Laurel's practice

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So, I have a question -- have we gone from noting being the practice of choice for pre-path and early path yogis to direct mode? Really?

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I was about to ask the same thing, b/c (I'm embarrassed to say) I don't even know how to do direct mode. I'm listening to Kenneth's Spiritual Materialism talk as I type this in an effort at getting a clue. But I'm going to talk to him tomorrow, and maybe I'll get a clue then.

EDIT: Okay, I gather it's just asking, "How does this feel in the body," although the answer seems to be some sort of noting? I hate to be so out of it, but there it is.

I asked the question because I note (pun intended) some confusion about this, among other things. Somehow direct mode has become the pretty girl at the high school dance

I do not recommend direct mode for pre-path yogis (edit - at least not as the main body of your practice). Noting, concentration, etc. are the way forward, and when you take that far enough, direct mode (among other things) start to make more sense.

Direct mode did help me deal with anxiety pre-fourth path, but in the end, it was the standard practices that propelled me forward.

Edit - it also helps to note mind-states and to become quite good at doing that (the same goes for thoughts). Developing this skill was a huge leap forward for me in terms of developing equanimity in the face of such things.

Chris - Not at all. The only reason I mentioned this in the first place was as an example to Laurel from my own experience of sitting with an unpleasant sensation, and the reason I did it myself was because it was too late at night to go a dentist and so this idea, which I had previously heard Brahm talk about, seemed as viable a method of dealing with the pain as it would have been to take two painkillers and sit it out till morning. Needless to say, should someone have a problem of the dental variety then the appropriate professional should be contacted.

Direct mode - I specifically stated that this approach worked for ME when dealing with anxiety and offered it as a suggestion to Laurel based on that. I have no idea where the issue with suggesting DM comes from, it was specific to the matter at hand and in no way intended to cause confusion. We're talking about pragmatic dharma, I'm not aware of any sort of restriction or recommendations on the use of certain techniques by pre/early path yogis, although I absolutely 100% agree that noting and concentration is what gets the job done and is what worked for me. (See Mu's note on mindstates as this is really, really useful).

Laurel - I apologize if I caused any confusion, I wrongly assumed that you were familiar with direct mode. All it is is a practice of paying attention to how emotions feel within the body by asking "How does this feel in the body?" and paying attention to where the focus is physically, nothing complicated but it's not, as far as I know, a practice which is necessarily conducive to gaining 1st path. As everyone's been saying (including me, Chris ; ) ) note, note. note. note and note some more! You're in a great position to make a push forward into Equanimity if you keep doing what you're doing.

"*HUG*"

Thanks, Justin, and all of you. This group is wonderful.

"Laurel - I apologize if I caused any confusion, I wrongly assumed that you were familiar with direct mode. All it is is a practice of paying attention to how emotions feel within the body by asking "How does this feel in the body?" and paying attention to where the focus is physically, nothing complicated but it's not, as far as I know, a practice which is necessarily conducive to gaining 1st path. As everyone's been saying (including me, Chris ; ) ) note, note. note. note and note some more! You're in a great position to make a push forward into Equanimity if you keep doing what you're doing.
"

Thanks Tommy--I think it's high time I got straight on what DM is, so I'm glad it's cleared up for me now. I think I was under the impression it was some sort of esoteric thing, whereas it's really quite simple, and in fact there are times in daily life when I actually have done that, but I thought it was a variety of noting. I personally think your toothache story is amazing--I of course would have popped a pill, but I think it is a good way to deal with unpleasant sensations.

I assume what all of you can agree on is that noting/concentration is the best practice for pre-path yogis on the cushion, but that we can also employ the direct mode technique when dealing with strong, negative sensations off the cushion.

Tommy and Laurel - well put. You guys are the best.

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I asked the question because I note (pun intended) some confusion about this, among other things. Somehow direct mode has become the pretty girl at the high school dance

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I keep asking her to dance and she keeps turning me down!

Sorry for any confusion - I was not fully informed. Pre-path yogis should do noting practice with some metta (IMHO). Save DM for later, when confusion is a little less of an issue.

But I will reiterate Tommy's point about the cognitive aspects of anxiety - investigate it and you'll see that most often there really is nothing happening in the moment that is producing the anxiety, it's all about the past and future.

Hi Laurel,

Kenneth gives a great description of DM on a few of his youtube videos.
Good to hear Ron mentioning metta, as I think it has great value both on and off the cushion. In the Open Awareness book im reading there are practices just like DM, so it seems to me they have value at whatever rung of the ladder on?!

In fact in kenneths 1st gear meditation advice he says:

I was distracted from the primary object (the rise and fall of the abdomen) by a pain in my leg. I moved my attention to the pain, which then became the object of meditation.

Isnt this very similar...........both noting and DM include bringing attention to sensations in the body, except in noting there is the secondry act of labeling it?!
maybe some clarification would be good (as a pre-pather myself).....dosnt have to be on Laurels page though = )

Ed76, I asked because I assume, rightly or wrongly, that folks here want to get somewhere with their practice. This being Kenneth's message board I'm also assuming that the practice folks aim for is his Three Speed Transmission. So after those assumptions is this -- noting is the key to getting path in Kenneth's teaching. If you want to veer off into some other practice that's your call. After all, we're all adults. We can opt in or opt out at any time.

IMHO, if you want to progress through the Theravada/Mahassi stages of insight I don't think you can find a more efficient way to do that than to pursue the practices Kenneth recommends, in the order he recommends they be done. In order to do that noting probably has to be the number one, number two and number three priorities on a pre-path's ordered list.

That's all I meant, though I didn't explain it adequately.

Thanks Chris.

I didnt realize the sequence of the practices presented in the gears were specific to your stage of development. I always read it as being optional depending on the degree to which you felt embedded in any particular moment. But actually that is a massive help! I wouldnt have got on very well in the army, im not very good at following orders unless I understand every little detail about the whys and wherefores.

I take this as a much need tap on the head with a bamboo stick = )

Thanks I really appreciate the clarity!

Hi Laurel,

An appendix to my post from yesterday: I have been having some success lately by really looking at the tension and constriction in the chest when I notice it, and asking myself, "Is it really where I think it is?" I interpret it right away as being in the chest. But once I start to take it apart, I notice this: it's in the throat, too. It's fed by a pulsing in the back of my neck. It seems to arise with an ache in my leg. And so forth. Sometimes I realize that I can't actually localize it in the chest at all.

So that insight was helpful, but the fact remains that the tension increases as I break it down. As of 2 days ago, I added a new twist: don't just look for the negative or constrictive sensations associated with the tension. At the same time, be open to noticing pleasant bodily sensations arising elsewhere in the body at the same time. I found some relief in that, or at least some nuance that distracted the tension enough to keep it from becoming a feedback-loop.

It's hard to get over the habit of *looking* for painful sensations with a view to suppressing them.

Which, by the way, is probably one of the reasons Direct Mode is useless pre-path- it's just too hard to know if you are truly opening yourself to experience, or still being unconsciouly selective of pleasant or unpleasant feelings. But I speak as someone who has never been interested in DM and who's withholding all thoughts about until post-4th.

Hope that's useful!

Well, I've made a decision for the time being at least, which is to let the anxiety just be where it is and what it is, along with a whole lot of other unpleasant sensations, which I've got in spades these days b/c of Re-Observation, possibly compounded by medication withdrawal. Speaking of which, I'm putting that off for the indefinite future. No point in making things even harder on myself (thanks, Chris!).

I had a lesson with Kenneth today, Mahamudra noting, which he thinks is best for me at this point. Cried a lot, as if this is news. It felt good while I was doing it, but now I feel not so great again, but I'm not going to take it all that seriously. I am beginning to see why maybe DM isn't so great for someone at my stage, b/c if I do start breaking it down even as a physical sensation I'll be wallowing in it. I have a lot of experience feeling this way, and my best bet is not to make too much of a drama over it. I'm going to focus instead on gratitude for all the wonderful things I have going on in my life, not the least of which are Kenneth and all my great teachers on this forum. Here's a shout-out to any timidly lurking beginners out there: the people here are wonderful, compassionate yogis who are unbelievably generous with their time and energy, willing and able to help you on your path. Do not be afraid to start a practice thread and start posting.

Hooray for decisions about how to proceed!

Did two sessions today, one 45 minutes, the other about 40 minutes (didn't quite make it to the finish line). This is new, different, and not my normal routine, so I am not quite sure how it's going. It tends to build in waves and then subside, and I'm noting "listening, listening, listening" for long periods in between, dealing with difficult sensations by saying "release, release, release." This morning was more focused, but this afternoon had more positive notes. Maybe this is because I could hear my parakeet chattering upstairs and I kept noting "love, love, love" . There are few sounds that generate the warm and fuzzies for me like a bird's chatter, especially a parakeet.

I got sleepy this afternoon, noted that b/c I heard my voice stop. A lot of the newness has to do with the fact that I'm really not all that used to out-loud noting at all; did some of it awhile back, but gave way to silent noting, which I tend to prefer. I realize, though, that out-loud noting keeps the focus better most of the time.

I think my Re-Observation today has been mostly of Disgust, because I've been feeling a bit "off". It's better this afternoon than this morning. I've got to get myself on track to keep going and move out of the 10th nana; I don't want to get stuck here!

Don't worry - you're never stuck! (Even if you can't know 'til later!) And if you are, there's always parakeet metta... hee hee...

Well, I sure do feel stuck! I'm beginning to wonder whether my unsettled, distracted, anxious and depressed state of mind lately is at least partly chemical, and I should get back on some sort of supplement. I'm looking at restoring 5-HTP (which boosts serotonin). Can't hurt. The way I'm feeling now is above and beyond my usual unhappiness. I'll keep posting my progress on here.

Are you able to see any pattern in the feelings (anxiety -> discomfort -> disgust -> overwhelmedness ->repeat)?

Could you get into the habit of noting and give us detailed reports on the sorts of sensations you are encountering in a sitting and the order in which they occur. You might want to have a look at Nadav's journal for some inspiration (his earlier entries).

Have you been doing the four foundations noting practice at all? It might help to note body sensations, then feeling tone, then mindstates, then thoughts. This will really help break up the experience and to dis-embed from it. It will also provide the sort of information needed to make a proper diagnosis of where you're at right now in your practice.

Well, I had a lesson with Kenneth Tuesday, and he told me to do the Mahamudra noting in place of the four foundations noting practice, so I've been doing that. It is a practice I am still getting used to. I will report now on the session I just had: it was 45 minutes, and I began with a resolve to sit for the entire practice. I also have made a larger resolve to get stream-entry by the end of the year, and to work on whatever I have to to get there. I think Kenneth (from what I understand) wants this practice to help me over the hurdle of the dukkha nanas, which are pressing so hard right now.

I began with lots of listening, listening, listening, some hearing, hearing, hearing. When something feels contricted I note release, release, release. That went on for some time, then I felt myself noting peace, peace. Lots of that, actually. Then I felt increasing lightness, even some bliss for awhile, then back again to listening, listening. At about the halfway point--and this has happened the three times I've done this on my own--I get the urge to stop; for some reason or other, it feels threatening to me, maybe the intimacy of the practice. Maybe I just fear the quiet. It is an irony that I prefer the noise of my own suffering to this kind of calm. I just kept saying release, release, release. I peeked at the clock a few times. I smiled at myself doing that. Then the relaxation returned, and the peace. There were some notations of safety, safety, and a few of love (my sweet little birds were chattering again).

During the day: it changes from day to day, but for the past couple of days there's distraction, frustration with the distraction, self-loathing, depression, and desire to just give up. Not a nice sequence at all.

Understood. Kenneth is the guy you should be listening to.

I would hazard to guess that the urge to stop corresponds to the fear nana... however I could be totally wrong.

It does seem that way to me. I can sense that what I fear is relinquishing my everyday understanding of myself. The desire to stop occurs just after I've had a sense of expansiveness, quiet, and even vast spaciousness, deep calm and peace.

Many years ago, I experienced something like it; at the time I was engaged with a Christian mystical approach, and I felt what seemed like the beginnings of absorption in God. I became frightened, and actually said, "Not yet." This isn't as intense, but it's along the same lines.

I've been getting interested in the Mahamudra approach as well - the few times I have tried to cultivate Mahamudra without noting it tells me there is something very special there...

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Yes I hit fear many years ago as well, same sort of thing, I used to sit and follow the breath in the whole body when I was ~17 or so and after a few months of that, having some openings and whatnot I remember hitting a wall of fear so suddenly that I thought my heart was going to burst out of my chest!
I have to wonder if I had a teacher back then who could tell me -'thats normal, now you need to investigate just what this fear *is* to progress..', how things would have gone.

"It does seem that way to me. I can sense that what I fear is relinquishing my everyday understanding of myself. The desire to stop occurs just after I've had a sense of expansiveness, quiet, and even vast spaciousness, deep calm and peace.

Many years ago, I experienced something like it; at the time I was engaged with a Christian mystical approach, and I felt what seemed like the beginnings of absorption in God. I became frightened, and actually said, "Not yet." This isn't as intense, but it's along the same lines. "

Hi JLaurelC,

Do you think that the 'i' that is frightened could be manifesting from this ' sense of expansiveness, quite, vast spaciousness of deep calm and peace ' ? An illusion created by the combination of the cognitive mind, and the senses.

Might be worth thinking about. Steve.

"Do you think that the 'i' that is frightened could be manifesting from this ' sense of expansiveness, quite, vast spaciousness of deep calm and peace ' ? An illusion created by the combination of the cognitive mind, and the senses."

I don't know; I don't think I really understand what you're asking. Do you mean that both the sense of expansiveness and the frightened "i" are illusions? Or just the fearful "i"? And if the latter, how could an illusion manifest from something that is not an illusion? I'm going to keep as aware as I can, just the same.

Last night I noted for about 30 minutes, kept checking the clock and even the timer at one point. If anything, I found it harder to keep it up for 30 minutes than for 45, because I kept imagining that I was almost done, whereas when I am doing it for a longer time I eventually give up and settle down. From now on, though, I'm going to turn the clock around, and put the timer where I can't get to it until it's over. I did succeed in getting settled for a little while, although not into the expansiveness I described before. But I notice that the practice leads on its own to a place of peace.

This morning, doing my morning stretches, I had a vexatious storyline lodged in my brain; I reminded myself of my resolve to get stream entry by the end of the year and thought, is this contributing to that goal? and then began noting. It was a relief. It was simply noting stretching, stretching, hearing, thinking, planning, stretching, and whatnot, nothing detailed, but constant. I will do this whenever I can throughout the day.

"I don't know; I don't think I really understand what you're asking..."

I know folks are trying to help you with those kinds of suggestions, but wondering about "where" the "I" is and what it it and how it comes about will become, eventually, a natural part of your practice. For now I'd say the best approach is to stick to exactly what Kenneth suggested to you, Laurel.

Again, JMHO.