Enlightenment

I listened to your interview on Buddhistgeeks.com and located this site. I also heard Daniel Ingram on that site sometime ago, downloaded his book MCTB and have read parts of it. I have bee practising vipassana meditation as taught by S. N Goenka for about four years and have attended two 10 day retreats in that tradition. I am a Hindu, have read the Gita, Upanishads, Shankaracharya, Raman Maharshi, Nisargadutta Maharaj, Ramesh Balsekar, Jaddu Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle. I left Vedanta and advaita as I could not find a clear path to follow in that tradition. I have not been able to understand what is meant by Ramam Maharshi's path of self enquiry or pursue the question ,"Who am I ?" I thought advaita and the Buddhist teachings were to parallel paths and were mutually exclusive adn did not meet. I am excited by your assertion that they can and do meet and I am loking forward to the reconciliation of the the two appraoches in your three speed transmission. I am also wondering whether I shoudl continue with the Goenka tradition or change over to mahashi Saydaw traditon.

Welcome Gurudas!!

What part of India are you from?
I have fond memories of living in India for a year. Edited to say, I assume you are from India.....sorry if that is wrong.

I was in the Goenka tradtion for 9 years. Over two years ago I included the mahasi tecnique along with awareness of the subtlest of vibrations on the body, which Goenka's tecnique eventually takes you to. It was a very powerful combination. Clayton could also talk about combining the two. Both of us got 1st path with it. Kenneth has said if he was Prince of the world, he would make everyone practice the noting tecnique. My opinion is it will get you enlightened quicker. But the goenka/u ba khin method shouldn't be thrown out. You can include it in your yogi tool box.

Check Yadid's practice notes. We talked about combining the two techniques there. There are actually a few discussions here talking about combining the two.

I am sure you will get a wealth of info and advice here for any of your questions.

Once again, namaste and welcome!

Hi GurudasBailur,

You don't have to sign up for any tradition at all. Think in terms of skills to learn and tools to put in your yogi toolbox. Borrow freely from whatever tradition makes sense to you. I certainly recommend adding the Mahasi noting practice to your toolbox.

Enlightenment is an aspect of human potential. In other words, it doesn't belong to any tradition, and you don't have to believe any particular doctrine to awaken. All of the contemplative traditions, taken together, can be seen as a treasure trove of useful and effective tools for awakening.

May you awaken in this lifetime,

Kenneth

Many thanks for your message of welcome. Yes, I am from India., but which part of it is difficult to say. Born on the western coast near Goa, studied in Mumbai, worked in New Delhi and the Punjab, settled in Bangalore. Studied sanskrit, been to all the holy places in India, including Tiruvennmalai, Raman Maharshi's ashram. and Belur math of Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Vivekananda.

Do I need a teacher to learn the Mahashi technique one to one? I attend weekly one hour group sittings in the Goenka traditon here in London United Kingdom and full day sittings on some Sundays. I try to observe the changing nature of sensations in day to day life and note their arising and passing away. On the cushion, while I do experience sensations I do not experience vibrations or their arising and passing away.
I hope to find a teacher in London who can teach me the Mahashi technique. I have yet to do a Satipatttana course in Goenka traditon

Many thanks Kenneth.I will go through all the meterial on this website and get back to you seeking your advice on procedding further in my quest, for something, which the Masters say cannot be found by effort!

Hey Gurudas,

Welcome. Glad to have you aboard. I like Nick was trained in the Goenka tradition. Fortunately for me I didn't hang around it for 9 years before being introduced to Noting practice. I remember when I hit the dark night I wrote Kenneth a panic stricken note, "How do I do noting, I am scared, all I know how to do is body scanning... blah blah haha"

Well Kenneth said it well. You don't need to sign up for anything. But I would recommend looking at the instructions on this site for noting. I continue to scan my body as taught by Goenka, but instead of just sortof feeling the sensations I note consciously. This includes mind states as well. Doing this I managed to land first path this past February... I didn't expect to get path this way. I was in equanimity and was trying to figure out how to switch to pure noting practice. Then one day I sat down not really worried about progress (which was and is unusual for me) and Blip... Blip... Blip... got my hit. So I dunno I think its a personal thing that just takes some personal practice to find out what works well for you.

Many thanks for your encouragement. I have read or just glanced through your practice notes and those of Nick and Yadid and I am overwhelmed. Some of it sounds Greek and Latin to me! I will go thorugh all the material, study it carefully, reread MCTB, continue Goenka's vipassana practice (incorporating in it the noting paractice) and see where it lands me. I have a very long way to go, undestanding esoteric words, like kasina, first , second and third path and the terminology of this pracitce. Apart from MCTB of Daniel Ingram, do you recommend any other book which gives a brief introduction to this practice?

Everything Kenneth has written on this site is Gold. As far as other books... I really enjoy thich nhat hanh, The Dharmapada (Gil Fronsdal translation), A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield is solid. After the Extasy the Laundry by the same author is good as well, this book gets more I dunno new agey feeling at times, cause of his writting style, but its not bad. A good discussion by one of the most respected western teachers about how enlightenment won't solve your problems... I would check out Path with Heart First. But honestly too really dig deep in practice I would recommend reading and re-reading MCTB, All of Kenneths work on this site (Hows that book coming along btw buddy)

This is a list of all of Daniel's appearances on Buddhist Geeks. I assume you have listened to Kenneth's appearance on the show? That's what got me here anyway. I have recently re listened to the Hurricane Ranch Discussion. I enjoyed it a lot. Its Daniel, Kenneth, Vince Horn, Hokai (Shingon Practitioner) and Tarin (theprisnorgreco from Dharma Overground) in a informal discussion of this stuff...

Have you heard of Shinzen young? He has got a lot of great talks on youtube. There are many talks on enlightenment. You should check out 'downsides of enlightenment' a great honest look at the much built up enlightenment and what it isn't...

Practice well...

Many thanks ClaytonL for your reply. i have read Jack Kornfield, Thich Nhat Hahn, listened to both Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk on Buddhistgeeks. I have downloaded MCBT and read it once. i will read it again. Daniel Ingram was very prompt in replying to me querry about "Arising and Passing Away" on Dharma overground website. I have not heard Hurricane Ranch discussion nor Shinzen Young on you tube. You have given me enough material to keep me occupied for months to come, apart from practice, which I do realsie is more important than reading books. Many thanks once again. I will be in touch with Kenneth, you and Nick. I am trying to incorporate Mahasi style breathing and noting techniques in my Goenka style vipassana practice at the moment.

Thanks Kenneth. I downloaded Mahasi Sayadaw's book on Vipassana Practical exercises and have added noting to my Goenka style vipassana practice. I meditate twice day for half an hour or so, soon after waking up. and just before going ot bed, and try to note my thoughts, feelings and emotions when not on cushion. I am cotinuing with Anapanasati, as I am more familiar with this practice than the practice of observing the rising and falling of abdomen, in mahasi style. I attend one hour's group sitting of Goenka meditation every Friday evening. Now, my question is, where do I begin and how do I go about. I have understood the 1st of the three speed transmission technique but have not understood what you mean by turning back on attention or awareness. Could you please guide me as Arjuna asked Krishna, in Bhagawad Gita " I am confused,. I do not know how to go about. Could you please show me the path? I surrender to you."

"I have not been able to understand what is meant by Ramam Maharshi's path of self enquiry or pursue the question ,"Who am I ?" I thought advaita and the Buddhist teachings were to parallel paths and were mutually exclusive adn did not meet. I am excited by your assertion that they can and do meet and I am loking forward to the reconciliation of the the two appraoches in your three speed transmission."

For some people, Ramana Maharshi's method of self-enquiry (Atma Vihara) is too difficult. (I found it to be much easier than Nisargadatta's method of observing the feeling of "I", but there are other people for whom it is exactly the other way round.) I have both practiced self-enquiry according to Ramana Maharshi and Vipassana meditation. Personally, I believe they indeed lead you to the same result and insights, but of course this is disputed.

Self-enquiry is actually as easy or as difficult as Vipassana. However, it lacks the precise instructions given in Vipassana. That's the disadvantage. The method is: Whenever any object arises in your consciousness, you simply ask yourself: "Who is observing this object?"
Let's say, you are walking along a street. And this is the object that arises in your consciousness, in other words, you are simply aware of the fact that you're walking. Using Vipassana labelling techniques you'd now label the experience: "Walking, walking" being mindful and attentive to the fact that you're walking. Using self-enquiry on the other hand you simply ask yourself: "Who is walking?" This is all to be done. You just repeat it. But not mechanically, not like a mantra, but with an open, enquiring mind. Don't think anything special will happen the instant you ask yourself: "Who is walking?" Just keep on enquiring.

Many people want to know desperately whether they're doing self-enquiry "the right way" (just like in Vipassana). Fact is, it's nearly impossible to do it the wrong way. Remember, this is not about repeating a mantra, but about enquiring into yourself. As you continue, you will eventually notice subtler and even subtler objects in your mind and body. For instance you might notice how energy is actually moving inside your body as soon as you think "I". Just go on enquiring: "For whom is this energy moving?"

Eventually, you might even fall into samadhi states. As soon as this happens, don't try to prevent or to force it. These states are themselves neither necessary nor helpful nor harmful nor any problem at all. Just go on enquiring: "Who is it who is experiencing this samadhi?" Samadhi, Kundalini-experiences etc. - this will all happen sooner or later, but this is all not important in itself. Just go in enquiring: "To whom is this all happening? Who am I really? Am I this samadhi state of mind? Am I this moving energy? I can observe them, thus they are all objects in my mind, but who is the one who observes them?"

You might sooner or later experience that your consciousness freed of any content is arising and passing away by itself. This is a crucial point - and here is where Vipassana and self-enquiry depart. Not concerning the insight you might get here, but from the theory behind.

When doing Vipassana, you simply very mindfully observe the arising and passing away of consciousness (together with each object observed). Sooner or later you understand: "Even consciousness is empty of self-existence. It is impermanent. It comes and goes by itself. Thus, there is no self really in consciousness neither." This leads to a deepening of Buddhist Anatta-teaching - there is no "self" in ANY kind of experience, even not in consciousness.

When doing self-enquiry, you also observe your consciousness arising and passing away (but probably you're not very concerned with the objects that it is attached to anyway. But if you are - fine. No problem at all.).

Contrary to the Buddhist Anatta-teaching, you now ask yourself: "How is it possible that 'something' or 'someone' is there to notice the arising and passing of even consciousness? How can this be? There must be 'something' or 'someone' even behind consciousness, which is able to notice the arising and passing of consciousness. But whatever it is, it seems to be just beyond everything! 'I' am not even consciousness itself, but I am even behind arising and passing consciousness. This unknown 'thing' I will call 'Self'."
You just notice that somehow miraculously there is this ability to even notice the absence of consciousness (as like in deep sleep). How can the absence of consciousness be noticed if there is no consciousness to notice it? There thus must be some kind of 'substratum' and this is actually what Ramana Maharshi calls the 'Self'.

Many people get slightly confused by the term "Self" here. It is not an entity. It is not an object. It is different even from consciousness. It is completely transcendent. There is no word to describe it accurately. For this reason it is said to be "neti-neti" - not this, nor that.

I personally claim this to be the exact same "stuff" like Nisargadattas term awareness (which he uses contrary to consciousness) or Zen's "empty awareness". It is very interesting to notice that in the Mahayana tradition there is a concept of Alaya-consciousness ("storey house consciousness") from where mind is said to arise and pass into again (sometimes called "True Self" even by Buddhists).

Excellent posts fckw.

I liked holding onto the I am. I think it's very similar to vipassana in a sense because you notice when you've let go and return to it, but you also let your attention be aware of the 5 senses and thinking (just if you lose the I am you return to it).

Just found this site. It contains very good instructions on how to practice Atma Vichara: www.yogaliving.co.uk/teachings/the-practice

If you like you can also check out this talk:

conscious.tv/nonduality.html?bcpid=46208...01&bctid=23850802001