Comments about AugustLeo's Comments

Hi AugustLeo,

Since you have said you want no-one replying to your thread I am posting this thread for comments.

AugustLeo: "Many here seem to relate their experience and understanding to some Buddhist model of enlightenment for whatever reason (familiarity, comfort, conditioning), as if that model were the quintessential model. This is particularly true of the influx of members from DhO and Buddhist Geeks."END

Sorry August, I don't see what is wrong with having a map to aid in practice. Without one, I was lost for years and I suffered for it. There are dangers sure if one becomes attached to outcomes etc but if it keeps you practicing all the better, no? Having a map that helps me walk in a direction I wish to go keeps me practicing and does not allow me to rest my laurels anywhere. The end of suffering is what I am looking for. The map that has arisen as a great inspiration , along with my own experience and hearing of others' like Kenneth's, keeps me on my toes.

AugustLeo: "Recently, the Actual Freedom model has been added to the mix, creating confusion rather than clarity."

Has it? I guess we could use some clarification from Kenneth. I don't think he is about teaching one to never have jhana nor NS access (as is so in AF), but to end suffering completely within a Buddhist framework found in the Pali Cannon. That entails seeing through the mirage of "self" (what we call 4th path) and seeing emotions as they really are and then further dismantling the mirage of "self" completely so that there is no more mirage (the last two stages post 4th). This is as afar as I understand it. Hopefully, Kenneth can correct me if I am wrong. He has written about it here:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4354442/4th+Pathers+Unite !

Actually i second the idea that Kenneth should put something down to clear up further confusion and post it amongst the articles on the left.

He isn't teaching AF. That is something else, a different route. There are similarities, but as far as I have understood Kenneth's teachings, it is in line with the Buddhist idea of freedom from suffering. At least the fetter-free arahat one.

Kenneth?

11 years and counting....

Nick

AugustLeo: "No model is true or can ever point to what is true. Let models go and practice. At first practice seems to be engulfed in confusion - good. When enlightenment dawns, all that is left is Not Knowing. Reality is simply beyond words and thoughts and concepts. Reality is empty."

Hi August,

When you say enlightenment are you referring to 4th path as talked of here, or something else? Is it rigpa, primordial awareness? Can you please be more specific about what you are referring to. Is it some non-dual state? Are you free from all mental miseries? Are you free from all suffering (except the unavoidable physical deterioration of course)? This is my own goal and if you are I would love to know about it. It could be inspiring for others here.

Also , In your 48 years of practice, were there further developments after your "enlightenment"?

metta

Nick

The map that makes the most sense to me is the Buddhist map, and the goal that makes most sense to me is freedom from suffering. At the same time, I find a great deal of value in conceptual frameworks borrowed from various traditions. This eclectic approach inevitably creates a messy situation for this forum, but I believe the benefits outweigh the risks and I try to deal with difficulties as they arise.

I'm guessing that the real concern underlying this thread is whether Actual Freedom will be given equal time here. It will not. While I like to see posts from adepts in various traditions, it does matter to me that the tradition be well-established, with a long history of successful outcomes and "satisfied customers." For this reason, I have insisted and continue to insist that this forum is not a place to teach or defend Actual Freedom.

Chelek's recent thread "Mahasi and Chah" contains references to Actual Freedom and uses quotes from AF founder Richard in an effort to clear up some of the confusion about AF for those of us who do not understand it or practice it. I consider this to be a worthy endeavor indeed and I have enjoyed hearing an analysis of AF from a high-level practitioner who is not himself an advocate of AF.

I would look askance at anyone who came to this forum to proselytize for some particular tradition or sect, be it AF, Christianity, fundamentalist Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, or any other. I am asking everyone to recognize some nuances here; we can compare and contrast practice modalities and reported outcomes of different traditions within reason as long as it doesn't devolve into partisan politics and attachment to ideas. The fact that Chelek and others on the Mahasi and Chah thread have skillfully navigated these treacherous waters is inspiring and educational to me and I've been pleased to host that particular discussion on this forum.

edit: typo

August Leo: "Recently, the Actual Freedom model has been added to the mix, creating confusion rather than clarity.... Reality is simply beyond words and thoughts and concepts. Reality is empty."

Yea, but reality is also full Dolpopa once said something like: 'Samsara is empty of self, Nirvana is empty of other'. If we do not share concepts here in this emptiness then what?

As you are no doubt reflecting on my recent post. I have simply shown that AF is one way that one part of this process is experienced - as I have experienced it in a similar way. I have not added it, I have popped its bubble of uniqueness. I believe it also became pretty clear there that AF - as something to grab onto and declare 'this is it' - is also just another trap. From the time of first light until the sun comes up takes a while. At least it has for me. Reality is beyond thoughts and concepts - true enough - the path is built out of them - if it were not this way, we would have to sit around and wait for some moment of grace. Good luck. Inclusivity provides a space for each of us to participate - but then we have to be willing to accept each other don't we?

'I am That' is one of my favorite and most page-worn books. Does not the average person see it as composed of thoughts and concepts? Throw it away I guess. Atmananda's teaching? more words and concepts! - into the dust bin with you! August! lighten up man!

For whatever it's worth--and I know rules are rules--I think it is quite useful to have very senior practitioners such as AugustLeo posting here in whatever way. If he wants to do that without commentary, I respect that and I say blessings and no problem. Making an exception for someone who appears to have worked in a founding way on the website (e.g., the straw man model) and has almost 50 years of practice doesn't seem like a slippery slope to me.

Indeed, it seems to me that we now have a notable lack of very senior practitioners posting here; different than when I started lurking last summer. This creates an uneven dynamic in a community who is attempting certain kinds of pragmatic, comparative dialogues such as this one. Just being very bare bones, most of the people posting here in the past few months are either 1) newer to practice, 2) quite young, in early 30s, 3) have shorter practice histories--and I count myself at 18 years as one of these--or 4) have very fresh attainments. So I think a little bit of gravitas has left the building and it's good to have people who have different povs and also earned gravitas to weigh in.

Just my opinion, of course.

Mark

"Indeed, it seems to me that we now have a notable lack of very senior practitioners posting here; different than when I started lurking last summer. "

Well, I've been 'going through some kind of gears or another' for about 35 years now but the reality in practice, in a lot of ways, is more like, the more you practice, the less you know... or the less of you there is to know with... or something like that.

It does read more like a fresh crop of yogis, but hey, that is a good thing, fresh young minds going for it on the meditation cushion.

It usually seems like it would be out of place to post about what it is like much of the time when I get down to practicing heavily because it does change quite a bit over the long run and from what I've observed in some ways experience can be quite divergent further down the line.

Typical day for me. Went for a long long walk in the forest. Rained heavily. Woodpeckers returned. No noteworthy thoughts except noted I should buck up latest tree fall above garden, red cedar. No noteworthy feelings except bit of cramping from stale morning coffee, note, get fresh bag of coffee. Concentration practice, 3 hours, mainly sixth jhana, always a favorite, couldn't feel my legs for 20 min. afterward.
So you see, yawn.

Some old timers will kind of level out at a given point because they prefer conditions persist more consistently in one form or another. Others will try to find some way to reconcile the experiences and theories of everyone else that has ever had an inner life. Some feel compelled to try to make an issue of one aspect of things or another. Most simply fade out gracefully.

It's Kenneth's site for teaching. It makes good sense that most of the active participants are students of Kenneth and that he takes the lead on commenting and making assessments on progress and the rest of us fossils kind of pop in now and then just to stir the ashes.

"Indeed, it seems to me that we now have a notable lack of very senior practitioners posting here; different than when I started lurking last summer. "

ah!!! the spiral!!

Has it gotten a hold of you yet, Mark