correlating lsd experiences with jhanas

Hello all,

I posted this on DhO ( www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1335920 ) and was told to ask here.

For those of you who are or were psychonauts, and can reach the higher jhanas (5-, I have a question about altered states of consciousness you get into while on LSD.

I haven't taken LSD, and I probably won't soon, but I've heard people (who don't meditate) describing states under LSD such as "and then I felt like I was the entire universe" or "I felt unified with a cosmic consciousness", etc, mostly from Erowid's experience vaults. Are these experiences just describing very very hard forms of 5th and 6th jhanas, respectively? Are there any other states that correspond to jhanas? What about ones that don't?

I ask because I feel like if they do correspond, it might be beneficial to be able to explain meditation in terms of that with people who are experienced with it... like "it's like on LSD when you feel your boundaries disappear, except not as intense for me (yet)".

Feel free to PM if you don't want to post publicly.

Hi Beoman,
I don't do drugs but what you are describing are not necessarily jhanic states. Each of the two episodes you described could easily just be are most likely inclined to be A&P events. I say this because for me at least, fifth and sixth jhana are simply attainments which in the long run are just that, attainments which when set against the landscape of advanced practice are no big deal. There is a thread at the moment called dating and stream entry and it touches on conversations with those not on the path might be worth looking at. See it's very easy to get side tracked by 'wanting' to have or 'being able' to communicate something. More importantly for practice, if you really want to knock your socks off get a path or two under your belt....the universe changes forever then. In the long run....what is it that you want from this? Does the practice of taking LSD change your consciousness for your benefit and benefit of others in a harmonious and noble way? If not your pursuit and curiosity is just another form of spiritual materialism, which is fine I guess if you are sure you won't get hurt and won't hurt others. Sorry if I'm coming off a bit strong....I work with kids who I watch slide into drug use and it's not sad...it's tragic.
Paul

Thanks for the reply, Cartago. They could be A&Ps, true. I personally haven't felt those things. You're right about jhanic states being no big deal. I'm pretty sure I can get 5th jhana, and spent a session or two trying to expand the boundary and having it grow larger, which was fun and cool in a way, but nothing awesome and amazing.

However, I believe that is because I have worked my way up there. a while back, after meditating for only 1 month, I believe I stumbled into the 5th jhana, as it was a similar thing - I described it as "the void behind my eyes becoming three dimensional". I remember being dumbfounded. It was pretty amazing. I even felt like there was a presence there in that large state. It is one of the things that really set me to keep meditating, as it was reached totally sober.

Now imagine feeling what I felt there, with no meditation, after taking LSD, only feeling it 20 times more powerfully. It sure could feel like being in the presence of God or something like that. Also no wonder why people keep taking LSD if they feel stuff like that.

What I want from this is a good question. I'm almost certain I have a path by now, maybe two, you can read DhO for the details. Perhaps I want to help people onto the path? =). I hear that people who take LSD often hit an A&P and then get into a Dark Night and know not how to get out of it except for taking more LSD. That is a sad cycle. Maybe if I can at least show them that those experiences can be reached sober it will turn them onto meditation? That being said I don't even know that many people who take LSD regularly, so it might just be my interest in drugs, since generally mind-altering things are fascinating to me. Luckily my desire to take said drugs has decreased since 1st path.

And maybe it is because I want to fit mental states into one pretty world view, and correlating LSD experiences with something as simple as

jhanas would be "nice". Since having more experience with them I have been able to correlate some altered states while under the influence of marijuana with jhanas. I guess just for curiosity's sake. I realize it probably won't lead to me getting enlightened.

"jhanas would be "nice". Since having more experience with them I have been able to correlate some altered states while under the influence of marijuana with jhanas. I guess just for curiosity's sake. I realize it probably won't lead to me getting enlightened. "

I would just like to state that I am against any yogi taking LSD for the purpose of awakening. Sure, people may have triggered an A/P event in the past, but more people have probably triggered mental illness. I speak from experience within my own family. I hope I speak on behalf of Kenneth Folk and other yogis here when I say, that KFD does not endorse any drug taking for the purpose of correlating jhanas, nanas or whatever. Too many possible miserable dead ends down that route.

Sincerely,

Nick

Every couple months or so someone comes on this or our sister forum and wants to hear what we have to say about drugs. Like nick I know people who have done great damage to their lives using these substances. In fact now that I think about it I am one of them. : ) Fortunately I was able to find a the real practice. Which is a lot more work than putting a sugar cube under your tongue, but a hell of a lot more rewarding.

I hope this is not taken by the origional poster as a knock on him personally. But this is something I feel very passionate about. Psychedelics are a trap door... you think they lead to awakening but they don't..

So to adress the original question. Which I almost forgot to do. LSD seems to ramp up one's concentration. It can allow one to experience glimpses of non-duality. The subject object distinction can vanish. I know certain states I have entered on a trip were in retrospect the immaterial Jhanas. Although I don't think I ever got up to 8. You are also entering the field of the siddhis and the psychic realms.

Leave it alone, Satori will make LSD seem like a bad joke. I am for freedom not dependent on conditions. Including chemicals...

"
I'm almost certain I have a path by now, maybe two, you can read DhO for the details. "

Hey Beoman,

Even though i never actually followed this advice myself due to stinking of enlightenment for awhile after 1st path, yogis here can't come in and claim any old path without showing what there sits involve. Meaning straight non-specualtive descriptions of their practice over a period of time in their own practice notes threads showing patterns other yogis here can relate to. All without any calling it this jhana or that jhana or this path or that fruition. Just the nitty gritty phenomenological descriptions.

Something that Kenneth posted on this thread:
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/40...l1983+practice+notes

"This forum is not a place to make unsubstantiated claims. It's a place where you can share the details of your practice and interact with other practitioners. It isn't enough to say "I have attained 3rd Path." That is an unsubstantiated claim. If, on the other hand, you give us a careful, phenomenological account of your practice, step by step, as it occurs, we can actually learn something useful about you and your practice. We can offer help and guidance and we can tell you whether or not we agree with your appraisal of your own practice.

I don't know where you are on the maps, because you haven't given us any information beyond your self-appraisal. Self-appraisals are useful; I always like to ask people where they think they are. But by themselves, self-appraisals are not nearly enough." Kenneth Folk

I would love to read a detail account without speculation of where your practice is at, Boeman. I know you've set one up at DhO, but anyone can claim stuff over there without peer review. Don't mean to be mean. It's just something we try to avoid at KFD.

Metta

Nick

Thanks for the replies, everyone. To make it clear, I'm also against taking LSD for Awakening. This was more out of interest, and to potentially help those who already have. I think it's a really bad idea and am really glad I never did, since then I would doubt any visual phenomena I saw as being caused by my meditation, and would think it to be "after-effects of LSD" or anything.

Sorry about claiming paths out of the blue. I think I believed these forums to be more related than they are, so it was enough for me to say "oh just read DhO!" As a next-best thing, allow me to post some links to DhO threads, as I've talked about stuff there, plenty, along with my current description of what I think they were, looking back. I think it won't be necessary to cut+paste everything again in here? I'll make a new thread about this as it's quite unrelated to this topic.

Hmm you say "a detail of account without speculation." I'm afraid I do speculate, there, but please ignore those speculations and focus on the descriptions I make. Or should I edit them out to strip them of that stuff?

If anyone does think LSD can lead to enlightenment, one only has to read one of numerous Erowid reports. Invariably, they feel like they get closer and closer to some truth, and just one more trip will do it, etc., meanwhile their lives fall apart. Here's a particularly shocking one: www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=79725 . Basically he gets hooked on taking Nitrous Oxide to enhance the effects of LSD trips, then gets hooked on Nitrous by itself, then does so much irreparable brain damage to his body that he now continuously experiences pain every day of his life, simply from nerve damage so he can't even take pain killers to suppress it. Fun stuff, fun stuff.

I have a feeling that the more you get into your practice, the more drugs seem boring and stupid in comparison. But I'm just speculating
Beoman: The Erowid link you posted is a classic example of how people can mistake drug experiences for being some sort of gateway to a better understanding / reality, get trapped in it for many years, convincing themselves they are conducting some sort of research, while in fact they are developing a strong addiction which then leads to disastrous physical and mental health problems.

"I have a feeling that the more you get into your practice, the more drugs seem boring and stupid in comparison. But I'm just speculating
"

You are right about that! Well, currently, I am thankful to realize I need no drugs to make any progress. Also the desire for drugs (even alcohol) dies down completely in the more pleasant stages of practice (Equanimity, post-path). It still does come back during the Dark Nights..

There actually is just _one_ very interesting Erowid report about Ibogaine that it might be fun to read: www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88298 . It's remarkable in its vivid descriptions of the three characteristics (unknown to the reporter, of course). The one interesting thing is the guy seems to have taken it during a Dark Night-like period of his life, and it got him to an Equanimity-like stage. However, beneficial as that may be, lacking any meditative training he is quite likely to fall back. And hard as it may be to start practice from Dark Night, it seems starting it from Equanimity might be harder? The natural approach is best, in any case. I got life-changing results like that just from sitting and meditating, and I know I can repeat the process by just focusing well enough! No need to fly to Mexico and ingest some strange substance.

"I have a feeling that the more you get into your practice, the more drugs seem boring and stupid in comparison. But I'm just speculating "

I think this would be great in an ideal world. However, a lot of evidence shows this is not necessarily true. We don't have to look far to see examples of masters with high attainments and powerful addictions. Chogyum Trungpa for example died of causes related to his alcoholism. and I don't think anyone would question his attainment. Addiction is addiction and no attainment is going to take away the work someone has to do to get clean/away from destructive behaviors...

I sort of agree and sort of disagree Clayton.
Firstly, you say "I don't think anyone would question his (Trungpa's) attainment". Why is that? I don't know what attainment he had or didn't have. Is this man somehow exempt from healthy skepticism?
The fact that there was once some Tibetan teacher who many believe was enlightened (who knows?) was an alcoholic, proves nothing about the relationship between the path of practice and addictions.

For myself, I was highly addicted to weed and my practice has helped me tremendously in getting rid of that addiction (and cigarettes). Kenneth has also reported that after his LSD-induced A&P, his cocaine addiction was gone (and his depression gone after 4th path - depression and drug use are strongly related, though we need more data to conclude that clinical depression always goes away with 4th path, but here's one man's case).

You also write, "Addiction is addiction and no attainment is going to take away the work someone has to do to get clean/away from destructive behaviors" - I agree, and I think the path of practice is a LOT of work, which is very similar to working with addiction - at least thats how I currently see it.

Edit: I also remember a research conducted by the VRI (Vipassana Research Institute - ala Goenka) that found strong support for the possibility that meditation practice (specifically Goenka's type) helps people come out of addictions. There are also numerous other findings (look up on Google Scholar - "Vipassana meditation as a treatment for alcohol and drug use disorder" or simply "meditation and addiction")

I definitely noticed an increase in my desire for marijuana during Dark Night, and a sharp decrease upon Equanimity and what I think was Stream Entry (read my Introductory post if you want to know details about that), so I can attest to that. The desire has increased again upon the subsequent Dark Nights, though, so I'll just have to see if it goes away permanently upon future paths.

About LSD curing cocaine addiction, there is an Erowid report about that, too - basically the experiencer's cocaine addiction manifested as an image of himself called Tony (slang for coke). Also it seems Ibogaine can cure addictions - it cured that one dude's nicotine addiction, which is pretty huge as that seems to be the most addicting chemical out there. I don't know if we need to bring A&P into the equation. And I've also heard Ecstasy curing Cocaine addiction, or at least, turning a daily coke user into a twice-monthly X user. But drugs curing drug addiction is a slippery subject and I can't really recommend that approach.

Really, it is best not to ever get involved with them, if you want to avoid addictions =).