Christianity and Path

Hi everyone,

I'm really curious about people's thoughts on how a Christian would describe the Paths?

I had an incredibly life changing experience happen to me last June. I spent the entire day reading the Bible which I didn't typically do all then. I had read a book on Christian mysticism and read a huge portion of the new testament. I had deeper and deeper insight progressively throughout the day into the problem of dualism. Essentially the "Mosaic Law" made people aware of sin, and their separation from God. To try and meet the law would be comparable to trying to lift yourself up by your belt. So the intention of the law is make people realize their distance from God but didn't solve anything. Fast forward in time to the life of Christ, who sacrificed this nature as a perfect offering once and for all. Christs death was our death, anyone who believes this, is Alive in Christ as Paul puts it, and is no longer bound by the law or by sin.

So how does one live in the Christ? Exactly how someone was saved in the first place, by grace. Meaning anything you try to do to better your position with God is still striving, and is trying to live under the law again. Or put in dharmic terms, any sort of striving down with the mind is clinging, but from the perspective of awareness the problem, the aversion/clinging is simply seen arising and passing away without identifying as self.

I really began to move deeper and deeper into observing self until I questioned "Who is it that desires God?" If I am incapable of desiring God with my own power who is it that desire Him? Something really began to open up and I felt a slight sense of impersonality appear, like I was moving further back beyond self.

Something completely clicked and I lost it, I started crying and laughing, crying because I had missed something so obvious my entire life, and laughing because I couldn't believe how simple it was. I saw that resisting God was completely impossible, how could I ever escape? Even for one second, there was never a second he wasn't fully present. On the vibratory level I could feel my heart expanding like a baloon, there was this sense of an enormous burden falling off my back. I felt in union with God like a mirror being pointed at another mirrior. It wasn't a nondual experience, but it felt like God in me, in union with God outside me, but still subject/object distinction.

It also felt like absolutely 100%, everything was right and how it should be, all of creation felt like it was an enormous out pouring of God's love. Like the seperation had to exist so that we can come back into unity which couldn't exist any other way.

it's been about 8 months now, and the things that fell away at that point are still gone. There's a lot of things that I just can't get stuck by anymore.

This sounds like what's called the Arising & Passing Event, I'll leave it to others more experienced in this system to confirm or refute this but it appears to fit the descriptions given by many people, albeit within a Christian context since this seems to be the paradigm you're most intimate with. There's actually a crossover of terminology from Christianity used in these Path's, specifically the Dark Night which, as you probably know already, is the phrase coined by St. John of the Cross to describe that "spiritual dryness" experienced by everyone who pursues direct experience.

The experience of these stages is generally very idiosyncratic, but they exhibit certain characteristics which appear to be universal to every practitioner. It's also possible to cross the A&P with no formal experience of meditation so there's every chance that this is exactly what's happened, particularly if you've been contemplating things such as duality, fundamental suffering and the like.

I hope this is of some use to you but I'm sure there's far more knowledgeable people than myself to discuss this with you further. Take care of yourself and practice well.

Thanks Tommy that is really helpful, it actually makes more sense why for a couple months afterwards there was so much clinging and desire to re-experience A&P. Since last month I decided to just start practicing Vipassana since there's so much more information.

On my second 45 min sit I was having kundalini like shocks, there would be a quick flash in the visual field, increased ability to note sensations, and body heat.

I noticed last night, I was very mindful of all that was happening as people were having a conversation and I watched the impermanence and non-self of everything I could. Eventually it felt like everything was 'on one side' all the basic sensations that make up 'I' that were accessible in that moment were noted. 'I' could watch all my tendencies towards clinging and averting just coming and going.

The process of enlightenment seems to be like there is just a stream of phenomena flowing by and we attach to certain things within that. This clumping creates the idea of 'self'

We're creating false hierarchies all the time. And I'm wondering if progressing though the nanas and paths is essentially seeing more clearly just this stream of phenomena. And on a smaller scale, is moving from nana to nana having to do with penetrating to subtler phenomena? I'll explain what I mean.

I was doing self inquiry last night. I tried to see what was observing awareness, its nothing, its like looking beyond the reach of the eyes, what is it? It's not dark, its not light, its just nothing. That's what it felt like, but now I think... well that concept of 'no-thing' was just a concept which was also observed in awareness.

So do I just continue and continue trying to realize more subtle things that I'm hanging the notion of 'self' on until something happens? Are there any things more useful to note for progressing, such as aversions and clingings instead of nit-picking over is this 'projecting thought' or is this 'rehearsing thought'

Even with all the labels, memories, thoughts observed and noted I still feel like I'm the attention that picks out things to attend to within the frame of awareness and is the one who is misperceiving things to be other than a spontaneous flowing of phenomena. I heard a dharma talk about self inquiry that said even attention appears within awareness, but it really really still feels like a separate self.

I spent a lot of time trying to reconcile Christianity with my experience and with other religions, etc. I sort of look at it like this:

"You shall know the Truth (what is happening right now) and the Truth shall set you free"

I figured all conceptuality was secondary truth
that THIS (what is, right now) was it
and if THIS taught you and reconditioned you and you lined up with it (rather than your thoughts, beliefs, what others said, etc.)
then you were one with the Father.

Knowledge of Good and Evil (opposites, categories, division) leads one out of paradise

It seems to be all about Surrender, right here, right now, full stop.

"So do I just continue and continue trying to realize more subtle things that I'm hanging the notion of 'self' on until something happens? Are there any things more useful to note for progressing, such as aversions and clingings instead of nit-picking over is this 'projecting thought' or is this 'rehearsing thought'

"

Hi Jon,

I would quit worrying about what to look at, and just pay attention to what is right in front of you in any given moment. In shouldn't be about looking for anything special or "more useful". If you are looking for something "special" or something "to get rid of" like some so -called "self" or something "to deal with" then you are setting yourself up for some frustration and slippery times ahead. I speak from experience. Just pay attention to WHATEVER has arisen in the moment regardless of what it is. One thing to keep in mind is that no sensation is more special than another sensation. All the same status even the one's that are misread as self. So rather than look for something more special than how the very moment has manifested, just pay attention to how the moment has manifested. Keep doing that and the three C's will become clearer, the whole notion of "self" will become clearer, the nanas will pass by, phenomena that weren't seen before will suddenly be seen clearly and you will progress onwards and upwards. It's not something that can be manipulated much. The only thing to do is pay attention, note what has arisen in the moment, let it go and note whatever else arises. No preferences.

I am of the opinion that there are no "more useful things to note". That seems to be giving importance to one phenomena over another. At 4th path, a yogi realises there really is no phenomenon more important than another. It's all of the same status.
Just my 2 cents

metta,

Nick

Hi Jon,

Deep spiritual insights like this can happen in any tradition. They can even happen in traditions that are not always considered "spiritual", such as various types of psychological work. It seems to occur when doing inquiry not just with your thinking mind, but with the whole of your being. When we live the inquiry -- when we inquire not just with our heads but also in our belly and in our bones -- these "felt shifts" occur. It's a beautiful thing, and I'm really happy that this event has been so meaningful and life changing for you.

Whether or not it was an A&P event is uncertain. It doesn't have to fit in to the Progress of Insight in order for it to be meaningful. I think it's fair to say that your spirituality when through a change in maturity; a "growing up", if you will. As you continue to inquire and to work with your experience in this way, you can expect further development. It doesn't always come about in the same way. In fact, it rarely does. But in my experience, further work brings further understanding and growth.

Thanks for sharing.

Jackson

"
Deep spiritual insights like this can happen in any tradition. [...] It seems to occur when doing inquiry not just with your thinking mind, but with the whole of your being. When we live the inquiry -- when we inquire not just with our heads but also in our belly and in our bones -- these "felt shifts" occur.

Whether or not it was an A&P event is uncertain. It doesn't have to fit in to the Progress of Insight in order for it to be meaningful. [...] As you continue to inquire and to work with your experience in this way, you can expect further development. It doesn't always come about in the same way. In fact, it rarely does. But in my experience, further work brings further understanding and growth.

Thanks for sharing.

Jackson"

Hi Jon! What I find so great about the way Jackson frames this is that he is pointing to what seems to be an ongoing experience for many yogis. In other words, this "whole-being inquiry" which opens up and matures our felt sense of what life is and who we are is like a spiral vehicle that can carry us deeper and deeper into the Path. Most long-time practitioners I know of still go through these shifts, and yet this approach is available at the earliest phases.

In my experience one of the most useful things about the Insight map is that it corrects the tendency to assume that things must continue "feeling better" after such an opening, or to try to "get back" to the dramatic insight. The Path leads ever deeper into this here-and-now! Sounds like you have a lot of wisdom already and are being naturally drawn towards deeper unfolding. And as Nick points out, the great thing is you don't need to look for anything better to look into than whatever is already present here-and-now. This moment is where you enter the path, it's where the path unfolds, and it's the Goal! Hard to believe sometimes but still true.
Best wishes,
-Jake

Thanks everyone! I feel so grateful that this community exists

That's exactly how I look at it mumuwu, unfortunately most religions seem to be trapped in mistaking the finger pointing at the moon for the moon. I've tried to draw this idea out when talking to other Christians, by saying if your with someone you love, you don't spend that time thinking about being with them, you just BE with them, so why exclude God from this?

Thank you Nick for pointing that out, I've spent so much needless time speculating and conceptualizing until I started practicing vipassana. And even still there is this subtle desire to want to progress faster and manipulate the progress.

which comes from the first experience that drew me into Buddhism, it was the first time I tried eating mushrooms. I had a non-dual experience of completely dissolving into this continuous stream of phenomena, it actually looked just like being a film reel moving slowly by, like movement was just an illusion. After that I went into the deepest deepest dark night experience for a couple months and a year later the moment described above brought me out of it. It's only now that I can see clearer that all the replaying of that non-dual experience is simply projecting that happens right now. And is still nothing other than phenomena arising and passing.

"But in my experience, further work brings further understanding and growth." I think this is best, I'm not going to worry about where I'm at and just keep practicing insight with this attitude "Just pay attention to WHATEVER has arisen in the moment regardless of what it is. One thing to keep in mind is that no sensation is more special than another sensation."

Welcome to the psilocybin club

I think that, if it's important to you, it's possible to integrate the teachings of Buddha with those of Jesus. I don't identify with any religious or mystical group myself but I can appreciate Wisdom when I see it, and if you find that the Christian framework is what works for you then more power to you. You seem pretty balanced in your approach and you appear to be an good representation of how Christians can be as accepting and open-minded as any Buddhist, which is wonderful and it's great to be able to see how you work with these techniques.

You may find that the emphasis on your current religious framework loosens as you explore vipassana, or your love of it may become stronger but you'll see how directly truth can be experienced whichever way you cut it.. Your 'shrooms story sounds like a classic psylocybin trip, all the unity and resolution of paradox, that amazing depth of compassion and love......and then it kicks you right in the ass when you drop back to reality and see it's just a big goddamned inkblot. Ha!

Jackson is on the money on the whole, he's got an incredible ability to sum up these things really concisely.

Jon:

One thing I love to do is translate. Not just from English to Spanish (my native language) but also from one spiritual view to another. I can see you do that and that is wonderful.

To be able to perceive the sameness of theism and non-theism is freedom.

Jon, you might find the Bernadette Roberts books useful. Hers was a Catholic path to no-self. I've read all three of them, and though I don't fully know what to make of them, they go over the territory very thoroughly. Here's a review of one of them from my book blog: true-small-caps.blogspot.com/2010/12/experience-of-no-self.html

www.nonduality.com/berna.htm

An excellent (and quite long) chapter by chapter summary of Robert's "The Experience of No-Self"

@JonB2 This is a favourite of mine, because I first encountered meditation as a Christian. Many of my favourite mystics are Christians: the Desert Mothers and Fathers, The Cloud of Unknowing, Meister Eckhart, Simone Weil, Thomas Merton. I actually found your post and your descriptions of spiritual experience in a Christian vocabulary very moving. I guess a certain spiritual nostalgia is at work in me!

@DerekACameron @mumuwu - I hadn't heard of Bernadette Roberts before. I'll definitely try to check her stuff out.

Another description of Christian enlightenment is here:

shalomplace.com/res/xianenli.html