Alex's experiment with the grounding of emotions

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Interesting experience tonight - EE, PCE or something else?

After about 20 minutes of apperception, going back and forth between 5th jhana and actualized sensations and feelings, the body felt more and more transparent with less and less sense of self. Then something strange happened: everything became very bright, sharp and crispy. No thoughts, nor affective feelings, no sense of self at all. But blissful pulsing sensations. Not like the 2nd or 3rd jhana. Something else. Everything felt magical, vibrating with this bright bliss that seemed to infuse the totality of what is. It was so surprising and intense that I soon lost it, getting back to apperceptive mode.
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I would say from my own similar experience, that you are on the right track. Keep doing that!

"I would say from my own similar experience, that you are on the right track. Keep doing that!"


Ok, perfect. Thanks.

What I did myself was work out, through playing with cause and effect in the territory you are describing, what caused apperception to continue for longer moments. When I sort of saw things in just the right way, the sense of "being" did not arise for longer and longer stretches, and if "being" was seen to arise again, it was actualized quite quickly with the actual aspect of the arupa jhana juxtaposing it.

In one of those long stretches of just apperception of the 7th's nothingness perspective, there was a sudden downward movement in the middle of the brain towards the back where the neck meets the skull. A ripping motion that had very similar characteristics to a cessation moment though I am not sure if there was a cessation. It certainly reminded me of a path moment from the past. It left the baseline as described above.

"Thanks very interesting In my understanding "luminous" is not to be taken literally in this context, but refers to clarity or purity of attention/awareness rather than anything like a phenomenon of luminosity. What about the "out from control" aspect? In the state experience I am referring too which is ultra subtle appreciation of the natural state, there is a distinct feeling that bodily movements and vocalizations happen spontaneously on their own, like in the full blown natural state. Does this out-from-control aspect characterize your current baseline?"

The day before the shift, the actualizing of "being", as it arose as whatever manifestation, became what I would say was "out from control". That is, it just happened automatically without any forced intention to do so. It was like a PCE in a sense, as the baseline then was so close to it, it was indistinguishable except for the short bursts of "being" which were actualized as soon as they arose. There was a sense of inevitability and yes, there was no sense of a 'doer' doing the actions. It was all happening by itself.

I went to bed so peaceful and woke up the same. Several hours after waking up, I sat in bed to sit in the arupa jhanas and look a little closer at what was being actualized automatically. That is when the shift happened.

Yes, now it's like it's a disembodied voice and the hands that type are typing by themselves, cognising and producing language all by themselves, no sense of agency whatsoever. This is the base line. No sense of anything as a 'doer'. There is just doing and no short bursts of "being" to actualize as that stopped when the shift happened.

Nikolai - do you think people would be able to tell a big change in your personality? Do you recognize skillfulness of behavior any more? Do you think you will adjust anything about your behavior or is it all momentum/past conditioning at this point? I ask because 'I' am basically fine in most moments now and no one is the wiser, so not sure how far I should shoot for.

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Yes, now it's like it's a disembodied voice and the hands that type are typing by themselves, cognising and producing language all by themselves, no sense of agency whatsoever. This is the base line. No sense of anything as a 'doer'. There is just doing and no short bursts of "being" to actualize as that stopped when the shift happened.
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a.w.e.s.o.m.e. :-0

"Nikolai - do you think people would be able to tell a big change in your personality? Do you recognize skillfulness of behavior any more? Do you think you will adjust anything about your behavior or is it all momentum/past conditioning at this point? I ask because 'I' am basically fine in most moments now and no one is the wiser, so not sure how far I should shoot for."

My wife is noticeably happier with my lack of any mood swings. I have not told her of any changes but our relationship is better than ever. She has not said anything to me about seeming different. My baseline has been moving towards this over the whole of this year. So my behaviour has shifted too over the same time. Perhaps she will notice later on down the track.

I do notice a change in the way I write. I see how the habit of communicating depended on affect a lot and now some ways I still write like seem inadequate. I see myself gradually changing the means of communicating to write clearer and leave out previously habitually emotive ways of writing, all for the sake of clarity.

At work, no-one is the wiser as my demeanor has always been calm for the past year or so. Maybe Owen has seen a difference in our chats. I don't know.

When chatting with people in person, I am more aware of what the other person is saying as there is no 'I' with soemthing at stake and possibly muddying up what is cognised via a filter of affective judgement.

I haven't had to adjust my behaviour at all yet except for the natural tendency to pay closer attention to what people say to me. I don't have any affective intuition to tell me things that it used to as it no longer is arising, at least thus far. But it hasn't been a problem.

Any sense of a flow of time is absent so shortly after the shift, I spent many, many hours sitting in bed without realising so much time had passed. But it doesn't seem to be a problem, as a watch handy keeps my on schedule.

As to what you should shoot for, that would have to be purely your decision as i believe the pure intent to end the suffering 'I' was not ok with, was key.

"a.w.e.s.o.m.e. :-0"

Agreed!! Very cool. Now that's what I call a high bar. If it is stable and does not impair functioning in routine life, but rather enhances it, then that sounds more like the classic or traditional, real enlightenment. Not the lesser stages leading to it. However, we may discover that the process goes on infinitely. But at least the bar or minimum standard attached to the word is there - complete freedom, clarity of realization of the nature of things, and complete absence of a separate me and its suffering.

edit for clarity.

This is wonderful, Nikolai! And I am convinced that this is clearly what the Buddha discovered under the bodhi tree. Very few people are living in this state, and few have documented it. I think of Bernadette Roberts who described it in minute details in her book 'What is Self?' In her case however, the state of 'No-Self' clicked more or less spontaneously, 14 years after the transforming union (that we would call technical 4th path).

If few have documented it, fewer have clearly explained how to get there. In your recent quotes you have mentioned several Pali suttas in which the Buddha seems to specifically address this stage of the path. As far as I can tell, after just a week of practice, the techniques and strategies suggested on your HP blog do work for anyone who can access the arupa jhanas. For me at least, your method is the clearest and the most practical.

All those interested by this particular path may now have to join their efforts to clearly describe how it works and what are the stages, experiences and challenges on the way to total freedom.

Since Mahamudra is becoming fashionable on KFDh, I would recommend the following manual for those interested by this approach:

www.mahamudracenter.org/mmcmembermeditationguide.pdf

Page 95 "Self and Others", deals with "that which establishes and sustains or clings to 'I', 'me' or 'self':

"Discern the intrinsic nature of that which establishes and sustains or clings to '˜I' or '˜me' or '˜self.'
Discern the intrinsic nature of that which establishes and sustains or clings to others."

The instructions are rather concise but they boil around *actualizing* sensations and feelings, seeing clearly how the sense of self arises, it sustained and vanishes.

""a.w.e.s.o.m.e. :-0"

Agreed!! Very cool. Now that's what I call a high bar. If it is stable and does not impair functioning in routine life, but rather enhances it, then that sounds more like the classic or traditional, real enlightenment. Not the lesser stages leading to it. However, we may discover that the process goes on infinitely. But at least the bar or minimum standard attached to the word is there - complete freedom, clarity of realization of the nature of things, and complete absence of a separate me and its suffering.

edit for clarity."

I can really get behind these two points Adam! If there are any lessons to be taken away from these last few years of pragmatic dharma certainly these are among them. Set the bar high-- if it's possible for Nik and others, it's possible for anyone with the right attitude and approach. And there's no reason to suppose that further things aren't possible, or that approached by different routes, AF/Arhatship might not display varied characteristics of some kind with a commonality in terms of ongoing stable liberation from reactive emotivity and experiential dullness.

We are seeing the validation by contemporary practitioners of traditional high-bar *liberation*. Traditions such as Vajrayana and Taoism, which seem to know of this stage well, report further possibilities. Not long ago in our community this high bar fetter free liberation was dismissed as myth. What more might we discover if we drop our assumptions and explore?

I have been keeping a journal of the changes since the shift day to day at the HP forum in the practice journal section for anyone interested. There is more detail as to what has been happening. There does seem to be a deepening and continued development which is occurring without anyone's input.

Thanks, Nick! I definitely notice a change in your comments and style.

@Alex --

"Continue until you achieve an inmost certainty that all dualities (self or other) or trinities (essence, nature, characteristics) are just a manifestation of mind, which itself is just a continuous self-releasing self-awareness."

Nice manual

"I can really get behind these two points Adam! If there are any lessons to be taken away from these last few years of pragmatic dharma certainly these are among them. Set the bar high-- if it's possible for Nik and others, it's possible for anyone with the right attitude and approach."

YES.

Hey Nik!

Have you started posting anywhere regularly on your new stage or way of experiencing yet? I'd love to see you document your daily life experience and meditation experiences somewhere. Perhaps a new practice journal?

Adam.

Last night, I realized one more that making an effort to get into apperception is precisely that which prevents it from arising on its own. As long as we try to look, or be mindful of something, we crystalize the illusory sense of a doer. I therefore decided to repeat "what is it that is seeing?" while gazing at the wall. The question answers itself. No one is seeing, because seeing is happening on its own. No one can prevent seeing from happening. The senses do their thing and don't need a puppet-master to do their job. Even awareness, non-dual or not, does its own thing. There is no ghost in the shell. The more this becomes obvious, the more apperception becomes a natural default state.

The *knower* and the *doer* are the two thieves pretending to run the show. I realize also that, for years, I had been investigating the *knower*. It is now time to investigate thoroughly the sense of a *doer*. Observing the *doer* is very tricky, simply because doing anything to debunk the *doer* is being the *doer*. Best is therefore to proceed indirectly and observe the sensations and feelings that manifest as a sense of wanting to do, avoid or gain something. As an example, on may remain absolutely still and observe the sensations and feelings manifesting as boredom, unease, intention to move, change position, scratch, change practice, etc. One may also attend to the sensations and feelings manifesting the desire to do and achieve something.

The great thing about using the arupa jhanas to highlight the affective feelings and sensations conspiring to create an illusory sense of self, is that we know that the these arupa jhanas are also subtle objects. We therefore avoid the trap of identifying with the Witness (6th Jhana), assuming that that the 6th Jhana is the *cognizing emptiness* described by Dzogchen and other non-dual traditions. Best at this stage is to let go of any identification with awareness, and on the contrary to rely on the senses that continue to function on their own, even when the sense of self has completely vanished.

We had assumed that the problem was the body and the senses, and that spirituality was about realizing that we are pure consciousness, non-dual awareness, etc. Although this is true up to a certain stage, it also starts to become the greatest obstacle on the way to complete liberation from becoming. Those who went beyond the beyond tell us that "what remains beyond self is obviously the body and the senses-now, 'pure' sensory perception" (Bernadette Roberts ,'What is Self?, p. 70).

And this is also the wrong understand that I still see around about Mahamudra, Dzogchen and some Zen traditions. It is not about seeing the mind, hearing what cannot be heard, noticing awareness, or noting this or that, but only about *allowing everything to be as it is*.

Tilopa's 'Six Words of Advice' summing up Mahamudra are simply "don't recall, don't imagine, don't think, don't examine, don't control, rest". It is that simple!

The problem is that these instructions sound that the smart-ass wisdom quotes that you read everyday on Twitter. "How to not do?" is the real issue. The best way is probably to allow the sense to do their thing. To allow seeing to happen by itself, without a *knower* or a *doer* doing the seeing. Adhyashanti also suggests asking the question "what happens when I allow everything to be as it is?" from time to time. True meditation then becomes the answer to the question.

What also seems to work is to ask "who is seeing and hearing?" to realize again and again that no entity is doing the seeing and hearing, that no one is aware; that awareness, consciousness, seeing, hearing, feeling cannot be stopped or controlled. That no *doer* or *knower* is required to hear and see. That it is a process that goes on on its own, like the blossoming of roses, or the growth of bad weeds.

My first Zen teacher didn't rely on maps and models of enlightenment. I realize however that his traditional approach was't that bad. The idea is to test one's understanding against the Buddhist teachings. As an example, he would advise me to pick a text from Dogen, -let's say the Genjokoan- and test my realization against it. If everything became perfectly clear, I would have to take another one, or a sutra. If something remained obscure, I simply had to go back to the cushion.

I realize that this allows one to evaluate one's progress, while keeping oneself aware of the fact that there is always a deeper and subtler level of understanding/realization. Proceeding in this manner, one is never *done* but always moving through endless layers of delusion, actualizing enlightenment.

Thank you Alex for you insightful and profound analysis!

Gratitude

My first Zen Master didn't give me any instructions at all. I went into the Zendo, they brought me a cushion, I sat down, he smiled at me and I sat there for 2 hours. I moved when I felt to and with time the need to move disappeared and I sat there like all the other 50. I came back every day for 2 months. One day I talked to a student in the pause and he told me to watch my breath and stop thinking. From there I became confused about how exactly and what and why and stopped meditating.
20 years later I talked to the Master and he said: "Giving instructions is like a surgeon cutting into healthy flesh." To tell a mind about the mind from the position of an Ego is a difficult and fine art. I wonder where I would be if I would have never gotten any instructions and just kept on meditating Maybe "knower" and "doer" would have simply faded away.... or maybe not

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The *knower* and the *doer* are the two thieves pretending to run the show. I realize also that, for years, I had been investigating the *knower*. It is now time to investigate thoroughly the sense of a *doer*. Observing the *doer* is very tricky, simply because doing anything to debunk the *doer* is being the *doer*. Best is therefore to proceed indirectly and observe the sensations and feelings that manifest as a sense of wanting to do, avoid or gain something. As an example, on may remain absolutely still and observe the sensations and feelings manifesting as boredom, unease, intention to move, change position, scratch, change practice, etc. One may also attend to the sensations and feelings manifesting the desire to do and achieve something.
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Alex this point about investigating the "doer" is key for me too at this time. It is this investigation that, conducted well, leads me to regular experience of non-doing, of spontaneity, out-from-control, what I call "natural activity".

I've found while it's powerful to do this during sits it's especially effective during daily life (during sits I focus more on actualizing sensations/appreciating suchness). I investigate the resistance/reification complexes which compound as for me especially laziness or driveness-- basically I cultivate discernment between the illusion of effort (I must do this, I don't want to do this, I can do this if I push harder) and the bare sensations of movement (including the actual energy level of the body). It leads to a state of "being behind the activity", just relaxing and seeing how unobstructed the circuit can be between *seeing* and *doing* the next practical thing, all the while monitoring these obstructing sensations of effort/resistance. This leads reliably to glimpses of undistorted activity-- word deed and thought happening completely on their own without tension/effort/me.

Hi Alex,

I found that there were at least two separate "doers", one associated with mental / cognitive doing (associated with feelings manifesting especially in the throat region and sometimes head region), and one associated with preferential doing (associated with feelings manifesting especially in the solar plexus).

Looking at the throat feelings when they came up (which was all the time at a certain point) went far towards undoing the first, but the second is trickier because I would have to wait for the right feelings to come up, which is not frequent. Staring at a wall, waiting to feel the impulse to move so as to actualize it, sounds like a good method,

(For me this is less paradoxical than it sounds, because throat-doer, who is mostly seen through, works on undermining solar plexus-doer, no problem. And the knower, located in the head, worked to undermine the throat-doer with minimal help from the two doers, again no problem.)

(Your Zen teacher's method sounds excellent. Did he correct you if you thought you had the right understanding but he thought otherwise?)