fr Jack

I have been meditating for many years but this noting practice has rejuvenated my practice. I am doing pair noting for 45-60 minutes once a week with Duncan that has helped a lot. At first it helped me with the technique of noting. Lately it has turned into a worthy practice in itself. Reading your meditation journals has also proved very helpful.

My daily practice is 60 minutes in the morning starting with 15-20 minutes samatha using the breath followed by vipassana noting. I also usually do 30 minutes either samatha or noting at night. I note the 4 Foundations with some witness noting thrown in, i.e., itch, neutral, pain, unpleasant, investigating mind, it's pain-ing, unpleasant, aversion.. Most everything that arises goes away with one noting. I usually don't move at all during meditation except once or twice to adjust my posture. This causes pains in my knee and butt which fascinates me. If I do move I am mindful throughout.

I notice reading the journals on this list that most if not all people avoid noting the breath along with everything else. For me, sometimes the stretching and release or the in and out of the breath takes the foreground. Is there a reason for people not mentioning breath sensations during vipassana?

Two times during the last two weeks I entered a space during vipassana meditation where time seemed to slow way down and any sense of self disappeared. It was like being in an enormous cave where phenomena arose and passed away. I still was alert and aware. One time this happened in pair noting. After our noting I asked my partner if he noticed a big time gap and he said no. So the time only expanded internally. Interesting.

My next step is to do more noting at times during the day off the cushion. I do a little of that now but not much.

I thank you all.

jack

Hi Jack,

Welcome! Glad to have you here. Looking forward to reading your journal.

> Is there a reason for people not mentioning breath sensations during vipassana?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do sometimes note the sensations of my breath. The breath, and the sensations from speaking aloud (voice timbre, vibrations in the chest/throat, etc...) are what I sometimes fall back to when I'm sometimes having trouble finding sensations to note. I also fall back to these when I feel like I'm actively searching for stuff to note rather than looking at what just comes up. I'll focus on my breath or voice, and pretty soon, something else will present itself.

Andy

Hiya Jack, welcome on board!

To put my two cents worth in regarding the breath, it's the anchor of any meditation practice for me. I just don't usually mention it in my vipassana notes because there are so many sensations involved in a single cycle, but the breath is a wonderful, wonderful thing to examine and explore so don't stop doing what you're doing!

Your practice sounds good already so it'll be great to see you post some more.

All the best.
- Tommy

Welcome! Looking forward to reading more of your posts.

As I understand it, you don't see much focus on the breath here because Kenneth has been teaching "pure noting" without using the breath as an anchor (like you see in Mahasi's instructions).

Welcome Jack!

Myself, I use the breath for concentration and all other sensations for noting/vipassana.
But it is never pure this or that, always a mix of them. So I think there is always an element of "noting" the breath present even in concentration practice (for me that is).
Also the breath is made up of many sensatoins, like expansion, touch, coldness etc, that can be noted if they "stand out".
/Pejn

Thanks to all for the encouragement. 60 minutes meditating yesterday morning starting with 15 minutes samatha followed by 45 minutes noting. Tried noting while driving later in the day but couldn't make it work. 20 minutes of noting in the evening. Tried 60 minutes this morning starting with 10 minutes of samatha followed by noting. Did doubles and triples. Sometimes I went beyond triples in the following way. Pain, unpleasant, aversion, wanting (to change position). Broke meditation off at 45 minutes. I tried to keep going but couldn't. I tried to treat this point as a learning experience in seeing what was going on but couldn't for some reason.

When noting, I find it awkward and counterproductive for me to block out a class of sensations such as that caused by the breath. I try to stay open to anything that comes up.

Yes, the breath is made up of many sensations. For me, other sensations for instance pain in my thigh might be many sensations-part pressure, part pain, and part burning. No one of these jumps out. For me, the noting word acts as a pointer to the actual sensation. Many times I just use a generic word such as 'sensation' to refer to a complex phenomena. It seems that being too particular in finding just the right word places too much emphasis on the word and tends toward making experience modify to fit the word. Also, some sensations don't seem to match any word. Maybe this will change as I have more noting experience. Any comments? Clarification: when noting I keep a rhythm and say whatever pops into my mind without worrying about getting the correct word.

I'm a beginner myself to noting but practicing it seemed to fix most of the issues of awkwardness and vocabulary. Its true that there are many sensations going on, but I usually pick one at a time - I try to pick one aspect and stay with it until it changes at least before switching, so if I have pulsing tingles creeping up my head I may note pulsing and look at that aspect for a few notes or longer, and at some point it will change or lessen and one of the other aspects like the tingles or pinpricks may be predominate, and I can look at that and see it change. Its the mind stuff that seems to be toughest for me to note, but seems to be very transformative when done right.

Something that was useful to me when I got started with noting was Shinzen Young's Touch-Sight-Sound-Feel-Image-Talk approach. See www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Getting%20the%20Lingo.pdf

It lays out a pretty precise framework for noting pretty much anything that can come up.

"Something that was useful to me when I got started with noting was Shinzen Young's Touch-Sight-Sound-Feel-Image-Talk approach. See www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Getting%20the%20Lingo.pdf

It lays out a pretty precise framework for noting pretty much anything that can come up.

"

Andy, thanks for sending this. It is very interesting but so far I can't figure it out. I think it needs a context I don't have. Reading more on Shinzen Young's website will probably let me understand it better. For now, KF's system is adequate.

Started 60 minute sit yesterday morning. Began with 15 minutes breath samatha. Then went into vipassana noting. Broke off after 30 minutes with pain in my chest like heatburn. (I have had recent physical and it is not my heart.) Stayed with the pain as long as I could. 45 minute pair noting last night.

60 minute sitting this morning. 5 minutes noting 3rd Foundation. 5 minutes noting 4th Foundation. 10 minute breath samatha. Ending with 40 minute vipassana noting. A lot of the noting was pain/unpleasant in different parts of my body. After I finished sitting I kept noting for maybe 10 minutes while going about my business.

Keeping trucking along.

jack

Yesterday I intended to sit for 60 minutes in the morning but aversion/restlessness or whatever hit me at 30 minutes and I broke it off. I lasted as long as I could. This aversion or whatever has been hitting me every once and awhile when I intend to sit for longer times. It has me fascinated Can't find the right words for it. I welcome it so I can investigate it further. Did 30 minutes at night.

I saw a reference in anothe post about Infram's talks at Brown U. See it at alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/dr-...rdcore-dharma-video/ . It made the path much clearer. Great stuff.

jack

"Yesterday I intended to sit for 60 minutes in the morning but aversion/restlessness or whatever hit me at 30 minutes and I broke it off. I lasted as long as I could. This aversion or whatever has been hitting me every once and awhile when I intend to sit for longer times. It has me fascinated Can't find the right words for it. I welcome it so I can investigate it further. Did 30 minutes at night.

I saw a reference in anothe post about Infram's talks at Brown U. See it at alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/dr-...rdcore-dharma-video/ . It made the path much clearer. Great stuff.

jack"

That 30 (or 40) minute adversion/restlessness thing comes up a lot for me, too. I believe I'm working through the dark night stages when I hit that point. Keeping the map in mind helps me stay on the cushion and keep noting. Since you liked the ingram video, remember what he says about re-observation: the right technique is any technique that keeps you on the cushion during this rough patch. I remind myself that either all the hard-to-describe aversion will fall apart and equanimity will arise which is great... or it the negative states will continue and if I clearly see them it will be purifying in itself. Easy to say, but so hard to do when that state dominates!

"That 30 (or 40) minute adversion/restlessness thing comes up a lot for me, too. I believe I'm working through the dark night stages when I hit that point. Keeping the map in mind helps me stay on the cushion and keep noting. Since you liked the ingram video, remember what he says about re-observation: the right technique is any technique that keeps you on the cushion during this rough patch. I remind myself that either all the hard-to-describe aversion will fall apart and equanimity will arise which is great... or it the negative states will continue and if I clearly see them it will be purifying in itself. Easy to say, but so hard to do when that state dominates!
"

Beta, thanks for the response. It is very useful. Can't wait to try it.

At what point does one get off the cushion (metaphorically) during this period? I sometimes open my eyes, check my watch and break posture which all helps. To answer my own question, maybe staying on the cushion means keeping up mindfulness not matter what you do. Sound right?

jack

Well, I think technically there is no getting off the cushion during a practice session. If I have carved out 60 minutes to sit and that time really is available and there are no other issues... then not doing the practice and/or forgetting the primary object -- as well as indulging in distractions or getting up early -- is actually a failure. Harsh, but I have to admit it to myself. I'm not a perfect practioner and I do fall into all of these types of distractions, but I don't want to let myself off the hook either.

(There has to be flexibility if there might be other issues... for example last month this was happening (the 40 minute wall) while I was also nursing a body injury... I really couldn't tell if my injury was flairing up because my mind/body was just using anything to distract me and get me off the cushion. Last month I erred on the get up side.)

But if nothing is wrong, here's my thinking... if I'm hitting a wall, then that's >exactly< what I need to work on seeing. If I'm not able to note/label/see those sensations that are causing aversion then that will forever be my blindspot. So many insights (not just the big path moments) come from looking at these reflexive avoidances... and the part of me that wants to continue to be seen as protected/solid/constant will keep struggling and suffering until it just looks squarely at what is being avoided.

It's wasting all that 30-40 minutes of prepatory time to get to the crux.... and then walk away.

Easier said than done, for sure.

Sometimes it really gets to be a big, not understood force that tells me to get up. Obviously something big needs to be gone through. As I said, I will keep working on it.

On another note, I got an idea from Duncan to download a metronome and record several MP3 files on my portable MP3 player. I am going to try noting along with a one beat a second file and a beat every 1.5 seconds file.

jack