Questions about motivation and kasinas

Prelude: This post is probably too long, but I couldn't figure out what stuff I could safely delete without giving insufficient information for you guys to answer the questions. So, please feel free to skip whatever you believe is unnecessary.

Hi all,

I don't think I've made a real introduction here but I'm just another hardcore dharma fan, inspired by MCTB but finding value in both this forum and in the DhO too. Unfortunately, I have a terrible hindrance to my practice, and really to a whole lot of things in my life -- inaction. Often procrastination. Sometimes laziness, but laziness is only present some of the time when I'm lacking initiative. In reality, I'd attribute my inaction more to some variety of learned helplessness than to laziness because that first description seems to be present any time I'm inactive.

I know this isn't a psychotherapy forum, and since MCTB was my very first introduction to Buddhist meditation, I've never been under the delusion that insight or concentration sitting time is a good time to "make love to thoughts" about things that trouble me. The reason I've brought it up is that it's having a major impact on the amount of time I do or don't spend on sittings. My insight practice seems to move pretty quickly when I actually build up momentum, but the problem is getting and maintaining the momentum instead of letting procrastination and discomfort stop my practice. It took a heroic dose of DMT to get me across the A&P event a second time after abandoning insight meditation once. (I abandoned it because I didn't realize that I was a dark night yogi, not having had a clearly recognizable A&P event the first time it happened.) Then I lost momentum after a week or two, and only resumed practicing when I realized that the dark night was really not going to just magically go away.
cont...

So after the dark night kicked my ass until I got so sick and tired of being sick and tired that I had to meditate, I eventually happened upon low equanimity. My sucky concentration keeps any of the insight stages from being "hard" in the sense of "hard and soft jhana." but the shift out of reobservation and into panoramic, accepting attention beyond pleasure and pain was clear.

That was about 3-4 weeks ago. Then I lost momentum again and now I barely have access to equanimity anymore. I feel like a pre-A&P yogi now -- sometimes my sits get stuck in Three Characteristics with its weird body stuff. Though it's possible that I'm confusing Three Characteristics with Reobservation, because they both share the "oh my god, get it AWAY FROM ME" feeling that I find it so difficult to disembed from. I know you guys have to know the feeling, having gone farther past it than I ever have.

Long story short, what types of things do you do in the sila or "living a good life" department in order to keep yourself meditating even when your meditations are mostly bad or mostly boring? (Low equanimity is kind of boring, and the constant mild bodily pain is negatively reinforcing from a behavioral standpoint even though by the time I reach equanimity, I really don't care about the feeling at all.) I would love to set up some kind of regular correspondence with a teacher, perhaps Kenneth, but I would probably need to wait until after I've found a summer job to do that. Any other tips?

cont...

Now, almost done!

What is the total no-bovine-excrement, no-mushroom answer to what I can really expect from kasina practice? I have ADHD and concentration is really hard for me even with medicine. I've only ever had a few shamatha experiences with really weak first jhana, and a bit of experience with shamatha-fying insight stages into weak jhana. Neither of those is helpful for insight meditation because the whole idea is to use shamatha to worm your way into a stratum of mind that you couldn't have gotten to with the bare vipassana technique, right? Or do I misunderstand it?

If I can get about 45 minutes of kasina practice every other day, what can I realistically expect after a month? I hate to come to this place, which emphasizes patience and acceptance, and bring such a stereotypically Western overambitious "I want results now" attitude. Believe me, I would prefer to have the equanimity to not care what results happen and just spend a year doing an hour of kasina practice a day and see what happens, but the cold hard fact is that I don't have the requisite mental strengths to do that. I imagine this situation isn't too unusual among 20 year olds with ADHD -- but I don't want to wait until I'm 30 to make real progress in meditation.

Final post! (You know you're glad. Sorry this took so long. If someone wants me to split this into multiple threads, I can do that.)


If kasina practice is really worth the time, I want to do what I can to help, but I need some results to happen along the way otherwise I'm going to lose encouragement no matter what forum I go to or what path-havers encourage me. If I can't get that, I'll just stick with the bare insight technique until stream entry. But stream entry may take a while, and if kasina can genuinely help before then, I think I'd be capable of committing to something. Even if it's pathetic like 30 minutes of insight alternating with 30 minutes of kasina every other day, if that will really do something, I'll do it for the sake of trying to create a regular meditation practice of any magnitude.

So, what do you think? Do kasina regardless of the cost of eye drops and time, because the benefits are clearly worth it in this case? Get a real relationship going with a qualified meditation teacher regardless of the cost of that too? Stick with bare insight through stream entry, even if it takes me months to build the concentration required to actually cause the path moment to occur?

Hi JAdamG,

motivation: Obviously you have some natural interest and motivation in all of this or else you wouldn't be here. Everyone's source of inspiration is idiosyncratic, so what works for others may not work for you and vice versa. So why not find and nurture your own inherent interest in all this? Some possibilities to try:

- Reflect on what in your life has brought you to this point.
- Imagine yourself on your deathbed in a life where you never took up the path and see what that means to you and how you feel about it.
- Keep a journal where you can store your thoughts, feelings, progresses and setbacks. Do any patterns emerge? What can you learn from it?
- Imagine what advice you would give to a stranger who had the same issues you have. (i.e. try to address things from a 3rd person point of view rather than 1st person)
- Try sampling a variety of books, movies, talks, etc that seem interesting and relevant. You are bound to find some inspirational stuff that way.

practice discipline: I think you should try to balance discipline and fun in your practice. Think of it as similar to exercising your body. You don't want to be too flippant about things or else you'll never get in shape. But if you try taking the boot camp approach, you probably are not going to be able to maintain it over a long period of time. You want something that is efficient but also sustainable.

How to balance discipline and fun, efficiency and sustainability? That's another idiosyncratic thing. Personally I sometimes like to practice while going for walks, or sometimes while exercising or playing sports or watching TV or movies or listening to music, etc. Practice itself can be intrinsically rewarding too if you approach it with the spirit of openness and curiosity, rather than one of duty and expectation.

The balancing of effort and concentration as referenced in MCTB is relevant here too.

expectation, attainments, maps, etc: Another thing that needs balance. These things can be useful in moderation but harmful in excess. You seem like you might be on the side of excess. Does it really matter where you are on a map? You still have to do basically the same practice no matter what. Doesn't it seem like the worst way to get into equanimity is to worry about how you should get into equanimity? One of the most important things I've learned from Kenneth is just a general attitude of being non-manipulative and lettings things unfold at their own pace. Trust in the process and it will work. If you try to micromanage or impose your will on how things unfold then the most likely outcome is that you'll just get in your own way. Focus on your technique (actually doing the practice as it was meant to be done) and let the results take care of themselves. Ironically that is the best way to get results.

teacher: Yes, try to find a teacher. Kenneth would be a great choice.

Kasina is great.

When you are hard focusing on a single disc and notice a rise in joy/energy/warmth/etc, You are entering 1st Jhana. If you let your eyes cross slightly so you see two discs with a wedge in the middle, and allow the wedge to become the point of focus (think balanced activity in hemispheres) you'll enter into second Jhana (notice the different sensations, less physical exhilaration more joy). Next allow the focus to become completely diffuse, notice the sensations of coolness on the skin, this is third Jhana. Finally allow the focus to expan and include all sensations in all sense doors 360 degrees. This is 4th Jhana.

"Kasina is great.

When you are hard focusing on a single disc and notice a rise in joy/energy/warmth/etc, You are entering 1st Jhana. If you let your eyes cross slightly so you see two discs with a wedge in the middle, and allow the wedge to become the point of focus (think balanced activity in hemispheres) you'll enter into second Jhana (notice the different sensations, less physical exhilaration more joy). Next allow the focus to become completely diffuse, notice the sensations of coolness on the skin, this is third Jhana. Finally allow the focus to expan and include all sensations in all sense doors 360 degrees. This is 4th Jhana."

So bizarre. mumuwu, you make it sound like all you have to do is stare at the kasina object and -- boom -- first, second, third, fourth jhana -- just like that.
is that really how it was for you? that simple and easy?

Edited to make it sound like i wasn't biting Mike's head off, because it wasn't meant to sound testy...

Edited to add that I have been mistaking Mumuwu for someone else who posted about getting stream entry. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Listen, I am all for using kasinas. I used one to help me get concentrated enough to keep noting. I didn't care if I was accessing jhana. I just wanted to feel concentrated enough to note continuously. It helps tremendously in that respect. The more concentrated the yogi the faster the progress. But you don't need to be accessing jhana to get stream entry. It helps but it ain't vital. Use the kasina to keep noting and go directly for stream entry.I wouldn't waste too much time cultivating jhanas, although if you are good at it, go for it. But dont fret over whether you have access or not. If you can continuously note your experience and you are getting up to high equanmity, rather than noting, try "riding" the vibrations and sensations that are associated with equanimity of formations. You may find that the mind shifts to 4th jhana automatically. Noting will get you up to equanimity of formations nana, from there if you are interested, ride the vibes to shift into 4th jhana, from there you will have access to the lower ones and you can then use the jhanas to get to the 4th one and then shift to noting. It's all easier after you pop. Ask Ron!

This was my exact experience.

"

Mumuwu got stream entry recently, didn't he? So of course it is going to be easier for him.

"

I'm not questioning whether it happened or not just how simple it all sounded. Plus I didn't know he was post path.
I stare at the kasina and it does all kinds of things but it certainly doesn't create any jhana-like symptoms in me.

"So bizarre. mumuwu, you make it sound like all you have to do is stare at the kasina object and -- boom -- first, second, third, fourth jhana -- just like that.
is that really how it was for you? that simple and easy? "

Yes. It was, but I think I attained stream entry previously via psychedelics. I am not sure though. I have been playing around with the 1st Jhana via samatha for some time. I think the thing to be aware of is that the Jhana can vary from Hard to Soft. Most times it isn't hard and it is just a feeling of energy/heat/pleasantness but sometimes it is a big rush.

But by all means, use it to feel concentrated and then start noting from there. I only realized recently that certain sensations were related to Jhanas and what belonged where. But the sensation of an increase in energy, warmth, pleasant feelings very shortly after staring at the Kasina is something that happens all the time. I realize now that this is the Jhana. The intensity varies, but that taste is first Jhana.

"Yes. It was, but I think I attained stream entry previously via psychedelics. I am not sure though. I have been playing around with the 1st Jhana via samatha for some time. I think the thing to be aware of is that the Jhana can vary from Hard to Soft. Most times it isn't hard and it is just a feeling of energy/heat/pleasantness but sometimes it is a big rush.

But by all means, use it to feel concentrated and then start noting from there. I only realized recently that certain sensations were related to Jhanas and what belonged where. But the sensation of an increase in energy, warmth, pleasant feelings very shortly after staring at the Kasina is something that happens all the time. I realize now that this is the Jhana. The intensity varies, but that taste is first Jhana."

thanks

Your welcome. If it helps at all, the Kasina wasn't doing this the first few times I tried it, it just helped me develop access concentration. It was after doing 4 foundations practice for a few days that the energy started moving around and the Kasina started having the present effect.

" just how simple it all sounded. ...
I stare at the kasina and it does all kinds of things but it certainly doesn't create any jhana-like symptoms in me. "

I can relate to that! I bust my butt and lucky to get some good awareness of mind and body 8^} Some horses seem to be very fast -- and talented, dedicated and disciplined. I'm just hoping the tortoise strategy also works, even for slow turtles

Stream entry via psychedelics? How does that work?

"I'm not questioning whether it happened or not just how simple it all sounded. Plus I didn't know he was post path.
I stare at the kasina and it does all kinds of things but it certainly doesn't create any jhana-like symptoms in me. "

Sorry Mike, I re-read my post and it sounded testy. Wasn't mean to. Apologies!

"... you make it sound like all you have to do is stare at the kasina object and -- boom -- first, second, third, fourth jhana -- just like that."

Hey Mike, a quick level set -- the jhanas actually do manifest that way post-path. If you have easy access to them (which path tends to cause) it's a snap to get into one and/or and rise up through them very quickly. I remember when that first happened to me, I was all of a sudden walking around all day long in jhana-land, light headed all the time, able to bop in and out of them at the drop of a hat, at will, in the middle of meetings, while driving, whenever. If kasina practice helps (I have never done it) then I'd say go for it.

That's kind of why I asked about psychedelics -- if that works to get stream entry, well then...

Well, I think I may have crossed the A&P and then went through dark night type stuff followed by several years of various practices.



I still don't know much about stream entry or if I have attained that.

cmarti,

What you describe here seems to be where I'm at now. I think I had some big insights this week, a lot of what I had been experiencing became very clear via the maps and insight practices until I noticed a lot of energy building up. Check out my practice journal. The ability to continue to build concentration while talking to someone is new to me in the past week or so.

"Yes. It was, but I think I attained stream entry previously via psychedelics. I am not sure though." then "I still don't know much about stream entry or if I have attained that."

I would argue for a little more light and a little less smoke, mumuwu. One of the best things about this place is the honesty and the no bullsh*t approach we all take with each other and with respect to reporting on our practice. Not being straightforward leads to misunderstandings and then a lot of uncertainty. To be taken serously here is a great gift, IMHO. Just sayin'

Peace

EDIT -- I have read your practice journal.

I think I have been mistaking Mumuwu for someone else who recently got 1st path. my apologies for making that mistaken assumption. Sorry dude! I might be the blame for this misunderstanding. For some reason due to all the excitement of a couple of people popping recently I just mistook one for someone else. My bad.

Nick

Noted. My appologies.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I hadn't thought to use noting during kasina practice -- I'll definitely try that once access or 1st jhana hits. I can get mind and body to arise pretty easily through mindful progressive muscle relaxation, so if I can do that, then use a kasina to solidify the concentration, I should be in a good place to do noting practice.

I'll work on the suggestion to stop trying to control the insight stages. It's somewhat instinctive for me to start going "get it away!" when Three Characteristics or Dark Night arises during insight practices. I can usually get to Low Equanimity by doing that, but I probably need to totally drop any attempt to control it once I'm there, and it may end up being way easier to get through the Dark Night part of a sit if I don't control it at all.

So, takeaways: let the practice do itself a bit more, and use kasina as a foundation for noting practice.

mumuwu: Haha, you got me a bit too excited when you said you thought you had attained stream entry with psychedelics. I had always thought that the classical psychedelics weren't capable of triggering more than the A&P. They absolutely can do that, and I suppose you could say that they'll trigger dukkha nana symptoms in dark night yogis because those follow the A&P naturally. In line with that, I've never found myself any higher than late Reobservation from the results of a psychedelic, and even that requires intense mindfulness practice throughout the entire trip.

"cmarti,

What you describe here seems to be where I'm at now. I think I had some big insights this week, a lot of what I had been experiencing became very clear via the maps and insight practices until I noticed a lot of energy building up. Check out my practice journal. The ability to continue to build concentration while talking to someone is new to me in the past week or so."

Hi mumuwu,

Just out of curiosity, do you experience fruitions, blips, a sudden split second darkness where the mind goes out now and then, just after equanimity of formations nana?

Nick

Nick,

No. Not that I've noticed as of yet. Right now it's just this rising and lowering energy. I haven't really done much noting with it yet or any formal meditation, I've just been kind of enjoying this new feeling of rightness with everything (equanimity I guess). Like I was saying to my girlfriend yesterday when I banged my thumb "it only hurts in my thumb, but everything else feels great so it's just a tiny piece of what I'm experiencing now and it's just bare sensations so no biggie. This coke tastes much better than my thumb hurts."