Owen's Practice Journal, Part II

"But I really don't want to have an AF debate on my practice thread, so... I'm not gonna. "

Ah got it! =). Lookin' forward to it.

I find (via Nick's suggestion) that if I notice the qualities of the arupa jhanas in my present experience, I flip almost automatically into pce territory. The trick it seems is to not attempt to achieve a pce, but rather just to notice without manipulation that the spaciousness, consciousness, nothingness and existence/non existence nature of the phenomena arising via the six sense doors.

Keeping a thread of awareness on this fact during all of my waking hours seems like all I need to do.

Nick got me with that one too....Ha!

Owen: "The trick it seems is to not attempt to achieve a pce, but rather just to notice without manipulation that the spaciousness, consciousness, nothingness and existence/non existence nature of the phenomena arising via the six sense doors."

fun stuff. could you describe a bit how you experience the actual qualities of the 8th jhana? i think i've pinpointed the qualities of 5th, 6th, and 7th, but 8th one i usually think of as 'being' going in and out - or maybe more accurately, some kind of awareness - but what are those qualities like in a pce?

"Owen: "The trick it seems is to not attempt to achieve a pce, but rather just to notice without manipulation that the spaciousness, consciousness, nothingness and existence/non existence nature of the phenomena arising via the six sense doors."

fun stuff. could you describe a bit how you experience the actual qualities of the 8th jhana? i think i've pinpointed the qualities of 5th, 6th, and 7th, but 8th one i usually think of as 'being' going in and out - or maybe more accurately, some kind of awareness - but what are those qualities like in a pce?"

If I could adequately describe the 8th jhana, it wouldn't be the 8th jhana.

"If I could adequately describe the 8th jhana, it wouldn't be the 8th jhana.
"

hehe, let me re-phrase:

1) how do you access it differently than regular-8th-jhana? why does doing it that way result in PCE instead of resulting in cessation (NS) or the PLs?

2) in what way does it differ in qualities from that 8th jhana, if at all?

3) can you pinpoint what the perception that is neither-there-nor-not-there is? is it the same thing in both 8th jhanas (if they are different)?

"hehe, let me re-phrase:

1) how do you access it differently than regular-8th-jhana? why does doing it that way result in PCE instead of resulting in cessation (NS) or the PLs?

2) in what way does it differ in qualities from that 8th jhana, if at all?

3) can you pinpoint what the perception that is neither-there-nor-not-there is? is it the same thing in both 8th jhanas (if they are different)?"

Getting into territory that's not good for language. I encourge you to try it for yourself and see.

On 2nd gear being impossible, I'm curious what happens if you start making a lot of opinionated I statements out loud that you sincerely attempt to believe. Is it possible for you to believe them for even a second or does auto-vipassana kick in?

If you can believe the I-ranting, does the sense of I arise in the middle of your head and would you then be able to lock 2nd gear?

"On 2nd gear being impossible, I'm curious what happens if you start making a lot of opinionated I statements out loud that you sincerely attempt to believe. Is it possible for you to believe them for even a second or does auto-vipassana kick in?

If you can believe the I-ranting, does the sense of I arise in the middle of your head and would you then be able to lock 2nd gear?"

Oh god that sounds unpleasant. Here is my reaction to the idea of going back to being embedded:

Thanks for the video, I needed the laugh, and to put things in perspective.
How's the toe doing?? I hear it's very unpleasant to break the little suckers!
It just occurred to me that asking about your toe is about how much I can contribute to the discussion on your thread. Which also made me laugh.

"How's the toe doing?? I hear it's very unpleasant to break the little suckers!
"

Hi Rev, thanks for asking. The toe heals. I have to wrap the little bugger up each morning - but on the upside I get to wear flip-flips to work for the next 6 weeks. Score.
Actually, all the unpleasant sensations coming from my toe got me thinking about vedana, and with a couple of good pointers from Nick I started a bit of an investigation. It seems that vedana is a signal, and like all signals can be hacked. Painful, Pleasant, and neutral tones are conditioned via sañña.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%C3%B1%C3%B1%C4%81

If something is a conditioning factor, then by changing that factor experience can be changed along with it. If you want to have a really fun day, simply keep a thread of awareness on the body - specifically noting feeling tone. Once you get a good flow of noting going, assume that all sensation are going to be or are somehow pleasant.

For example, getting out of bed this morning I was a touch tired and my body felt slow and heavy. Instead of continuing that perceptual stream, I instead changed my assumption that slow and heavy was bad and re-narrated it to "relaxed and solid". Once I did that, vedana notes were all pleasant. Also, on the subway I got crowded and felt what would have been previously read as anxiety. I flipped it to seeing all that movement around the hara and solar plexus and internal energy movements that were almost a DEEP tissue massage working out blocks. Vedana was again flipped to pleasant. I find that if I do this all day the "selfing" phenomena looses it ability to arise and I stay in a state of near constant joy or a pce. I'm observing that "selfing" is an unskilful and deeply conditioned protective mechanism and if you remove the layer on which it depends, it softens and then (hopefully) stops.

"I find that if I do this all day the "selfing" phenomena looses it ability to arise and I stay in a state of near constant joy or a pce. I'm observing that "selfing" is an unskilful and deeply conditioned protective mechanism and if you remove the layer on which it depends, it softens and then (hopefully) stops.
-Owen"

How about turning it the other way around? Interestingly as my selfing have recently softened a great deal, life has become almost a constant joy. Unpleasantness is really hard to come by and does not last long.

[Edited to add a clarification:
I did not mean that one should start preferring unpleasant feeling tone over pleasant, but to point out an observation that it seems to work both ways. As the selfing is reduced, not only is tension reduced but also the reading of vedana seems to change so that the remaining tension is felt less unpleasant. That is something I had not considered before you pointed it out.]

"How about turning it the other way around? Interestingly as my selfing have recently softened a great deal, life has become almost a constant joy. Unpleasantness is really hard to come by and does not last long."

Why would you want to? This seems like a really high-class problem.

" assume that all sensation are going to be or are somehow pleasant.

"

I'm a bit confused, I assume this is post fourth practice?
I'm currently trying to just see bare sensation, wouldn't this be considered a manipulation of the experience?Sorry, if this is a silly question, but I'm trying to keep up with the thread, and am discovering I have very short legs.

"I'm a bit confused, I assume this is post fourth practice?
I'm currently trying to just see bare sensation, wouldn't this be considered a manipulation of the experience?Sorry, if this is a silly question, but I'm trying to keep up with the thread, and am discovering I have very short legs."

No need to apologize, happy to have you here. I don't know if this is post 4th practice or not, it's just something I'm playing with these days. I say try it and let me know how it goes.

"I'm a bit confused, I assume this is post fourth practice?
I'm currently trying to just see bare sensation, wouldn't this be considered a manipulation of the experience?Sorry, if this is a silly question, but I'm trying to keep up with the thread, and am discovering I have very short legs."

I hear it can be a good practice - one that leads you to be equanimous - to find the pleasantness in unpleasant sensations, and the unpleasantness in pleasant sensations. if you can do that you can be equanimous whichever arises.

Interesting development last night. I went through the jhanic arc but instead the breath I took the flow of becoming as my primary object. Each jhana felt somehow more complete, as if there was nothing left out. No sense of a witness observing the jhana.

As I went up through the rupa jhanas, I noticed my sense of self dropping out and being replaced over and over. I think I noticed phenomena that looked like past lives possible future rebirths. Going through the dukkha nanas they got a touch unpleasant, almost preyta-like. The trip through the arpua jhanas got very vivid, I was space - consciousness - void and ?.

I had something like NS as I exited the 8th, but it was very different. Instead of senses turning off, my eyes went wide open and "I" turned off, leaving only the body and mind. This morning I woke up being incredibly peaceful, but feeling like I was missing something. My normal level of desire and aversion has gone down almost to nothing leaving the body feeling very calm and relaxed.

Owen: "No sense of a witness observing the jhana."

You said 2nd gear is impossible now. Can you expand on that - how come it's impossible, and how come you can still have jhana with a sense of a witness observing the jhana? (I think I know what you mean about the completeness of the jhanas btw, I think I've experienced that as well.)

"I had something like NS as I exited the 8th, but it was very different. Instead of senses turning off, my eyes went wide open and "I" turned off, leaving only the body and mind."

did you basically enter a PCE or was it different?

lots of fun stuff..

"Owen: "No sense of a witness observing the jhana."

You said 2nd gear is impossible now. Can you expand on that - how come it's impossible, and how come you can still have jhana with a sense of a witness observing the jhana? (I think I know what you mean about the completeness of the jhanas btw, I think I've experienced that as well.)

"I had something like NS as I exited the 8th, but it was very different. Instead of senses turning off, my eyes went wide open and "I" turned off, leaving only the body and mind."

did you basically enter a PCE or was it different?

lots of fun stuff.. "

Man, I wish I could be clearer with this stuff. I'm in unknown (to me) territory. Sorry.

"Man, I wish I could be clearer with this stuff. I'm in unknown (to me) territory. Sorry."

ah no worries, me too, that's why im asking =P. but i do seem to be trending more towards actuality so whatever it is, it seems its working.

Fun fact for post-path yogis. If you will the mind to stay in the exit territory post fruition or post NS, you will hit a pce. This is classically called "the fruition attainment". Everything old is new again.
Many thanks to Ron Serrano for this bit.

Can anyone else confirm it? Only got four data points so far.

hey Owen, could you go into what this "I" that won't be happy is as compared to the "I" in the "I"-sense that you earlier reported disappeared?

Owen: ""I" will never be happy. "I" will never be comfortable. The "I" is in fact the basic problem. "I" gotta go. "

vs.

Owen: "4th path/5th stage is a cognitive dis-embedding. The sense of self still arises, although it is seen as not-self in real time... This is what goes away at 7."

"Owen: ""I" will never be happy. "I" will never be comfortable. The "I" is in fact the basic problem. "I" gotta go. "

vs.

Owen: "4th path/5th stage is a cognitive dis-embedding. The sense of self still arises, although it is seen as not-self in real time... This is what goes away at 7.""

Sure, though this is still shaping up in my practice so subject to change.

Look at the 12 nidanas and notice the volitional formations are caused by ignorance. Specifically, ignorance of the non-self nature of phenomena. This is the beginning of the process of becoming. Becoming (or "selfing) is what's missing in a pce, or in more classical language "the fruition attainment".
In the technical model of 4th path the cognitive disembedding has occurred, but there is a lot of subtle (and sometimes gross) stuff that has yet to be completely seen through. In the 10 fetters model ALL of the disembedding has been accomplished so becoming itself completely stops. So the problem is that in a Technical 4th pather, the feeling of being of being (vedana) is arising and caused by thoughts that are not getting seen as not-self in real time. This can take a while to get noticed as a problem, if ever. When I was referring to "I" gotta go, this is the "I" that seems to be remaining. I notice that as I observe the thought stream as energy movements belonging to nobody in particular, the fruition attainment manifests.

Anyway, that's the current working theory. Given how these processes of disembedding seem to manifest for advanced yogis, I'm beginning to wonder if this territory can be reliably mapped at all in ways other than the 10 fetters model. In any case, it's one hell of a high standard, which might contribute to its unpopularity.

"Fun fact for post-path yogis. If you will the mind to stay in the exit territory post fruition or post NS, you will hit a pce. This is classically called "the fruition attainment". Everything old is new again.
Many thanks to Ron Serrano for this bit.

Can anyone else confirm it? Only got four data points so far.

"

Hmmmm...

Yes and No. I'm still a little remedial in the PCE department, and am not sure I totally get when I'm in one or not, however, I find that I can make the moment after NS last for some time (especially if I leave my eyes closed), and that there is this weird combination of feeling grounded in the senses while also feeling lighter and relaxed. Not sure if that is a PCE, it feels kind of weak compared to the descriptions I read, however, I could see it pointing in that direction.

Let me ask you this: is the PCE the same thing as the thrill and relaxation one gets when doing the DM practice of grounding? Are we talking about the same thing here?

I feel a bit confused about this stuff...

"Hmmmm...

Yes and No. I'm still a little remedial in the PCE department, and am not sure I totally get when I'm in one or not, however, I find that I can make the moment after NS last for some time (especially if I leave my eyes closed), and that there is this weird combination of feeling grounded in the senses while also feeling lighter and relaxed. Not sure if that is a PCE, it feels kind of weak compared to the descriptions I read, however, I could see it pointing in that direction.

Let me ask you this: is the PCE the same thing as the thrill and relaxation one gets when doing the DM practice of grounding? Are we talking about the same thing here?

I feel a bit confused about this stuff..."

Hi Ron,
In a PCE/Fruition Attainment, there is a center-less quality, an intense stillness and a total lack of emotion and dualistic perception.
In essence, it's a path moment - but extended and walking around. If you resolve to extend the bounce back from a fruition (while sitting) and "hold" it as you re-appear, the "You" doesn't re-appear. While the "You" or the becoming is suppressed, it's a PCE/FA. When your sense of self comes back, you are out of it.