Mark's Practice Notes

On another note:

When I am not awash in noting sadness/anger/frustration/grief, meditations are proceeding to a point where my mind is becoming increasingly quiet and transparent. I am somehow not there anymore. My interpretation is that things are approaching nir-vikalpa samadhi (without imagination, without thought forms) as opposed to sa-vikalpa (with imagination, with thoughts forms). It seems to me that only really jhanas 12 and 13 rest on the edge of nirvikalpa; the rest lean towards savikalpa.

Anyway, it is a new experience to feel like I am totally gone, and it has the "wow factor" as Kenneth might say--or a "jolt factor" (one finds oneself jolting out of it). It seems like a very subtle place to stabilize, to not waver and lose concentration. Or rather, it is hard not to "jolt" up, hard to continue to forget oneself and lose oneself. On the other hand, the relatively nigh reality of such a state is pretty amazing. I had long ago given up that I would ever approach it.

Here is the conundrum I'm coming up against in my practice. I am open to any and all comments:

I've realized that I've just been fighting myself and resisting experience--since whenever--and eventually I'm going to have to stop. So I've been practicing, for the 1st time, I think, resting in 3rd gear. Sometimes this feels like I am open, a complete circuit and free, other times I am just this guy in a body with a lot of opinions, and there is no insight at all. Like I've never practiced a day before in my life.

When in 3rd gear there isn't an urge to cultivate jhanas or take the witness. It feels like it isn't fruitful, almost counter-productive. This 3rd gear attitude is nice, but is also anxiety provoking, because if I am not open/connected/etc I also may just be this skin-bounded guy who has gotten nowhere. So there is a desire to cultivate jhanas and higher states to pull out of that normal, contracted state. Also, there is an urge to continue to remove the energetic block at my heart and solar plexus, which is where the action is and where a lot of my contracted feeling generates from.

Also, more often than not, at the end of a meditation where I am concentrating and going through heart contraction/kriyas/etc I eventually open, surrender, relax, and feel connected. I feel that consciousness reverses and I am "it" for a while.I get "there." So there is a pull to do that process, but also a question like "If I keep having to meditate to get "there," will I have to keep doing that forever?"

So the question is: Do I rest in 3rd gear and tolerate the normality when that is the case until some stable insight arises? Or do I continue to push up the ladder and hope something breaks open--the heart chakra?--and that it will create a stable insight?

P.S. In all honesty, I am not sure I actually have a choice. I am more aware of switching practices than ever; at one moment it feels like I just have to do "x" and at another "y" and then "z." But I'm open to wisdom from the road and am hoping for easy answers

"So the question is: Do I rest in 3rd gear and tolerate the normality when that is the case until some stable insight arises? Or do I continue to push up the ladder and hope something breaks open--the heart chakra?--and that it will create a stable insight? "

Mark, whenever you feel frustrated and helpless in a higher gear, switch to a lower gear. Frustration is the cue that it's time to downshift. When it is right for you to stay in 3rd Gear all the time, you will do so automatically; anything else will be painful. You may be making this more complicated then it is. Whenever you are asking yourself whether you should downshift, the answer is "yes."

"So the question is: Do I rest in 3rd gear and tolerate the normality when that is the case until some stable insight arises? Or do I continue to push up the ladder and hope something breaks open--the heart chakra?--and that it will create a stable insight? "

Hi Mark,

I don't think you are accessing 3rd gear if you you have to "tolerate" it. I think if you practice either 3rd, 2nd or 1st continuously when neccesary and when "it feels right" you will eventually finish the thing. I don't know if finishing the thing really has anything to do with manipulating the heart chakra. The heart chakra might open up as a result of it getting it done, but if you are actively trying to manipulate soemthing here, I am not sure that is going to work. Are you third path? If you are I would just keep breaking down (objectifying in either 3rd, 2nd or 1st gear) all the states and stages you find yourself in until you feel like you don't know what else to do to finish it. Then you are going to just maybe leave half of it to grace, and the other half to seeing the non-sacredness of ALL phenomena.

Yeh, you probably don't have a choice.

P.S. From all the yogis I've talked to so far who got 4th path, it happened for them when they asked themselves, "What the hell do i have to do to get off this ride?"

Thanks very much Kenneth--this is an excellent practice tip and feels like something I can apply. I think it also matches what I do often--I get frustrated and I change tactics. Though I've never made it this simple.

Yes Nick, I would agree it isn't 3rd gear if I am tolerating it. I don't think my post was clear. There are times when I have just found myself "there" and then there are times when I am just trying to take that "attitude," so not 3rd gear experience but that "no effort" policy--fake it until you make it. Kenneth's point clarifies a lot I think.

As for giving up, I absolutely agree on that. I repeatedly reach a place in my meditation where I give up and throw in the towel and start praying. And that never fails to bring me deeper, often to feeling complete and open. The thing I am confronting is that my egoic habits and filters keep finding a way to reassert themselves once the meditation wears off, so it feels like the walls go back up even if they seemed like they were gone. So part of my asking the question is wondering whether I should just quit entirely, like go on strike. But I get Kenneth's point, so I think I might have to keep taking whatever gear is available until something pops.

P.S. Not manipulating the heart chakra--I didn't mean that--but in concentrated states the energy naturally goes there and seems to get stuck. Kriyas happen which focus on just that area and the heart energy loosens. I've seen an almost one-to-one correspondence between open heart=open consciousness and even spent about 3 days where I felt completely open because there was no block there. I don't know, but it feels like the block is no longer in my head but the distractions from the big IT are generated down below. Don't know if that is true, but seems to be the case.

I still get a lot of crappy heart sensations even now. I feel complete, in a complete circuit sense. Insight disease has gone. But I still get crappy sensations at the heart chakra which have been with me for over a decade. As we speak, I'm aware of the whole body and low and behold, the crappy heart sensations. So I kind of doubt the whole opening of the heart thing after 4th path. Just from my own experience. I really have no idea to tell you the truth. hehe!

Hurry up and get it done! you seem ripe!

Thanks for the encouragement--I'm practicing as much as I can tolerate! I'll keep you posted!

Mark

Nuts-and-bolts: I've been practicing 2-2.5 hours a day the last few. Usually noting and then quiet meditation while driving to work, then one walk with noting and meditation, and then a sit at night. In addition to noting, I've been finding the full range of techniques useful. One surprise is that I am finding mantra repetition really powerful and satisfying at certain points--I always like the idea but disliked the practice of mantra repetition; funny that I would start really enjoying it now.

Experiences: A few interesting experiences. A couple of days ago at the end of my walking meditation I felt a "pop" in my heart chakra--a kind of watery bubble popping sensation--similar to what happened in my forehead. My heart started vibrating, almost like I was having a panic attack or I was hyperventilating, and my limbs also were vibrating like that. I tried to sit afterwards but I was way too antsy. The feeling lasted about 20-30 minutes. Since then I've noticed a reduction of the contracted feeling at the heart, maybe 20%.

Another interesting experience I've been having is entering an energetic state where it feels like my whole body is "concrete block" of energy, just solid energy. Its an eyes far down samatha state, high mental absorption.

Reflections: States are just coming and going and coming and going. Also, insights--nothing sticks for long or defines things for more than a day or even just a meditation. I'm felling more calm with this being the case. What can I do about it? Nothing it seems. I'm not always in a 2nd gear witnessing, but just realizing that dispassion is much less suffering than constantly clinging to whatever new good or bad thing is happening. I've also been motivated nicely by this quote from a translation of Pantajali that I am now reading:

One who regards even the most exalted states disinterestedly, discriminating continuously between pure awareness and the phenomenal world, enters the final state of integration, in which nature is seen to be a cloud of irreducible experiential forms. This realization extinguishes both the causes of suffering and the cycle of cause and effect.

"One who regards even the most exalted states disinterestedly, discriminating continuously between pure awareness and the phenomenal world, enters the final state of integration, in which nature is seen to be a cloud of irreducible experiential forms. This realization extinguishes both the causes of suffering and the cycle of cause and effect."-Patanjali, as quoted by mdaf30

Wow. Yes.

I stumbled on this translation and commentary by a guy named Chip Hartranf--it's on Amazon--who is also a Buddhist practitioner. Super lucid. He even spends time comparing and contrasting the YS with Theravada Buddhism. I am getting a ton out of it.

Here is the rest of that translated section... I think it continues in wowness.

Once all the layers and imperfections concealing truth have been washed away, insight is boundless, with little left to know.

Then the seamless flow of reality, its transformations colored by fundamental qualities, begins to break down, fulfilling the true mission of consciousness.

One can see that the flow is actually a series of discrete events, each corresponding to the merest instant of time, in which one form becomes another.

Freedom is at hand when the fundamental qualities of nature, each of their transformations witnessed at the moment of its inception, are recognized as irrelevant to pure awarenss; it stands alone, grounded in its very nature, the power of pure seeing. That is all.

Hi Kenneth.

Yes, I agree very much that the nature of the other should be discovered. I "know"--in as much as "know" anything--that the way I normally conceive of the other isn't the deepest truth. I've gone far enough to see that over and over.

And yet, one of the things that I find important about the traditional paths is that they have built out answers for how, even when correctly perceived, one might relate to and address the other, however real or not real he or she is. I just think that this interpersonal dimension is not reducible--no matter what the 1st person experience, the 2nd person is always there. This is a bit of my Wilber talking, but this also has precedent in the traditions (the Kashmir Shaivites understood this).

I think this is self-evident even--or maybe even especially--in this community. Why else would a bunch of 4th pathers gather around to chat if not for the irreducible elements of relationship? If waking up individually were the only thing that matters, why would a guy like AugustLeo get so offended so as to take himself off the board or you and Chris or Roomy or Daniel and others (all 4th path and beyond) get into spats? I mean no offense by this. I am getting into it all the time too, here and elsewhere, but I just see that the wish to interconnect and the tensions that go with that seems to go on for even the most advanced of yogis.

So this is what I find most challenging about the direct path stuff, although I haven't been able to articulate it until now. When I hear that someone perceives the clear light of awareness, or the Self, I know the interpersonal punchline because the traditions have addressed it. and their teachers model it (or try). We are "made of" the clear light, we all share the same Self. Hence, have compassion for one another and love one another as your own Self. The interpersonal lessons are there, the guides are clear.

And yet I haven't yet heard the direct path stuff really connected to these interpersonal, more expanded concerns. It seems relevant for individual awakening, as perhaps the culmination of a post 4th path process. But how many people will that be relevant for? So small a number. What is the 2nd person dimension besides getting less angry (although I should mention that you and Daniel still seem a bit annoyed from time to time, so I wonder honestly about that claim).

I hope you'll take this challenge in the best sense. The truth is, I think the developments you describe would be good for me. I don't get angry a lot these days, so that isn't a major concern. Anxiety is still a big challenge on the other hand. So I am just looking for a cognitive foothold. If I follow the direct path at some point, will the eradication of emotions and all of that make me a better agent of love or a mindless person who is so wrapped up his own bliss that he can no longer relate to the world?

PS I am not convinced--or rather, I very much suspect--that many teachers have had similar experiences. I just find it inconceivable that you, Daniel et al. would be able to so quickly figure out something that people like Ramana and Nisgaradatta or the Tibetan masters etc. couldn't or didn't. They seem to talk quite a bit about the non-presence of self-consciousness. In that sense, I actually suspect you are probably just finding a new way to teach or reach the old claim of complete self-eradication. But I find their way easy to follow because they have that larger, traditional, interpersonal container and I think if this new teaching is going to persuade others that a similar articulation will need to arise.

PSS So much for my intent to lay off this topic. I think I've gotten triggered by Owen and now Nick reporting in. It sort of feels now inevitable if I hang around here for too long that I will feel pressure--interpersonal stuff being irreducible--to go that way. I'd like to know what I might be getting into, what with having a wife and a child and clients and students and all of that that makes up so much of my life.

" It sort of feels now inevitable if I hang around here for too long that I will feel pressure--interpersonal stuff being irreducible--to go that way. I'd like to know what I might be getting into, what with having a wife and a child and clients and students and all of that that makes up so much of my life."

I don't feel the inevitability of this but, yeah, it's pretty obvious it has captured the imaginations of many people here. I'm still in the "let's wait and see" camp. First because the same subtle issues arise for me as they do for you, Mark. Second, it appears to me to be a state. It comes and goes.It can be practiced and it can be held onto. I can do it now or later, and I'm choosing later at this point, until I know a lot more. I trust Kenneth to be honest about what he experiences as he goes along, especially over longer periods of time. I am in no hurry. Something inside is telling me to be skeptical and let the mountain men settle Apache territory -- before the settlers move in. Or, maybe we'll be the designated drivers

Hi Chris.

I appreciate this response. I'm quite a sensitive person, particularly sensitive to pressure I place on myself. Outside pressure makes it worse. In this sense, I am currently dealing with my own pressured sense to achiever 4th path. I'm doing much better than I would have thought with that--3rd path helps--and yet it is quite an internal object/set of psychological habits to grapple with and try to disidentify from.

The notion that 4th path is an "ISness" where you are still a normal human being has been my explicit spiritual goal now for over 5 years, even since I realized that enlightenment doesn't make one into a robot or make one perfect. It took a lot of practice and hard work just to accept that intellectual insight, to let go of superman ideal of a perfected or absent small-self. Indeed, I am still trying to grok that lessen. That Kenneth et al. held the same idea and yet had a pull to practice was a 1-2 that was incredibly attractive.

But now there is this new goal past even that, and I haven't even reached the first! It might be just me, but this shift is a huge adjustment for me, reformulating my entire cognitive framework where this all might end. I'm a cautious person. Last night I was even pretty convinced I needed to stop interacting with this community, as it has been such a shift and I don't feel the container that I need just to hold the 4th path and its aftermath (assuming I reach it) because that has become a marginal goal and I will be pushed quickly on to direct path teachings which are only partially tested.

I am not quite this nuts by the way--I am venting my honest anxiety hoping to relieve it. I know I've got a choice ultimately. Maybe at 4th path the pressure will dissipate and I will wait and see. And I should have known. This is an experimental community; where the ground shifts. The duck quacked; I wish it had quacked a bit later.

Hi Mark,

I am finding your posts very relevant to where I am currently. I came to 4th Path under Kenneth's direction a couple of months ago. This was an arrival but also left a big gap. Seeking had been really attenuated - what next?
My sense is you can go lots of different ways. I see the direct perceptioners going one way. Alex Weith seems to be investigating something different to with awareness in deep sleep. The bodisattva path is another approach, and is the one I am currently investigating.
I was brought up spiritually in a mahayana sangha. I tried to be very idealistic and couldn't hack it. I felt people were practicing quite high practices too soon. My focus became very strongly on individual liberation and lead over a number of years to 4th Path.
Now though I am opening upto those practices again, and experiencing them in much deeper an authentic way. I don't feel that motivated to practice for myself at the moment - it doesn't make sense at some level.
Neither however, am I practicing for others in any kind of self-conscious way which is arrogant and leads to all kinds of problems.
What I am doing through the bodhicitta practices is exploring the non-separation of myself and others that became increasing apparent as I moved through the 4th Path model.
After the 4th Path the question is how can I live my realization?
The lojong practices from the tibetan tradition are as practical as anything else I've come across.
in the same way Kenneth talks about the dropping the pod person who covers up our unsuffering nature and not not holding a position, these pratices demand exactly the same thing.
When Nik talks about being able to let go of his subtle suffering when he sees a woman on the street, lojong invites us to the same by moving our mind away from our desires to the reality of the person we are encountering.

ctd
Last night I was teaching a very beautiful woman meditation. When I sensed attraction arising I moved my focus to see th world from her side and dropped my own program - what was left was a warm open approriateness with no suffering. This movement to the other is perhaps a little like the movement into the senses in the DP mode away from the concern with our own agendas and inner world and out into the living breathing reality in front of us.
Suffering dissappears not because it is dropped but because it is universalized, as you take on the other more and more your capacity to dissolve suffering grows accordingly. This is staying in our realizaton.
I am in no way against the DP investigations and feel sure I will come to it at some time.
In the end perhaps we don't have that much choice about what we follow - there space for all kinds of approaches.
what is great about this sight is the spirit of investigation. By nature i can be a somewhat overbearing enthusiast. But the very nature of investigation is it takes time perhaps a long time unitil we get to know the territory we are entering.

"But I find their way easy to follow because they have that larger, traditional, interpersonal container and I think if this new teaching is going to persuade others that a similar articulation will need to arise."-mdaf30

Mark, you are in the bargaining phase. It's usually some variation on "I'll agree to getting enlightened if I can have it my way." One example is "I'll let teacher 'x' help me get enlightened if he can convince me that his way is better than the teaching of teacher 'y'." It happens to almost everyone, I think. But it's just a phase. No matter who your guide is, your enlightenment will be your own. It won't look exactly like anyone else's and it will change through the years as you grow and become interested in different things. Of course I feel the pressure to create a religion here, with a full-blown "view" that people can adopt at least provisionally as a support for their practice. But I prefer to keep this very stripped down; people can come here for targeted advice about how to practice while getting their view from the larger cultural and religious frameworks all around us.

Bargaining is one of the Kubler-Ross stages of grief and dying, which are 1) denial, 2) anger, 3) bargaining, 4) depression, and 5) acceptance. Your ego is dying. You will grieve. See it all as the passing parade. Put your head down and practice. When acceptance comes, you will move to the next level, whatever that is. None of this is up to us, and trying to script it in advance is an exercise in futility.

Hi Mark,

I just went back and read some of your thread which I hadn't before I posted.
I posted after reading your comments on NIk's thread and jumped over without checking the background of where you're coming from.
I;m aware I've posted on your thread what should've been posted on mine.
So please don't take anything I've said about bodhisattva stuff detract from what this site can offer which is a very precise direct way to getting though the 4 paths.
It really is best to get that sorted first.

No worries Richard. I found your post very helpful and it doesn't detract at all from my earnest interest in proceeding through the 4 paths.

Mark

Last meditated 1 hr. Had done another 50 minute sit and 25 minute walk earlier in the day.

Noted for about 10 minutes. Sadness, calm, energy in the head, energy in the eyes, frustration were some more common ones. Then went silent. Some strong eye contractions, lots of inner lights. Less physical kriyas. About 20-25 minutes in the witness became more easily accessible (takes just a little shift in attention). Noticed another significant shift at about 40 minutes or so, which is that thoughts became "puffy," taking on a cloudy, energetic quality. This corresponded to a feeling of very soft energy gently permeating the entire head area. The amount of thinking reduced dramatically. Thoughts are certainly still present, but more subtle and of a different and much-less-bothersome quality. There was no insight accompanying this, other than it is a wonderfully pleasant state. I was in and out of witnessing this state, sometimes in, sometimes watching. Definitely the most compelling state I've got going.

I am seeing why 40 minutes to an 1 hr is a commonly recommended meditation time, as it seems to take about 40 minutes and really 50 for the mind/brain to settle into this phase of things (at least for me, perhaps for others at a similar place). Also, the difference between being "in" the state versus "watching" the state is dramatic. Much more powerful to watch, like surfing the wave instead of trying to swim through it. Much less interference. The mind loves to get attached to drama, anxiety, curiousity and commentary. Like an energetic cling. Got to bring it back to watching.

A question that is popping up for me--and I know it's bounced around before--is whether thought-free meditation (nirvakalpa samadhi) is necessarily a cessation experience (like winking out)? Or can it be conscious?