Hi all :)

Fresh yogi meat here. Been checking out this great site for a while, and finally decided to say hi and dive right in with a couple of questions. But first let me say, I think I have yet to fully realize how lucky I am to have gotten into practice at a time where so much seems to be happening in "the scene", and what's more, to have it all freely available online. Gratitude to the world wide community.

Second, some background. My first go at meditation was on a Goenka retreat in july 2010. Had my first (as far as I know) big opening on day 4 or 5 (unexpectedly dropped into what I now know to call a high-equanimity "no dog"-style witness for a couple of minutes, first and last time ever, as of yet). I bummed out on day 7, if you can believe it, and didn't start practicing again until september 2010 or so, when I started listening to material from Gil Fronsdal, and later Shinzen Young, with additional inspiration from material by Alan Watts, Eckhart Tolle and Jack Kornfield.

During the Alan Watts period, one day as I went about my business, I suddenly sort of "blipped" into this undescribable, undeniable, palpable feeling of bliss, which ever so gradually wore off over the next 30 minutes or so, during which the world and myself were kinda just happening and everything was perfect. This was late december 2010.

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At some point it dawned on me that certain stuff was making incredible sense that would never have made sense to me before. In fact the reason I started looking into Eckhart Tolle, was to test that hypothesis. If I "got" what the heck he was talking about, and (as it turned out) even accurately predict his answers to almost any question that was posed in his books or by the audience of his lectures, I figured it had to mean something. It also dawned on me that most every-day things affected me somewhat differently, somehow. I still can't quite put my finger on it, but it's certainly been for the better. The way I describe this now hints at the possibility that all this can be traced back to the bliss episode, but I should add that this is only a guess on my part, which only occured to me months after the fact.

I found out about KFD and DhO somewhere around april 2011. Last july I eagerly went on another Goenka retreat, and bummed out on the 2nd day. My practice is fairly chaotic, in the sense that I haven't settled on any particular technique, my concentration sucks, I can't seem to build and maintain a lot of momentum, and there is a lot of variance in how "well" it seems to be going at any given time in terms of calm and sensitivity.

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Since the start of 2011 the main thread in my practice has been trying to stick to the most basic exercises to boost mindfulness and concentration. Not sure how well that's working out. I've spent most of my youth being pretty much absorbed in daydreaming, largely unaware of life passing by. These days it seems I'm sometimes even more absorbed in thought, as occasionally evidenced by for example pooring hot water and forgetting to put tea in it. Or putting a pizza in the oven and forgetting to turn the oven on. On the other hand, at other times it seems as though I'm noticing random things in my surroundings or in myself that I would normally be totally oblivious to. By the way I've tried some "cereal bowl"-style kasina practice, often get the embossing effect, sometimes get a wobbly image, so far that's it.

Other than this, the only somewhat "unusual" recurring phenomena I can report, which started sometime in (very roughly) the last 6 months or so, is the following two things. One is a rediscovery of something I remember feeling occasionally in the mid 90's, which is a mild surge of "energy" going up my torso. It seems to occur randomly. Back then it felt distinctly like it went up my spine and fizzled out somewhere in my neck or throat area. Now it's more or less the same, but sometimes it feels like it's more in the chest, and also sometimes it feels more like it's moving outward rather than up, particularly when I can sort of "open" or "loosen" tension in my body, as if making way for it. But in all cases my body tenses up again and the energy just seems to fizzle and disappear. I don't know the first thing chakra's and such, but I'm starting to think that maybe I should find out more about that. Before july 2010, and maybe even a while after, I would never have thought I would ever say this.

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Welcome Mark!

The other one is a bit of an anti-phenomenon. Sometimes I suddenly seem to "get alerted" to an ever so brief moment of stillness, as if the subtle background static suddenly stops for a fraction of a second, and then resumes again as if nothing happened. This also seems to occur randomly, and it usually takes me out of my thoughts and drops me right smack in the middle of here and now for a few seconds. It's not an absolute stillness, the world isn't stopping or anything, it's just the slight disappearance of this extremely subtle "noise" in the body and mind, that I'm not even aware of until it goes away and comes back again.

There's actually a third randomly occuring "phenomenon", but it actually feels more like a potential, like sometimes something is about to happen (oddly kind of a "energy surge" meets "stillness alert"), except it seems to be more of mental thing than a physical thing (maybe something with awareness itself), and it doesn't actually happen. It never gets over that edge of not-occuring. I don't even know how else to describe it. And it's all so incredibly subtle (for me anyway) that sometimes I wonder if I'm only imagining it. But the thing is, those three random occurances usually catch me off-guard when I'm not even thinking about it.

So, for those who've read through this essay , thanks. And if anyone has any suggestions at all for me, maybe to improve my practice or maybe in some way work with those things I mentioned (or what they even are), or whatever else, I'd be deeply appreciative.

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And I do have another question with regards to noting practice (which I've done far too little of, but which I've yesterday decided to be my main practice for the time being). Kenneth and Daniel recommend fast and accurate noting, as a mechanism to occupy the narrative network and establish a feedback loop. Shinzen Young, on the other hand, recommends a more laid back style of noting that isn't "racey", and also does not address content at all (i.e. instead of noting "tingling, coolness, tension" etc. you just note "feel out", or "feel rest", or "gone", for example). I'm pretty sure that both approaches are recommended for their own valid considerations. My question is, what would some of those considerations be?

Cheers! And may all awaken in this life

Thanks PEJN

By the way I think I may have used the phrase "bummed out" incorrectly. English isn't my native language. Read "I bummed out" as "I left the retreat" ... First time that happened, I couldn't stand meditating anymore and I didn't feel bad about leaving. I nonetheless felt good about having been there and I knew it did something for me. I knew the problem was my own, I had nothing against it in principle but I just apparently couldn't deal with the "aversion" I kept "generating", and I figured leaving would be the best choice for me at that time. Second retreat was a bit of a slap in the face and I felt defeated for leaving.

Welcome, Mark!

About noting styles: in my experience, you don't need to worry about becoming "good" at any style. The commitment to keep it up, whether it feels like it's going well or badly, is enough. I found Shinzen Young's words (touch / see / hear / feel / image / talk) very useful when I started noting practice, just so I wouldn't neurotically judge whether my own words were "right" or not. At other times, I would just note whichever sense was in my attention at that moment (I'm seeing; I'm hearing; I'm thinking...) As you get more comfortable, then using Kenneth's four categories is good, because that way, you know you are noting body, feelings, mind, and thoughts- the whole of experience. You'll always find some of these four easier and more comfortable than others- a lot of people run into trouble noting the third group (mind-states), and that is true even for very advanced practitioners.

Don't force yourself to note fast, if it just ties you up in knots- a note every few seconds is just fine. Eventually, you will sometimes find yourself noting fast, because your session has momentum. But that's not a sign of getting "better"- it's just the way a session is going.

Any note, any speed... all of it is good work.

Welcome, Mark. Several people on this list do both KF and Shinzen Young noting, switching between mediation sessions. You are an experiment of one. Try both and see what works.

jack

Thanks guys. Last month I actually adapted a noting exercise that I could do while driving (on the job), which was trying to establish a wide visual focus, and note "ploop" whenever a streetlight passes out of my field of view, and note "ding ding ding" whenever I pass traffic lights. I chose this "vocabulary" to add a little extra fun.

The "ploop" occurs often enough that you don't easily get dragged off in thought again, and the "ding ding ding" served as an extra test to make sure I wasn't accidentally going on auto-pilot. I did that pretty much all working hours for three days, and that really gave me a boost. But I've since lost my job, so a lot less opportunity for that particular exercise now. And the boost lasted maybe another couple of days.

Whenever I tried KF-style noting in a formal session, indeed I got more tangled up in thinking of the right words than anything else . I also found that I often couldn't even think of an adequate word. And this was only physical sensations. I also tried just mentally tapping each sensation without actually naming them, but then I got lost in thought a lot easier. Same thing with Shinzen-style noting and counting breaths. So I really like the idea of a feedback loop, i.e. gotta note something that proves I'm actually paying attention. This seemed to work really well in the driving exercise.

I think I'm going to try some sessions where I'm going to limit the noting to just a few different things, with enough occurances that I don't get lost, but also enough variation that auto-pilot can't take over. Will have to see what those will be, though.

By the way Rob, you mentioned mind states, and I think I'm already vague on just what those are. I've read examples and various different explanations, but I can't seem to grasp just how to actually pinpoint those. Aren't those fabrications?

I also have the same issue with certain instructions for samatha practice. I've seen instructions that say focus on the breath at the nostrils, but they also specifically say NOT to focus on the sensations of the breath at the nostrils. Well if not for sensations, how else would I know a breath was there? Are the instructions to focus on the mental conception of an incoming breath? How do you focus on that? And what does it have to do with the nostrils?

Mind-states can be any mood or emotion: angry, joyous, alert, sad, confused, sleepy, annoyed, dreamy, tense, blank, frustrated, open, tight, spacey, delirious, contented... anything that's an overall "texture" of your mind in a moment.

It really is the hardest of the four groups, since you're deep "inside" that mood or emotion as you're trying to note it.

Also, it is the one that you most want to manipulate, especially when you are trying to be a good meditator, and are afraid to admit that you are "confused", "blank", "sleepy", or "frustrated", even though those are what we are, for almost all of the time, at the outset

Nostrils: Different schools have different (passionately-held) ideas about the "samatha spot", with the leading contenders being either nostrils or abdomen. I spent quite a few years flipping between them! I don't think it matters a whole lot, unless you are doing real old-school intense jhana practice.

I'm not an expert on this, but for the "nostril" school, this kind of intense samatha practice involves following the breath until a "sign" (nimitta) arises- something either visual or mental - that indicates that you're deeply absorbed.

But, for basic, foundational samatha, just counting your breath to ten does very nicely.

Do you feel that you know, from experience, what "access concentration" is? By your descripitons, I am sure you have experienced it, and If so, it means you are already doing the samatha exercises right. It's that moment in a sitting when you feel that hey! suddenly, your mental noise has quieted down a notch.

Check out Kenneth's page on the subject: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Access+Concentration

Yes, I've had access concentration at times, but most of the time I just don't seem to get there, or maybe only for a couple of minutes. Only rarely longer than that. In that regard, overall, there doesn't seem to be a lot of progress in my formal practice. Mostly just ups and downs. I really think it's a momentum thing.

That's by the way why I was noting streetlights etc. Probably not that useful for objectifying sensations, but it was strictly meant as a way to get a workable measure of mindfulness and concentration off the ground. Really just any amount of stable present-moment attention to get a foot in the door. And it worked while it lasted, it gave me probably the most stable attention I've ever had outside of a retreat, that I could direct at anything I wanted.

After my previous post, I went for an hourlong drive just to try it again. It took some getting into, but after a while things got started again somewhat. I really just need to find a way to do something similar on the cushion. KF-style noting is the best option I can think of. But in a way that I don't twist myself in a knot about vocabulary . Seems like such a silly problem as I'm writing this. And I should probably stick to the first foundation for a while. Anyway, I'll try some things in the next days and see what comes up.

I think the streetlight exercise is a great idea! That kind of inventiveness is more valuable than adhering to a particular technique. If it works, use it.

And also, exercises that build open, wide, peripheral perception become extremely valuable, further down the path.

Personally, when I really "get" a particular trick or technique, it works for about 5 days, then it starts to harden into an ideology, and then I lose faith in it. It's happened so often, that I now treat it as a little joke with myself. I try to just be open to the next inspiration.

You can progress in insight without "mastery" of any one technique. Anything that develops either concentration or insight, and that keeps you interested from one day to the next, is the best practice.

Cheers Rob. Well, since my previous post, I've had two sits where I did out-loud noting, and it actually became quite hard to overlook mind states. Because I kept getting annoyed, impatient and wanting to get up for some reason. So I guess it's doing something . I couldn't help but note those. Occasionally I also had to laugh about it, so I noted "humor".

Also my eyes kept opening and I wouldn't even realize it immediately. But as soon as I did, I'd note seeing. If a silence fell for whatever reason, I would either note a couple of breaths, or catch myself imagining what I would write about it here, and note that. Or on one occasion I got drawn into a nice open stillness for a short while, and I noted that. I decided not to care at all about pace. And on the occasion that I couldn't think of an adequate word, I'd just note it as "sensation".

Later it occured to me to note the feeling tone of "sensations" that I didn't have a better word for, and also for anything else where feeling tone was easily discernable. But for there rest I also decided not to worry too much about which of the foundations I was currently noting. I seem to be covering them well enough for now. So I'll just see what happens in 5 days .

With regards to the wide visual focus, I had been practicing that occasionally before I ever started meditating. It's difficult to maintain and I don't always get there, but it was a good way to improve my responsiveness to traffic, and ability to anticipate, etc. When I discovered KFD earlier this year, at some point I found a couple of threads about the different modes of awareness in the first four jhanas. Which if I remember correctly are (1) one-pointed, (2) donut hole, (3) donut edge, (4) all of it. And that seems to correspond somewhat with how I practice establishing a wide field of vision.

First I look at something straight ahead. Then I defocus, usually by trying to look through it (as opposed to going cross-eyed). Then I try to focus the awareness on the outermost edges of my visual field (at this point I don't really care about the ocular focus anymore). And then I try to include more and more towards the middle without losing the edges. Although as far as I know, even if I could maintain it comfortably for a while (which wasn't often), I don't think it ever got me into any jhanas. I guess because there wasn't much of a stable attention on anything specific, and I imagine that would take a whole lot more consistent practice as well.