Not a Stage

I'm not upset at all so please try not to read that into my comments. I don't care about Actual Freedom. It's not something I'm interested in at all and it's clear that's not what Kenneth is interested in, either. I think the best approach, at least for me at this point, is to watch the experiment as it continues. Let's see what the results are over the long term. I agree that there are more things available to us than we probably know, maybe than we can know. I think it's up to all of us to decide which of those we want to pursue as we encounter them.

"
I'm not upset at all so please try not to read that into my comments. I don't care about Actual Freedom. It's not something I'm interested in at all and it's clear that's not what Kenneth is interested in, either. I think the best approach, at least for me at this point, is to watch the experiment as it continues. Let's see what the results are over the long term. I agree that there are more things available to us than we probably know, maybe than we can know. I think it's up to all of us to decide which of those we want to pursue as we encounter them.

"

if you are referring to my post i'm sorry. i dont think you are upset. I shouldn't have mentioned you and i'll take out your name.

MIke, I'm not referring to any one particular post. Just making sure I'm not being misinterpreted or misunderstood. I'm happy to be responsible for what I say, so leave my name in your post. It's okay.

I'm going to follow Chris' lead and take an exit from this dialogue for the time being. I've got a million additional thoughts, but this issue is also creating a major distraction in my practice and it feels like a ripe time to not be too distracted. Hopefully I can reign in my academic horses and keep to this pledge for the time being and just stick to posting on my journal. My concerns align with Chris', but I agree with he and Kenneth that time is the great solvent. What is useful and true will take time to reveal itself.

P.S. A process comment: The internet is a lousy (capital L) means to communicate about issues that can get as subtle as this. I'm a veteran of many spiritual chat boards, and often the disembodied internet makes small differences in tone, intent, and idea etc suddenly seem like huge gulfs. Not saying that is or isn't true in this case--I don't know--but when nonverbals are removed from the equation communication has a tendency to get f'ed up.

"I'm going to follow Chris' lead and take an exit from this dialogue for the time being. I've got a million additional thoughts, but this issue is also creating a major distraction in my practice and it feels like a ripe time to not be too distracted. Hopefully I can reign in my academic horses and keep to this pledge for the time being and just stick to posting on my journal. My concerns align with Chris', but I agree with he and Kenneth that time is the great solvent. What is useful and true will take time to reveal itself.

P.S. A process comment: The internet is a lousy (capital L) means to communicate about issues that can get as subtle as this. I'm a veteran of many spiritual chat boards, and often the disembodied internet makes small differences in tone, intent, and idea etc suddenly seem like huge gulfs. Not saying that is or isn't true in this case--I don't know--but when nonverbals are removed from the equation communication has a tendency to get f'ed up.


"

true

"All of those are traditions based on one central figure. They depend on buying into a particular belief system as laid out by the founder." )

Can you elaborate on that extra smily face Jeff. I know you to be a defender of a faith over at the DhO so is that a stab at Kenneth...or the Buddha?...... Be honest.

Glad to see such robust dialogue! And helpful clarifications. And yes this distracts from practice....

"Frankly, for anyone who isn't at least 4th Path, all this drama is a tempest in a tea pot. It would be like obsessing over the end of a movie you haven't seen yet." kfolk

Speaking as a relative newcomer to this site who has been trying to untangle and read all these threads about the" experiment," I wonder if that statement couldn't be more prominent somehow. Like a section of this board titled, "4th path practices" or "advanced practices." Just to know that there is a difference and that the baseline is still vipassana.

@kenneth: "The 'dad' role really isn't what I do here. I'm more of a coach and a resource."

"Dad" was a poor analogy on my part. I am also a college lecturer, formal and informal mentor and employer, all of which involve some degree of hierarchy. Which requires my needing to exercise extra discernment in what I present and make available. What I'm trying to say is that the synergy of those relationships suffer if I lost sight of the fact that I'm not their peer (which doesn't seem to be the case with you, it's just that the "experiment" posts broadcast to all and sometimes the message/intention of that democratized messaging is...confusing).

"What I'm trying to say is that the synergy of those relationships suffer if I lost sight of the fact that I'm not their peer (which doesn't seem to be the case with you, it's just that the "experiment" posts broadcast to all and sometimes the message/intention of that democratized messaging is...confusing)."-boeuf

I know, bouef. I constantly sabotage my opportunities to be elevated in the eyes of my students or even to become a more popular dharma teacher. I'm doing it on purpose.

One of the reasons for the high success ratio my students enjoy is that they are self-selecting. I'm not making it particularly easy for people to find me and I'm not even making the written teachings particularly easy to access as evidenced by this clunky website. What that means, though, is that the people who do make it here are MOTIVATED. And that motivation is a big part of their success. I love that!

Ha! If it's pig-headed you're talking about, I fit right in.

But the paternal-caretaker part of me always worries about all the other ones who lose their way.

"Can you elaborate on that extra smily face Jeff. I know you to be a defender of a faith over at the DhO so is that a stab at Kenneth...or the Buddha?...... Be honest. "

Yes I have no reason not to be honest and did not intend to offend anyone.

I just found it funny that the Buddha was not lumped into the same statement. I apologize if you read anything else into it.

I have the deepest respect for Kenneth and his great work .

As to defender of a faith I don't know why you interpret it that way. It is similar to "not knowing" , I aim to keep an open mind and attempt to not judge on belief and draw conclusions and instead investigate. When people ask specific questions in regard to a method that I might be able to help with I respond to their questions.

Hi Jeff,

Having affective feelings affects interpretations perhaps. Difficult one for the A/F proponents to navigate in order to spread the word. Skillful means can be hard to put into action. Just making sure we are just upfront honest about our opinions. Ambiguous emoticons can be read many ways. Best to explain them in context to what you really mean. No harm done. Thanks for the reply.

Are you A/F? I assumed you were not. You speculate that A/F is a real way of being (or not being) as does anyone not claiming A/F yet through exchanges with those who claim A/F and one's personal experiences with PCE's Therefore you have faith that it is the right direction you have taken for yourself. You really don't "know" it to be true yet. So yes, you defend and champion a goal which you haven't attained yet out of faith that it is real, as PCE's aren't A/F according to those who have attained it. No insult intended. Please accept my apologies if it was taken as so.

(Peaceful smile)

"I've come here from the Dharma Overground, after watching it become the Actual Overground. I have not desire to debate the merits of actualism, except to say that it's not my practice. Vipassana is my practice and I'm looking for open, sane and compassionate support and dialogue about that. Watching the DhO change gears felt like a sort of betrayal--the sort of betrayal that is all too common by spiritual teachers and takes a lot of different forms. Daniel's public foray into AF seems very irresponsible to the people who look(ed) up to him. The issue is not that he has changed his practice, but that he has changed his teaching in real time with his practice without first allowing time for the change in practice to mature and time and distance for him to get the sort of perspective to present those changes thoughtfully to his students."

Just a few points:

1) There is still much traditional and modern Buddhist dharma that happens on both forums, here and the DhO, and still many talented practitioners both places who are willing to help answer questions, so it would seem that the objection is to these things happening in the same place, which is one I don't really understand at all except that it must have some emotional meaning for you to keep things segregated. What other topics do you consider taboo or off limits? I ask this as a rhetorical question only. Further, I am not an expert in AF, and leave that to those who actually claim that. As regards AF, I couldn't care less about Richard, contrary to the way Kenneth paints this as being all about him, but I do care very much about the results that my friends Tarin and Trent and the others have achieved, and find their advice as fellow adventurers who have managed to do something I haven't personally inspiring and compelling, and this is only natural and shouldn't be some big source of complexity except in those with issues.

2) As it says in my book quite clearly in the Foreword and Warning, which I hope you read, "A number of people have attempted to have me be their meditation teacher. I have done what I can to encourage them to practice well, go on retreats and explore, but as soon as I get the sense that they are not into really doing the work or are trying to idolize me in even small ways, I go out of my way to alienate them completely. I greatly prefer the company of fellow adventurers who wish to explore the mysteries of this life together than any other sort of relationship. Dharma friends may be at different stages in the practice and one friend may teach another something useful, but this has a very different feel from people who are formally teacher and student. Thus, writing this book allows me to hand them the better part of what I know and say, 'Here, if you are really into it, there is more than enough here to allow you to plunge as deep as you care to. If not, I have wasted little of my time and can avoid being put on some strange pedestal or pillory, at least to my face.' "

I really meant all of that, and, unlike those whose goal is to be up on some pedestal and/or be teacher in the formal sense, I have simply never been into that if I can help it except as a temporary state of last resort to be discarded as soon as possible, really preferring us all to be adults who help each other out if and when we can and want to. If you were looking for me to be some whitewashed non-human pillar of your ideals, you were barking up the wrong tree, and, in all honesty, I hope you don't find a replacement, as you would do a lot better with a realistic picture of the humanity involved in all this and a sense of your power to stand on your own with dharma friends rather than dharma daddies.

Dharma or drama...This is distracting, and it's clear I should have written my post more thoughtfully. This is my last post on this topic.

"There is still much traditional and modern Buddhist dharma that happens on both forums, here and the DhO, and still many talented practitioners both places who are willing to help answer questions, so it would seem that the objection is to these things happening in the same place, which is one I don't really understand at all except that it must have some emotional meaning for you to keep things segregated. What other topics do you consider taboo or off limits?" dingram

This is a time and resource issue--the emotional meaning is one of being strapped for time. Investing in an on-line community requires time that is already quite scarce for me (reading posts, writing them, getting to know the outlook of individuals there in order to understand the broad perspective of their comments). In contemporary Western life, an enormous amount of time-resource is devoted to filtering noise from signal. My observation has nothing to do with the quality of what is said or the skill of the participants (quite the contrary). It's just that post for post, at the DhO these days, most everything is about Actualism. It is valuable/helpful that Kenneth has chosen to limit the discussion here to conform with the mission of the site. The spiritual supermarket is quite vast, and there's room for everyone out there, and that's all great, etc. Concentration is not just a matter of sitting practice. Discussions become concentrated and more synergetic when the focus is tight, they become dissipated and exploratory when it the focus is loose. Each has it's merit. For the last few years I've been concerned with tightening my focus.

"If you were looking for me to be some whitewashed non-human pillar of your ideals, you were barking up the wrong tree, and, in all honesty, I hope you don't find a replacement, as you would do a lot better with a realistic picture of the humanity involved in all this and a sense of your power to stand on your own with dharma friends rather than dharma daddies." dingram

@Daniel: This sort of mild ridicule and ad hominem innuendo makes it clear that feelings have been hurt and I'm sorry for that. In another post I wrote that I regretted the Dad analogy since it has clearly been misunderstood. If you re-read what I wrote, it is about responsibility and maturity, not infantilization or dependency. Curious that so many people only hear the only child's side of that analogy, and not the adults' side. I was drawing from my own perspective as a dad and the demands it makes on me to be circumspect and discerning. My kid is a self-responsible individual, my sense of what it means to be a parent grows out of respect for that individuality and respect for boundaries.

There is no question in my mind that there are some very skilled and helpful practitioners at the DhO--and I mean truly amazing. Again, I regret the choice of many of my words since they appear to have mischaracterized myself, you and the DhO and even caused some alarm here at KFD. And I never intended to light a fire, just to say that that some recent developments are sort of a drag. It didn't disturb my own practice, but I did notice a few younger practitioners lose heart in their vipassana practice--and that's a little sad because they definitely were not 4th path. Idealizing you (or anyone else for that matter) is so far from how I am in the world...it's a little ironic, actually.

"@Daniel: This sort of mild ridicule and ad hominem innuendo makes it clear that feelings have been hurt and I'm sorry for that. In another post I wrote that I regretted the Dad analogy since it has clearly been misunderstood. If you re-read what I wrote, it is about responsibility and maturity, not infantilization or dependency. Curious that so many people only hear the only child's side of that analogy, and not the adults' side. I was drawing from my own perspective as a dad and the demands it makes on me to be circumspect and discerning. My kid is a self-responsible individual, my sense of what it means to be a parent grows out of respect for that individuality and respect for boundaries." --

Hear, Hear! The value of the 'dad [parent] analogy' is that it illuminates the difference between adult and childish behavior and responsibilities. Anyone claiming the adult / senior practitioner position takes on responsibilities along with a privileged status. [And to say, 'I have practiced this method; it works, and I am capable of showing you how to do it, too, If you follow my instructions, you will succeed.'-- don't kid yourself, is to claim the privileged status of a master.]

To then make some sort of doublethink denial about having claimed any privilege, is evading the responsibilities. It is shoddy argument, and more importantly, it is unworthy behavior-- of a teacher of philosophy, let alone someone claiming spiritual attainment.

"To then make some sort of doublethink denial about having claimed any privilege, is evading the responsibilities. It is shoddy argument, and more importantly, it is unworthy behavior-- of a teacher of philosophy, let alone someone claiming spiritual attainment."-Roomy

Maybe so, Kate. That is certainly one point of view. But is it the only one we should consider? And can you see that all this judgmentalism and moral outrage is, itself, pure suffering in this moment? I request that we keep the discussion at a less personal, less contentious level.

"This is a time and resource issue--the emotional meaning is one of being strapped for time. Investing in an on-line community requires time that is already quite scarce for me (reading posts, writing them, getting to know the outlook of individuals there in order to understand the broad perspective of their comments). In contemporary Western life, an enormous amount of time-resource is devoted to filtering noise from signal. My observation has nothing to do with the quality of what is said or the skill of the participants (quite the contrary). It's just that post for post, at the DhO these days, most everything is about Actualism. It is valuable/helpful that Kenneth has chosen to limit the discussion here to conform with the mission of the site. The spiritual supermarket is quite vast, and there's room for everyone out there, and that's all great, etc. Concentration is not just a matter of sitting practice. Discussions become concentrated and more synergetic when the focus is tight, they become dissipated and exploratory when it the focus is loose. Each has it's merit. For the last few years I've been concerned with tightening my focus.

"

I really don't want to wade into the AF discussion but I can't keep from commenting on this. Clearly this new mode of practice is not for me based on where I am at. But the "time and resource" issue boeuf raises is bang on. Even if I try and ignore the direct mode stuff, I cannot. This thread started with a koan of sorts, and look where it ends up? Just sayin'.

Tomo, this is not not directed at you, but rather to a kind of collective petulance that has arisen lately. Everyone, please try to remember the mission of this site. It is intended to help people wake up, with the 3 speed transmission as the primary teaching vehicle. It isn't the one speed transmission, or the "wherever I am at the moment is the only thing that matters and everything else is annoying and distracting" transmission. It is a comprehensive training intended for people at *all* levels of development. Of course there will be much presented here that isn't relevant to you personally! That is the whole point; every individual is at his or her unique stage of development and the intention is to be able to support everyone where they are.

The flip side of the coin is that if I do my job well there will always be something useful to you at whatever level you happen to be; as you grow, things that were not interesting to you before will suddenly become your obsession. And as I grow and learn and update the teaching, I will be even better able to help you in your own development.

The proof is in the pudding; people are getting enlightened here. I can't imagine why this would not continue. It is ongoing as we speak. Almost every day I comment on practice threads, most of which are working at the level of 1st Gear. And almost every week I talk to someone who has just attained one of the 4 Paths of enlightenment. So, everyone, please be patient if not everything you read here seems relevant to you at this point in your practice. Maybe someday it will be. And I assure you that everything here is relevant to someone whose needs matter just as much as yours.

Let's snap out of our collective funk and get back to work! If you don't yet have the A&P, hurry up! If you are not yet a stream enterer, what are you waiting for? Not 2nd Path? Get hot! Working on 3rd? Shape up! Not 4th? Come on!

"I really don't want to wade into the AF discussion but I can't keep from commenting on this. Clearly this new mode of practice is not for me based on where I am at. But the "time and resource" issue boeuf raises is bang on. Even if I try and ignore the direct mode stuff, I cannot. This thread started with a koan of sorts, and look where it ends up? Just sayin'. "

What A/F discussion? We aren't really discussing A/F. A/F IS NOT DIRECT MODE!!!!!!!!! We need to stop worrying about A/F. Please! Now BACK TO WORK!!!!

Not to beat a dead horse, but Nick is right. There is no AF discussion. Rather than restate what I wrote earlier today, I'll just cut and paste from my post #100 of this very thread:

"In other words, this site is not the place for Actualists, Meher Baba devotees, practitioners of Baha'i or Christians. Discussions of the merits of those systems have no place here. We are not going discuss AF here, because it lies outside the mission of this site."

Edit: Just to clarify, everyone is welcome here, including Baha'i, Actualists, Christians, etc. What I meant to say is that this is not the place to discuss the doctrines of those particular systems. Pragmatic talk about your own practice and questions about how to make further progress, on the other hand, are always welcome irrespective of your religion or creed.

Normally I don't comment much on threads because of two fundamental things, the first is a time constraint, the second is practice. I think cultivating a strong, really strong, practice focus is essential to all of this, particularly for the time constrained. There is however another restraint and I call it my 'lack dragon.' This is a worry based creature who pops up, or should I say, used to pop up when 'other techniques,' or 'claims' used be made which breathed the fire of...'I'm missing out,...' 'THE VALUE OF MY PRACTICE METHOD IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING BETTER.' Well, there isn't. Three speeds is hardrock, bedrock. Keep the head down, and keep mining....the rest will take care of itself....sooner or later. Conversation is good...but maybe I'm just a bit of a cave yogi, but not when it gets in the way of practice, particularly if you feel the need to defend or propogate your concept or your confusion. CONFIDENCE and BELIEF are a better friend and a better cup of tea in the long run. Normally the expression goes, heads down, tails up...but because ours is essentially a sitting practice, I guess it would be the other way around. As Buzz Light Year said, "To infinity and beyond...."
Paul

I think we should allow this thread to be whatever it wants to be. I can start a new practice thread at some point.

"
I think we should allow this thread to be whatever it wants to be. I can start a new practice thread at some point.

"

This was your new practice thread? Haha! Man you let it get away from you.