New Blog Post: Vipassana Meditation: More than just "noting"

What is the role of "cessation" in your view of vipassana, Jackson? The reason I ask is because, it seems to me, all this noting stuff, esp. fast noting, seems better tuned to pre-SE practice when one trying to get to the first cessation moment, but that presumes that cessations are somehow relevant to progress.

-tomo

That's a great question, Tomo. I think everyone has a slightly different view of the importance (or unimportance) of cessation in relation to practice. Here's my take on it...

Cessation moments occur when clinging stops cold. Another way of saying this is that cessation is what reveals the reality of nibbana, which is itself the reality of non-clinging. The reason I feel that these moments are important is that it is (in my opinion) a clear marker that one is actually practicing in a way that leads to non-clinging. If one's practice leads to cessation moments, then we can say without question that they're utilizing a practice that reduces clinging until it stops, if only momentarily.

The goal is NOT to somehow remain in some state of absence or void, never to return. That's not even what happened with the Buddha. What does occur, however (in my opinion, of course) is that the we gradually weaken the root pathological mechanisms of grasping, aversion, and delusion through continued skillful practice. The less these interfere with experience, the more free we are. And as I've already written, one way to know whether or not these processes are actually being influenced is the occurrence of cessation. Does that makes sense?

For me, liberation/release/awareness-set-free is the point of all this Buddhist stuff. Since release can be practiced, it makes sense to practice it over and over and over again, because that changes the way our minds work in the long run. That's why just thinking, "Duh, everything is transient. I get it. What's the big deal? I still suffer," is not enough. Deeply experiencing transience to the point of release, and then doing it repeatedly, is what results in lasting freedom. There are some big shifts and developmental stages of integration along the way (peaks and valleys), just as when developing any other skill. At some point the practice of release becomes "second nature" - almost automatic. But continued practice is required in order to keep things running smoothly, much in the same way as a guitarist needs to practice sweeping or two-hand tapping regulalry in order to stay proficient at it.

That's how I see it at this time. I'm open to criticism, as I know that I'm not the most experienced practitioner in the forum by any means.

By the way, I wasn't consciously noting at all when cessation first occurred for me. I was practicing acceptance of experience and compassion ("This too, this too."). I got ready for bed, said goodnight to my wife and cats, laid my head down on my pillow, and just watched the unimpressive lightshow behind my eyelids. Out of nowhere... blip. No rapid-fire noting. Just mindfulness, equanimity, and acceptance. I feel that if I would have been going gung-ho on noting, I would not have been relaxed enough to let go. The fact that it occurred when I laid down to rest speaks to something, I think.

-Jackson

If while meditating there are sensations going on that are fast I don't "note" them with some kind of mental word each time the sensations happen. But, I do take the opportunity to see if I can be aware of or notice each one, and especially be ready to see when things end/stop.

I've used this comparison before with a friend: think of really fast jazz on a piano. Sometimes there can be sensations/vibrations/changes going on that are as fast as that. Now, if you can listen intently enough to "get" or hear each note no matter how fast they are coming -- that's the same thing that I'll do sometimes with noticing fast vibrations. But I'm not talking about a mental note, just awareness or noticing.

Things aren't always happening this fast, but if they are -- I tune in. If they stop happening so fast I tune into that.

For the most part though, I agree with Jackson. For vipassana, just seeing the myriad changes going on with each in breath and each out breath and everything in between is enough. The depth and detail of what can be seen there is never ending. However, I guess that method does lead to jhanic territory. I'm lucky in a way, I guess, because I really don't seem to be at all attracted to developing jhana. If I start to feel blissful, if I get rapture feelings, see lights, and/or feel a kind of rythym devloping to my breathing and concentration, etc.m I get a little creeped out and find a way to amp up the vipassana and get away from the jhana.

Someday I might get over this sort of aversion to jhana, but not anytime soon I don't think.

Not to put too fine a point on it but things are always happening very, very fast because that's how the biology works. We just don't notice it.

-cmarti

For me, sure, "things" are always happening very fast, but what I was talking about is when for whatever reason I become aware of vibrations in some part of my body that are fast. This comes and goes.

"For me, liberation/release/awareness-set-free is the point of all this Buddhist stuff. Since release can be practiced, it makes sense to practice it over and over and over again, because that changes the way our minds work in the long run. That's why just thinking, "Duh, everything is transient. I get it. What's the big deal? I still suffer," is not enough. Deeply experiencing transience to the point of release, and then doing it repeatedly, is what results in lasting freedom. There are some big shifts and developmental stages of integration along the way (peaks and valleys), just as when developing any other skill. At some point the practice of release becomes "second nature" - almost automatic. But continued practice is required in order to keep things running smoothly, much in the same way as a guitarist needs to practice sweeping or two-hand tapping regulalry in order to stay proficient at it."

What Jackson said there just might be right.

I just read a comment by Ron in the KFDh thread Cut to the chase that I feel is relevant to this conversation about noting...

"This an interesting conversation and I'd like to jump in and say that noting does have a sort of point of diminishing returns, where it takes up more cognitive bandwidth than it helps you to free up.

Kenneth gave me the instruction to stop noting in High Equanimity and just attend to the process silently like a 'cat watching for a mouse', where the mouse is any thought that might arise and disrupt the progress. That really helped. So, in my experience, noting is like a big powerful rocket booster. It gets you into high orbit, but it needs to be jettisoned to keep climbing."

Kenneth's pointer to Ron here is actually a good one. It's not that noting is bad in the Equanimity ñana. But the point is to stay in a what I might call relaxed alertness. Tight alertness won't do, and neither will relaxed dullness. So whether one loosely notes something neutral like the rise and fall of the abdomen, or simply stays watchful in a relaxed way, the practice is basically the same.

The moral of the story: aggressive noting is not always the best practice. In fact, I dare say it's hardly ever the best practice. For me, quick noting reaches peak effectiveness during the 2nd and 3rd ñanas, leading up to the A&P (which no longer requires that kind of intentional noting).

And that's only if I'm practicing "dry" insight. I prefer the jhana vehicle these days. It's a lot more pleasant, and it leads to cessation all the same if you know how to navigate the territory skillfully. Both the path of jhana and that of "dry" insight work their way up to a cultivation of clear mindfulness and relaxed equanimity. Cessation is a gentle step away.

-Jackson

All this discussion about the pros and cons of noting vs. noticing and for or against "fast noting" makes me realize that I pretty much know how I get to the fruition place. I know the process for me, the mechanics.

Of course I can't explain it in words and, of course, I'll try anyway:

1. I pay close attention to the details of my experience. Doesn't matter what, just the stuff that comes up RIGHT NOW. Thoughts, images, feelings, vibrations, etc.

2. I stay with that so that I'm not missing anything brand new.

3. To 1. and 2. requires that I have momentum and continuity of awareness. Momentum and continuity of awareness creates a tension for me between keeping the the momentum and continuity up and a desire to stop and reflect and think and become "me." and thus lose momentum and continuity.

4. If, at this point, I resist the temptation to stop and reflect (or just be aware of the temptation and keep going) there is a tremendous sense of letting go, surrenderng, moving out into space.

5. Then, release, fruition, cessation, etc.

All this is a result of paying gentle, yet persistent attention to the actual constantly changing stuff arising and passing.

That's a great description, Mike. Thanks.

Describing the process in this way shows that you have internalized a lot of the more technical aspects of the practice, so that you no longer have to "try" to do it, really. There's an intention to go through the process, and then you just do it. Like driving a car, or riding a bike, or playing guitar, etc. In terms of skillfulness in practice, that's a good place to be.

And, I will be so bold as to say that the process I described can happen anytime, not just while sitting. The only key is to be paying the right kind of attention.

And, I will be so bold as to say that the process I described can happen anytime, not just while sitting. The only key is to be paying the right kind of attention.

-michaelmonson

Another solid point, Mike. That "right kind of attention" is the foundation of good practice. There are some other things to tend to along the way when appropriate, but this "right kind of attention" will often take care of all that stuff.

All this discussion about the pros and cons of noting vs. noticing and for or against "fast noting" makes me realize that I pretty much know how I get to the fruition place. I know the process for me, the mechanics.
Of course I can't explain it in words and, of course, I'll try anyway:
1. I pay close attention to the details of my experience. Doesn't matter what, just the stuff that comes up RIGHT NOW. Thoughts, images, feelings, vibrations, etc.
2. I stay with that so that I'm not missing anything brand new.
3. To 1. and 2. requires that I have momentum and continuity of awareness. Momentum and continuity of awareness creates a tension for me between keeping the the momentum and continuity up and a desire to stop and reflect and think and become "me." and thus lose momentum and continuity.
4. If, at this point, I resist the temptation to stop and reflect (or just be aware of the temptation and keep going) there is a tremendous sense of letting go, surrenderng, moving out into space.
5. Then, release, fruition, cessation, etc.

All this is a result of paying gentle, yet persistent attention to the actual constantly changing stuff arising and passing.

-michaelmonson

More detail:

Something that goes on right around 3 and 4 above is what I think of as "disembedding." And, sometimes, if I actually say the word "disembed" in my had in a kind of resolution-like way, it can be like a jump start to get to number 5.

So, for me, disembedding is a way-of-looking that temporarily jettisons or melts away that center sense of "I" so that awareness just ... is.

More detail:
Something that goes on right around 3 and 4 above is what I think of as "disembedding." And, sometimes, if I actually say the word "disembed" in my had in a kind of resolution-like way, it can be like a jump start to get to number 5.
So, for me, disembedding is a way-of-looking that temporarily jettisons or melts away that center sense of "I" so that awareness just ... is.

-michaelmonson

That's interesting, Mike. I think I know the "space' you're referring to. I've been calling it "non-fashioning". It's the freedom that comes from letting go of becoming, no longer actively shaping experience. The thing just hums along on its own until cessation occurs. The first time this happened I thought it was stream entry. Little did I know that I was leaning against the edge of nothing, just moments from falling off.

Okay, so for everyone keeping score so far:

In my opinion, the reason anyone who is diligently practicing vipassana (noting, etc.) and never never ever seems able to get to fruition is because they don't take that leap into space (at the momentum/continuity point) to really become the awareness itself. That's the hard edge of it .... right .... there.

And, that is where the three characteristics show themselves as well, they are always hiding behind the sense of I and this reflecting, thinking, analyzing and being a "me." ("fashioning" - rather than "non-fashioning" to steal a phrase)

"There must be no gaps, but continuity between a preceding act of noting and a succeeding one, between a preceding state of concentration and a succeeding one, between a preceding act of intelligence and a succeeding one. Only then will there be successive and ascending stages of maturity in the mediator's understanding. Knowledge of the path and its fruition are attained only when there is this kind of accumulated momentum"
-- Mahasi Sayadaw

I have to laugh at that. That's all it takes, eh?

-tomo

It sounds kind of ridiculous, but yes. I stand by that.

It has a lot to do with taking away the lust for result. You don't "look" for cessation. You stop looking for it. You've let go of everything else by that point. Now, let go of desire for nibbana. Let go of it by noticing that its what holds you back. When your mind sees what is holding it back, it will drop it when it is ready.

It sounds kind of ridiculous, but yes. I stand by that. It has a lot to do with taking away the lust for result. You don't "look" for cessation. You stop looking for it. You've let go of everything else by that point. Now, let go of desire for nibbana. Let go of it by noticing that its what holds you back. When your mind sees what is holding it back, it will drop it when it is ready.

-awouldbehipster

And THAT is "equanimity."

Question -- noting, fast noting, is supposed to occupy (preoccupy?) the mind and help the noter "dis-embed" from their experience. But what happens in real life, off the cushion? You can't just note like a madman during that strategic planning meeting or while at dinner with your family, can you? So why not practice something that will help you deal with your experience while you're having the experience?

Second, what's wrong with actually having experiences? In my experience there's a part of mind that is always dis-embedded, always watching. It's called "awareness." Why not get in touch with that?
What say you, noters of note?

-cmarti

To be clear, I am not an advocate of "fast noting." I don't really get it either. But, I do, sometimes (as mentioned above somewhere), while sitting, 'notice' without a verbal 'note' fast vibrations that may be happening somewhere in my body. This can sometimes help me to get continuity and momentum of awareness and get to fruitions. But, right now, I'm not really sure how important sitting down and doing vipassana just to get "fruitions" really is -- though Jackson got me thinking about it in a previous post here. Anyway, I'm still doing it a lot just because it seems like my gut (the buddha inside me) wants me to.

Shit, while sitting here thinking about this I realized that I actually don't ever really "note" anymore. For a long long time my only noting was "rising" "falling" "stopping" but I guess I've dropped that as well for just a straight "noticing" or "awareness." When I sit the noticing of experience can be minutely detailed, while at work, during meetings, over dinner, it's developed into a modified version of the same thing. I try to stay in the place just before thought and flow with all the input from inside and without and let awareness encounter things completely before I reflect or analyze (if at all). If things do cause me to start to think, and get aggitated, and justify and wig out or whatever I try to let it happen and be aware of THAT.

I'm learning and then unlearning a lot of stuff.

Anyway, as Chris has said before, noting is just one of the myriad techniques and like all techniques isn't the thing itself and can be discarded at the right time(s). I could see myself losing the abilities I've gotten and needing to go back to strict "noting" to gradually get them back. Something like that.

I remember about a year a go during a lot of my sittings I'd note out loud (very loudly) just to get some kind of momentum of awareness going because I was SO lost in my head, in my thoughts. Once I got some momentum, though, I'd stop the out loud noting.

So to kind of answer Chris' question, I'd say:

1. "Fast noting" is just one of many ways to learn how to get continuity of awareness. It's one tool available but I dont' think it's really any big deal. I think the 'disembedding' comes from the continuity itself rather than how fast one is doing a certain technique.

2. I agree, our sitting practice and our non-sitting practice should slowly develop into the same basic technique or state of mind of basic awareness -- something one is always learning new ways to do, so that it maybe even becomes technique-less - it's just a way being intimate.

Tomo, you are right in suggesting that practicing noting is part of developing an important skill. Mindfulness is the skill to be developed, and noting (quickly or not) is a way to train the mind to be mindful.

I can't help but interject, though, that mindfulness alone isn't enough. It must be coupled with discernment for wisdom (panna) to come in and do the important work. Mindfulness alone may help us put things into another perspective, but that other perspective is still just a perspective. Transformation/liberation comes through wisdom, and wisdom comes by way of mindfulness (sati) and discernment (sampajañña). The following excerpt by the late Ajahn Chah sums it up nicely...

"There must be both sati and sampajañña. Sati is recollection and sampajañña is self-awareness. Right now you are clearly aware of the breath. This exercise of watching the breath helps sati and sampajañña develop together. They share the work. Having both sati and sampajañña is like having two workers to lift a heavy plank of wood. Suppose there are two people trying to lift some heavy planks, but the weight is so great, they have to strain so hard, that it’s almost unendurable. Then another person, imbued with goodwill, sees them and rushes in to help. In the same way, when there is sati and sampajañña, then panna (wisdom) will arise at the same place to help out. Then all three of them support each other." ( http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ajchah_lib/03_meditation.htm )

So yeah, noting is good, but there's more to it

-Jackson

Tomo,

IMHO, the fast & slow noting are both equally important.

The fast noting is important because the "note to acknowledge, so that I may quickly release" leads one to a form of mass-exodus letting-go that will begin to short-circuit your perception of reality as you know it...this leads to experiences that are transformative...such as path/fruition. You don't want to necessarily occupy the mind with noting...the important point is to let go of a sensation as quickly as it appears to your awareness. That is key. Watch the rise/fall or in/out of the breath & note every sensation & let it go as quickly as possible & return to the breathing. Sooner or later you begin noting & releasing the intention to note & release...this is usually where this short-circuit begins to happen. (Don't get the bright idea to try to force the event to happen. It doesn't work; it must come naturally. Just note until this progression happens naturally, on its own.)

Slow noting, while looked upon dismay by many systems--they see it as entertaining formations--is also very important. As it has been previously said, you cannot close you eyes & begin to let go of your experience in most social situations. When you slow-note, you let the experience play out...you train yourself to just watch it without identifying with it. This is the important part. And if you happen to identify with it, NOTE THAT. Saying "identifying, identifying" if you must.

The letting-go is an important part later on, but I think too many people try to let-go too soon. It is crucial that formations be properly conditioned before they're let-go...otherwise the letting-go doesn't really work. Why does equanimity always come before stream-entry? I say it is because no matter how hard you try to let go of this notion of self, on a more sub-conscious level the talons are dug in deep & there is a great fear of letting go. In order to really let go, you have to have that peace, comfort, and confidence through & through.

When SE happened for me...it was a little crazy...the notion of self completely disappeared...and I would have thought that would scare the living bejeezus out of me...but I've never felt more free. I never noticed that on a subconscious level, there was still a subtle belief that the self...and doing things/getting things for the self...brought happiness.

At that moment, I knew. I really knew that this notion of self is what has been causing all the suffering in my life. It did not, nor had it ever, brought me any true happiness.

...

Now I give you that long monologue to just say this: slowing down speeds you up. I know that sounds kind of like a fortune cookie, but I'm serious.

If fast-noting doesn't feel uncomfortable/out of place, go for it. If it does, drop it. Work on the slow-noting, about 1 note every 2 seconds & mindful watch the experience play out without identifying with it. This will help you to naturally evolve to faster noting & it will also teach you a valuable skill that those that have only fast-noted missed out on: living meditation in public/social situations.

When certain things happen in a public setting & you need to "go live" with meditation, do this:

1. Center yourself in the present; block out past & furture & pay close attention to what is happening right now.

2. Dis-embed yourself. The feeling (or whatever it is) is not you, it isn't inherently bad or good...it is what it is.

3. Don't push the feelings away with aversion (or attach to the pleasant). If you fail to succussfully do this, just note "identifying" or "aversion" or "attachment".

4. If someone is talking with you while you this is going on, stabilize the process & let it fall to the back of your mind. Play with the distribution of awareness until you know what is required to not identify or have aversion/attachment.

5. If things are really bad/intense, make an excuse to get somewhere private (go powder your nose!) and actually note until things are under control.

---
Brian A.J.

I am hoping Brian chimes in on this, because this is a crucial point to me.

-tomo

Tomo,

IMHO, the fast & slow noting are both equally important.
The fast noting is important because the "note to acknowledge, so that I may quickly release" leads one to a form of mass-exodus letting-go that will begin to short-circuit your perception of reality as you know it...this leads to experiences that are transformative...such as path/fruition. You don't want to necessarily occupy the mind with noting...the important point is to let go of a sensation as quickly as it appears to your awareness. That is key. Watch the rise/fall or in/out of the breath & note every sensation & let it go as quickly as possible & return to the breathing. Sooner or later you begin noting & releasing the intention to note & release...this is usually where this short-circuit begins to happen. (Don't get the bright idea to try to force the event to happen. It doesn't work; it must come naturally. Just note until this progression happens naturally, on its own.)
Slow noting, while looked upon dismay by many systems--they see it as entertaining formations--is also very important. As it has been previously said, you cannot close you eyes & begin to let go of your experience in most social situations. When you slow-note, you let the experience play out...you train yourself to just watch it without identifying with it. This is the important part. And if you happen to identify with it, NOTE THAT. Saying "identifying, identifying" if you must.
The letting-go is an important part later on, but I think too many people try to let-go too soon. It is crucial that formations be properly conditioned before they're let-go...otherwise the letting-go doesn't really work. Why does equanimity always come before stream-entry? I say it is because no matter how hard you try to let go of this notion of self, on a more sub-conscious level the talons are dug in deep & there is a great fear of letting go. In order to really let go, you have to have that peace, comfort, and confidence through & through.
When SE happened for me...it was a little crazy...the notion of self completely disappeared...and I would have thought that would scare the living bejeezus out of me...but I've never felt more free. I never noticed that on a subconscious level, there was still a subtle belief that the self...and doing things/getting things for the self...brought happiness.
At that moment, I knew. I really knew that this notion of self is what has been causing all the suffering in my life. It did not, nor had it ever, brought me any true happiness.
...
Now I give you that long monologue to just say this: slowing down speeds you up. I know that sounds kind of like a fortune cookie, but I'm serious.
If fast-noting doesn't feel uncomfortable/out of place, go for it. If it does, drop it. Work on the slow-noting, about 1 note every 2 seconds & mindful watch the experience play out without identifying with it. This will help you to naturally evolve to faster noting & it will also teach you a valuable skill that those that have only fast-noted missed out on: living meditation in public/social situations.
When certain things happen in a public setting & you need to "go live" with meditation, do this:
1. Center yourself in the present; block out past & furture & pay close attention to what is happening right now.
2. Dis-embed yourself. The feeling (or whatever it is) is not you, it isn't inherently bad or good...it is what it is.
3. Don't push the feelings away with aversion (or attach to the pleasant). If you fail to succussfully do this, just note "identifying" or "aversion" or "attachment".
4. If someone is talking with you while you this is going on, stabilize the process & let it fall to the back of your mind. Play with the distribution of awareness until you know what is required to not identify or have aversion/attachment.
5. If things are really bad/intense, make an excuse to get somewhere private (go powder your nose!) and actually note until things are under control.
---
Brian A.J.