary concern, here.

Again, my issue wasn't so much that EFT is being taught, or even that the guy is charging for the product. I think it's perfectly reasonable to offer services at a price. I'm OK with people charging for meditation instruction, and see it as no different than learning to play guitar, or learning to swim.

What I don't like is how he is clearly offering a treatment for a recognized psychological disorder, in the clinical sense; and yet, he is not qualified to do so. That bothers me. If I were to teach meditation for a fee, I would not advertise the practice as treatment for psychopathology; that is, unless I were licensed to do so. That crosses an ethical line that I'm not willing to go near. So, while this guy might be sincere, he's displaying poor judgment in this area.

As for you, Jake2, I support you. I hope the process continues to be helpful for you. I'm available if you ever want to explore your options for treatments with a stronger evidence base (not delivered by me, of course, but I can locate resources).

Thanks again for chiming in. I hope I'm not bumming you out too much.

Thanks for the offer. If this doesn't work for me I might just do that!

"What I don't like is how he is clearly offering a treatment for a
recognized psychological disorder, in the clinical sense; and yet, he is
not qualified to do so." - Jackson

I am guessing you mean the sense of "qualified" to be "carrying a license." (If I am wrong here, ignore the rest of this... ) To play devil's advocate a little bit, having a license does not necessarily mean that an individual is an adept healer. It's just a piece of paper that someone receives once they've completed the necessary education and clinical hours. Someone could easily be licensed and an atrocious healer...and vice versa. One thing that appealed to me about this fellow is that he has "lived experience": he used EFT himself under the guidance of EFT practitioners to help eliminate his social anxiety and is now passing on what he learned to others. To me this carries a sense of "qualified" that is more reassuring than a piece of paper.

I’ve tried to write a couple responses to this, but none of it seems very helpful. I find myself wanting to be right about this, you know? Something tells me that my being right isn’t going to be helpful for either of us.

In the service of allowing us both to learn from experience, I’m going to step aside from this topic and let it roll by. I sincerely hope you find the process helpful. And, I’m around if you ever want to pick my brain about evidence-based treatments.

Hmm, I tried to write a response but it got to complicated. Basically I can see truth in what both of you are saying, and feel like chiming in to say so. I think the world is big enough for these two things to be true:

1) licensure, peer review, evidence based methodology are good things, for lots of reasons, and are particularly suited to a society in which one seeks this sort of help from strangers, like this society we live in.

2) some people who are not participating in those particular legitimation processes, whether they are coming from pre-modern traditions like Shamanism say, or something modern but fringe, or whatever, whether they live in our society or another society, are going to be more effective than some "legitimate" therapists, and some will be worse, and some licensed therapists are ethical but not particularly competent, or outright unethical, or whatever, and the world is very very complex and nuanced.

Jake1 out

To get back to the begining of the original thread:

When watching one's thoughts during vipassana are there any other focuses of attention, like the breath? I find that if I try to watch my thoughts they all go really fast and I don't know what to watch. If I focus on my ajna first then maybe I can see the thoughts better.

I'm curious what vipassana instructions you are using? Could you let me know? As I said before, in the history of buddgist practice there seems to be a lot of variations out there of ways to do vipassana. Did you get an instruction about watching your thoughts? What was it?

Most of the instructions I've read seem to focus on watching/noting/noticing bare sensations in the breath, or in certain parts of the body, or in a body "scan" like the Goenka method, or on posture, movment, temperture -- and don't instuct one to watch "thoughts." (Though there is a great section in Ingram's book about this -- I'll try to find it and link to it.)

However, I've done a lot work doing this -- being objectively aware of thoughts and images as they arise. I watch their appearance without engaging in them and watch them go away on their own. And, then, watcth the new thought or image arise. But, this isn't "thinking," is it? this is watching the unbidden stream of mental words and pictures that just pour forth on their own sometimes in a wild torrent and sometimes in a mild trickle. but, they will always appear.

"Thinking," though, (in my opinion of course, I"m just exploring this) is when one is compelled to engage in the thougths/words/images and reflect, analyze, manipulate, figure out, etc. and, as an entity, get kind of lost and also build narratives and stories about one's self, other people, life, etc. (what i'm doing right now). And it is also when the mind engages in life in order to solve problems or accomplish goals.

Anyway, for me, insight seems to come while sittting (or even not while sitting) if I stick to watching the stream and THEN, also, objectively watch myself start doing the "thinking," the reflecting, engaging, and disembed from THAT, and all the new thoughts and images it generates, as well.

See what I mean? If one makes it okay to get lost in thought and just watches with a kind of soft/kind attitude the movement of it all (and in relation to sensations of course) one can reveal oneself to oneself. One can really see, step by step, how we create ourselves and our picture of the world out of whole cloth each and every moment. Something coming from nothing that is only something because we think it so. We are all doing it right now, all we have to do is watch it -- very closely, very carefully.



Which makes me think about this social anxiety subject. One would think that social anxiety has something to do with a person's sense of self. this is true, right? I mean, who or what is anxious and what is it anxious about? How one appears? Whether one is going to do or say the wrong thing, get embarrassed, get laughed at. And, maybe, part of this must be because all this is very important to the person -- does that make sense or am I off base?

Anyway, if I am right, how would "awakening" to such things as anicca and anatta effect social anxiety? If a person saw through things enough to recognize at least those two things it would seem that social anxiety might disappear or lesson. But, maybe not, rigtht? Obviously, if a person with severe social anxiety sat and sat and sat and got stream entry one day, they wouldn't wake up and never be afraid in social settings ever again. No way.

But, practice, I imagine, along with general maturing, counseling, etc. would probably help to bring some relief and, maybe, eventual ending of the anxiety. (Social anxiety could be something in the DNA that is just very very powerful and natural to an individual)

I think I've always had a different version of this type of thing that has greatly decreased over the years but this post is long enough already. So I'll stop.

Oh, what's an ajna?

Also, what is "energy work" or even "energy" other than whether one is tired or rested and how is it related to awakening?

Michael - energy work is practices from various traditions that use visualizations and meditations and such to move "energy in the body" - the kind of tingly electricky feeling flow of energy that is sometimes called kundalini energy.

In my experience everyone at some point experiences the "waking up" of this energy through meditation alone (dry/secular practitioners may say they had tremors or bliss sensations, and not mention it further).(To add: at the beginning it tends to manifest as twitching, tremors and minor bliss sensations. When it manifests more strongly it often is extremely strong - thrashing, ecstatic sensations, altered states, overwhelming levels of bliss, etc.)

In traditions and methods where one deliberately interacts with and cultivates this energy, it can be used for healing oneself and others, empowering magickal intentions (spells, etc.), and other such esoteric things.

The waking up of this energy often parallels the "awakening" process to some degree, but it does not cause awakening, and there are some people who awaken and never really pay much attention to their energy stuff and don't feel it much.

In my case I do not do formal energy work on a regular basis, but did experience a kundalini awakening and regularly sense and engage with the energy.

What it is scientifically I have no idea, but it is clearly experienced as a specific pattern of sensations in the body by millions of people for thousands of years, so there you go.

PS - above is terribly simplistic answer, but there is more info such as:

Some basics I wrote: http://alittledeathblog.com/2011/12/14/energy-work/

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

Good stuff Ona. I would also add the article on chakras:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

"If one makes it okay to get lost in thought and just watches with a kind of soft/kind attitude the movement of it all (and in relation to sensations of course) one can reveal oneself to oneself. "

This is great Mike. I was thinking about this this morning. It has become very apparent to me recently how much I worry about things, things that are not related to my social anxiety (which has a lot of worry involved too). I didn't have to make an extra effort to watch my mental stream to see this. I just naturally became aware of it and I tend to believe this a byproduct of consistent meditation practice and EFT work.

As for the vipassana I do, I never received formal instruction in vipassana as practiced in Theravada, but I have read about it, especially on this forum. I am leaning towards thinking that the distinction between samatha and vipassana may be forced, particularly since vipassana as you folks indicate involves concentration on the breath, on a particular part of the body, on posture, movement, etc. As this concentration ripens, the mental stream becomes more apparent. By this definition then, my chakra meditation, wherein I focus on the third-eye, is a type of vipassana and I sense this too. BTW, "Ajna" is the Sanskrit name for the third-eye. I should be more careful bandying around Sanskrit terms.

As for social anxiety, as far as I can tell, it consists of a set of negative, limiting beliefs that were formed from experiences in one's past. These beliefs might be that "everyone is mean", "I need to be perfect to be loved", etc. These beliefs give rise to fear and anxiety. Social anxiety might also be a learned trait from one's parents, which may also play into my experience, since my father and mother both deal with it, my father especially. In such a case one is learning his/her belief system through his/her parents.

As Ona said, I think social anxiety can be reduced or eliminated through practice as one discharges the emotions coupled with these beliefs and then replaces his/her beliefs with more accurate ones. (This is what the EFT work endeavors to do.) I have definitely experienced a lessening of my anxiety since I began practicing.

blessings to all

edit: clarity, grammar!

"Which makes me think about this social anxiety subject.[...] Obviously, if a person with severe social anxiety sat and sat and sat and got stream entry one day, they wouldn't wake up and never be afraid in social settings ever again. No way." -Mike

Great points, Mike. Check out the following excerpt from Hayes & Wilson (2003):

"The problem with verbal-cognitive functions is not so much that they are bidirectional and evaluative, but that they are so dominant. Consider the situation of a person in a mall with panic disorder who is monitoring a rapidly beating heart, worrying about social humiliation, scanning for an escape route, and constantly evaluating whether or not now is the time to leave. None of these behaviors are problems in and of themselves. They all overlap with the normal range to a degree and, at least in the form of memories, they will continue to occur even after successful treatment. The problem is that these functions dominate over all others in the mall. For a person with panic disorder, going to the mall is about them, and not about looking at the people, talking to salespersons, having a soda, appreciating the architecture, telling a joke, trying on cosmetics, and any of a thousand other behaviors that can be engaged in at the mall. Said another way, the problem is not the presence of certain functions, it is their narrowness and in natural impact of human language and cognition, and it is this core impact that is ultimately targeted by all of these methods" (p. 164, emphasis by authors).

By "these methods," the authors are referring to mindfulness-based treatments for psychological suffering. Though this excerpt speaks specifically of Panic Disorder, it is placed in a social context; in this case, it's not much different than Social Phobia.

The way I see it, psychological health isn't measured by the presence or absence of certain thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. Rather, one's psychological health and well-being is better measured on a spectrum of from inflexible to flexible. Some have suggested that anxiety is a sign of internal conflict. We want to approach something (say, going to the mall to buy a shirt), but the closer we get, the more our fear escalates. At a certain point our fear and desire meet at a crossroads, and we get stuck. We really don't see a way forward.

Often what traps us is what has been called a context of literality. When thoughts arise, a context of literality sets the stage for taking thoughts for what they say they are. If we are able to make contact with thoughts for what they are in themselves, we can defuse the context of literality. We may then construct a context of workability by asking, "Does buying into this thought help me pursue my values?" or simply, "Does buying this thought move me toward or away from what I really want in life?" We can then chose to accept thoughts and feelings for what they are when it is helpful to do so, and choose to move in directions that may contradict their literal meaning.

Paradoxically, when we stop fighting with thoughts and feelings, their intensity tends to decrease exponentially. But that isn't really the point. (It's more of a nice secondary effect.) The point is that thoughts and feelings only determine actions when inflexible contexts of literality dominate over other, more expansive and workable contexts available to language-able human beings.

I could go on and on about this (obviously). What I like about this approach is that it not only makes sense to me cognitively and experientially, but it's also incredibly well-supported by decades of empirical literature.

Reference

Hayes, S. C., & Wilson, K. G. (2003). Mindfulness: Method and process. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice, 10(2), 161-165.

"As for social anxiety, as far as I can tell, it consists of a set of negative, limiting beliefs that were formed from experiences in one's past. These beliefs might be that 'everyone is mean', 'I need to be perfect to be loved', etc. These beliefs give rise to fear and anxiety. Social anxiety might also be a learned trait from one's parents, which may also play into my experience, since my father and mother both deal with it, my father especially. In such a case one is learning his/her belief system through his/her parents.

As Ona said, I think social anxiety can be reduced or eliminated through practice as one discharges the emotions coupled with these beliefs and then replaces his/her beliefs with more accurate ones. (This is what the EFT work endeavors to do.) I have definitely experienced a lessening of my anxiety since I began practicing." -Jake2

Yes, this is a very common understanding of the "cause" of social anxiety, or psychological suffering in general. People spend a lot of time trying to change the content of their thoughts from maladaptive beliefs (e.g. "The world is unsafe.") to more adaptive ones (e.g. "The world is mostly safe, most of the time.") Sometimes this works, but the effects are often temporary. There is no reliable way to control the content of our thoughts. And when treat the content of thoughts as important, we spend a lot of time challenging our thoughts in order to change them, rather than simply doing something different with our lives.

As I mentioned in my last post, thoughts do not cause behavior except as regulated by context. When we accept that our thoughts are true, we act accordingly. When we see them as just thoughts - as the product of our past programming, and nothing more - we can chose to buy a thought, or to leave it on the shelf. Taking the power away from language as a regulatory mechanism is much more effective than attempting to change the content within the same problematic context.

In short, this struggle with thoughts and feelings is root of the problem; or as they say in ACT, the solution is the problem. It's like being in a tug of war with a monster. We can try to get stronger, or better and tugging the rope, with the hopes of winning the fight. But we're dealing with a monster; it's not a fair fight. So, what would happen if you dropped the rope?

Jake2, I want to validate one important aspect of all this process you're working with. The most positive thing about EFT, in my opinion, is that it encourages making contact with painful emotions. It creates a context where doing this is OK, and allows you to work with it differently than you have in the past. The act of experiencing emotions without reacting is perhaps the single most effective process of any type of therapy. Most of the other stuff is just fluff (not just with EFT, but most other therapies/practices as well).

So, if EFT helps you to make contact with your experience without defense, than keep doing it! I would suggest you worry less about whether your thoughts change. Work with them the say way you work with your emotions, and you should continue to see improvement!

@jackson: "So, what would happen if you dropped the rope?"

WHAT a brilliant question!!! Applies in so many situations.

Isn't it? The Tug-of-War with a Monster metaphor was actually thought up by an ACT client, and is now a key metaphor used by ACT therapists. It's one of my favorites

Michael - energy work is practices from various traditions that use visualizations and meditations and such to move "energy in the body" - the kind of tingly electricky feeling flow of energy that is sometimes called kundalini energy.

In my experience everyone at some point experiences the "waking up" of this energy through meditation alone (dry/secular practitioners may say they had tremors or bliss sensations, and not mention it further).(To add: at the beginning it tends to manifest as twitching, tremors and minor bliss sensations. When it manifests more strongly it often is extremely strong - thrashing, ecstatic sensations, altered states, overwhelming levels of bliss, etc.)
In traditions and methods where one deliberately interacts with and cultivates this energy, it can be used for healing oneself and others, empowering magickal intentions (spells, etc.), and other such esoteric things.
The waking up of this energy often parallels the "awakening" process to some degree, but it does not cause awakening, and there are some people who awaken and never really pay much attention to their energy stuff and don't feel it much.
In my case I do not do formal energy work on a regular basis, but did experience a kundalini awakening and regularly sense and engage with the energy.
What it is scientifically I have no idea, but it is clearly experienced as a specific pattern of sensations in the body by millions of people for thousands of years, so there you go.

-ona

Okay, I've known about Kundalini for years, but I didn't know it was the same or near the same thing as "energy work."

This has happened to me a lot and sometimes pretty intensely just from practicing vipassana. Huge jolts of energy rushing up from the bottom of my spine that would jerk my head and twist it and put my face into odd shapes and contort my body. As well as just that tingly feeling at my crown, my scalp, my arms (which I allways called "rapture"). For more than a year this would come and go all the time. I also got some intense electrical feelings right in my ass that I've has allways seemed strange to talk about but there you go ) And, sometimes my eyes get to feeling like there are sparks shooting through them.

This still comes and goes but the intensity has lessened. I guess it could come back -- I'm open.

So I guess energy work is somehow doing stuff with all that energy? Kundalini yoga style?

all I've done is just watch it and let it come. To work with it seems, at least for now, way too complicated. And, my gut tells me, perhaps incorrecty, that it is kind of a side show, a veering off of time and energy of just developing deeper and deeper awakening. I mean, it is separate from awakening in a way, right? Cool, useful, healing -- but an optional for those who are interested. Does that seem right? Again, I'm open and hope what I said doesn't sound negative because I do think it seems pretty cool.

Oh, and my ajna vibrates or pulsates all the time sitting or not. In fact all I have to do is think about it and it starts to vibrate. I've often wondered if there was a practice I could do to somehow take advantage of this?