enlightenment revisited

PART 2

When I seriously started to look at my life and ME in it, it was due some painful relationships where I found 12 step fellowship for "Adult Children of Alcoholics". With the discussions and sharing I understood how the dysfunctionality of my family had affected to my personality. My personality started to rapidly change towards what felt natural for me - my true potentiality was being released and not chained with my feelings of low self-worth, guilt and shame I developed in the family. That was very fast and exiting develo0pment. The peak of it happened however about a year later when I was walking late at night by myself on a riverbank, watching the stars and the still night of the city. Something just shifted in my mind. I immediately understood that something had changed and I felt enormous gratitude, tears falling from my eyes. Somehow I also understood that it was spiritual change and this was probably something that some spiritual teachers always refer to. Next day I started to find books and other stuff that talk about these kinds of things - and I did understand everything they were saying, I had personal experience of that stuff. My sponsor in the groups somehow saw this change in me and asked me "Have had spiritual awakening as a results of these steps?" I begun to wonder that perhaps it was the steps that made this change..

I found many spiritual practices that were designed to cause these kinds of changes to a person. I was especially fascinated about the buddhism, and especially the Zen buddhism as it seemed to point directly to that kind of experience. I still continued to work with the 12 step program and tried to help other people to have the same experience I had. Some of them did have some shifts, but not so big I hoped they would have had.

PART 3

I found myself a teacher from the zen tradition and in my first sesshin I told about this experience of mine I had had 2 years before. She told me to let go of that experience - because I just had to. I almost cried. And perhaps not almost. I had build some much on that experience. To let go of it and descend to the level of ordinary human beings felt too hard thing to do. But I did. And by doing this I begun to understand that it wasn't really the steps, and it wasn't the society that caused that experience. Actually I started to see how much of acult the whole society actually was. People were supporting each others fantasies of being awake whereas all the non-groupers were at sleep etc. The dogma was so obvious and the cuilt like behaviour was so clear that I had to leave that scene.

I continued the ze practice. What I didn't understand was, however, that I still had kept the idea of "enlightenment" vs. "ordinary". Now I just projected it on the Zen tradition. It was just last summer when I suddenly let go of that projection and started to see that all the "enlightened beings" in all the spiritual traditions seemed to act JUST LIKE the rest of the crowd. No difference whatsoever. I understood I had fooled myself.

This is why I'm playing this sceptics role. I'm in a process of understanding what is real and what is just fantasy. I know from my personal experience that there are real experiences, but on the other hand it seems to me that there are also lots of marketing around these experiences that is just that. Advertisement to sell a concept.

I thank you to participate this discussion, it has already been helpful to me and I hope my role is helpful to others too.

Thank you Kundun for sharing so much about your life and experiences.

I don't know your Zen teacher. What I know however is that after kensho or satori, one is often asked to put it into proper perspective. One of the reasons for doing so is to avoid making 'awakening' (or brief insight into our original nature) into an object or into a thing that we possess. And this is precisely what you are trying to avoid '“ so this is good.

On the other side, a wise teacher will also help us understand what happened and what it says about our original nature. This is very important because true Zen practice is cultivation based on sudden awakening. Practice-realization does not end there; it starts from there '“ this is also good news.

As I understand it, one of the goals of Zen practice is to reach a point where there is no more difference between enlightenment and non enlightenment.

'As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.' ('¦) 'Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.' (Eihei Dogen, Genjokoan)

"PART 3

I found myself a teacher from the zen tradition and in my first sesshin I told about this experience of mine I had had 2 years before. She told me to let go of that experience - because I just had to. I almost cried. And perhaps not almost. I had build some much on that experience. To let go of it and descend to the level of ordinary human beings felt too hard thing to do. But I did. And by doing this I begun to understand that it wasn't really the steps, and it wasn't the society that caused that experience. Actually I started to see how much of acult the whole society actually was. People were supporting each others fantasies of being awake whereas all the non-groupers were at sleep etc. The dogma was so obvious and the cuilt like behaviour was so clear that I had to leave that scene.

I continued the ze practice. What I didn't understand was, however, that I still had kept the idea of "enlightenment" vs. "ordinary". Now I just projected it on the Zen tradition. It was just last summer when I suddenly let go of that projection and started to see that all the "enlightened beings" in all the spiritual traditions seemed to act JUST LIKE the rest of the crowd. No difference whatsoever. I understood I had fooled myself.

This is why I'm playing this sceptics role. I'm in a process of understanding what is real and what is just fantasy. I know from my personal experience that there are real experiences, but on the other hand it seems to me that there are also lots of marketing around these experiences that is just that. Advertisement to sell a concept.

"

Great sincerity, Kundun.

And great doubt. [i.e. "At the bottom of great doubt lies great awakening. If you doubt fully, you will awaken fully". -Hakuin]

Seems like you really commit to whatever you do. Inspiring.

Kundun, thanks for sharing all that. Much appreciated.

Kate! You speak my language! Welcome! (Ok, now I've run out of exclamation points.)

After I "left" this place last night I went and sat with all this craziness. It was, for a while, like a big hot piece of metal churning around inside. Somehow I got to the point of asking, "What is feeing this?" and of course there was no one there, which made me start to laugh, then sort of cry, then realize how completely dysfunctional that little self is as it rolls around inside this huge universe, wanting everything and giving nothing.

The other realization I have now is an appreciation for just how damned powerful this practice process is. Once it latches onto you (and that's what it does, make no mistake) you are not in control. Oh, you can act your typical part all day, which I managed somehow to do yesterday, but that's just a coverup. Underneath my little act the universe was being ripped apart and reconstructed.

Oh, yeah, I think I learned a lot yesterday.

"
Somehow I got to the point of asking, "What is feeing this?" and of course there was no one there, which made me start to laugh, then sort of cry, then realize how completely dysfunctional that little self is as it rolls around inside this huge universe, wanting everything and giving nothing.

"

Nice. And it IS pretty funny, isn't it?

I've had a few years to be researching and studying and mulling over what I began by calling 'post-enlightenment practice'. I've done it in my own weird way, the way I've done everything else-- a lot of the time, the process looks random and unguided even to me-- but there also seem to be confirmations of one sort or another, from time to time.

Today, what popped into my head may be the answer to my having noticed a fair few people have 'enlightenment experiences' seem to go skidding off the rails thereafter in one way or another. Some seemed to become gullible, subject to anyone authoritative who would 'validate' their 'achievement.' Some became rather grandiose and inflated, and started to hire themselves out to 'serve' others. Some became cynical when the texture of their experience changed and they thought they'd 'lost' what they'd 'gained.' Some became so thin-skinned that they alienated their friends...

-- what came to me today is what these modes of 'decline and fall' from the lofty heights of Clarity have in common: they represent having heeded the seductive voice that suggests: Congratulations! You made it! Here YOU are, at the top of the mountain, with the pearl of great price-- that YOU deserve; that YOU earned with YOUR hard work.

It's all very well to rattle off the standard 'spiritual' line about the disappearance or the nonexistence of the 'self', but the first test comes when the practitioner EXPERIENCES what feels like the dissolution of the self. If what I do is generate some elaborate story of MY amazing experience and realization-- that should raise some questions...

(continued-- I'm on a roll, or a rant)
There are two things I read about 'what the Buddha said' that made me start considering myself a Buddhist: first, when he awakened, he DIDN'T say, 'I am That'-- a statement of attainment in those days. He said, 'Today, I AND ALL BEINGS are enlightened.' (apologies for undoubtedly bad-memory paraphrase to any more scholarly types) That seemed in alignment with my own sense of things, as the 'I am That' stuff did not. It didn't seem that I was illuminated in contrast to everything else: it was clear that universal luminosity is the case. There are times when I stop ignoring this. (Sometimes a narrower focus is perfectly functional: when I'm driving, for instance, being lost in wonder is not the best mode.) Part-- maybe a large part-- of the time, I'm focussing narrowly in service to old habits perseverating. If I notice this, I can stop.

The second reason was his making it absolutely clear that no one should take his or anyone else's word for it; that my practice is MY practice. What I understand as a result, I will understand unshakeably. I won't be needing anyone to stand by my elbow and tell me I'm right; and if what presents itself is someone standing at my elbow telling me I'm wrong-- I'm not disturbed.
Hmm-- one last thing is the third of two reasons I'm a buddhist: it's about lifelong practice. First I practice to 'become' enlightened; at some point, the practice is the practice of BEING enlightened: seeing the enlightened choice and making it, moment after moment. Like practicing to become a doctor or musician, and then practicing the art of medicine or music.

Well, "thus have I heard."

Cheers. I hope this doesn't sound too exhortatory-- I really don't mean it that way. It's just I'm enthusiastic about this stuff. And opinionated, I guess.

Nice post Roomy. What I observed was that you too have seen many people to gain such experiences. The texts and teaching emphasize how rare thing it is - the zen teachers f.ex. might found only one person if any, to continue their lineages. But what I have observed is that it isn't really so rare thing. As I quickly count I personally know at least 10 persons that have had experiences like that (2 without any spiritual context, 4 in the context of 12 steps, 4 in the zen context). And those are only the persons that have talked about it with me. Probably there are more but just haven't talked about it with me. And then of course there are dozens of people I really don't know personally but who I have met or seen quickly f2f or met in the internet forums like this (and other kinds of forums, like theosophists etc).

So at least for me, this is quite common thing that happens to lots of people. But the difference is that not all of them can keep their legs on the ground and cultivate it. Many of those people will eventually lost the once so meaningful experience they had, simply because they didn't understand to work on it - or then they make it such a big deal that they will eventually get lost in the fantasies of being enlightened. Of course one can then say that it wasn't a real experience or that it wasn't deep enought etc. But for me this sounds lot like the people who say that "12 step program works, if somebody relapses it's just that s/he didn't REALLY work the steps". (Especially if it was known that the person had done step work with the sponsor and perhaps even sponsored some other people.)

I think that this might be one of the selling arguments that really don't hold water when closely observed. Essays and books by Brian Victoria, Stuart Lachs, Robert Sharf have clearly showed that authentic teachers very often act as stupidly and unenlightened as the rest of us.

I'm liking the word "enlightenment" less and less. It carries unnecessary baggage and it infers a weird kind of "I am" almost automatically. I'm liking the words "awakening" and "realization" more and more.

As for the comments about "YOU" and exactly who or what gets awakened: it 's exceedingly easy to feel that way. It's almost automatic, in fact. And of course it is - we spend our whole lives wrapping our me sense around our experiences, and vice versa. But like everything else, there's no one really there to be excited, neurotic, elated or otherwise. It's all happening to what I now think of as "the universe as observed through one particular being." This is where I think sangha becomes important. The people around who, who know you, who you know, who can call bullsh*t on you, will really help temper the tendency for glimpses of awakening to get infused with ego.

Hello, Everyone

My 2 cents about enlightenment / morality:

When I was about 4 or 5 years old, I made up a little song and sang it around the house. It went like this:

"I am the person from the joy, joy, joy. And I go to school, and I go to school."

So, that's my take on the matter, in a nutshell. Elaboration and clarification available upon request.

Kind regards,
Ryan

consider yourself served - elaboration please!

"consider yourself served - elaboration please! "

Ok, so let's parse this verse carefully. Two lines, two sentiments connected by the conjunction "and".

"I am the person from the joy, joy, joy."

So, what is it that is typing this post? Is it a person? From a certain perspective, it is a conglomoration, to put a word to the 5 skandhas (or nama-rupa, another conglomoration). Perhaps the most likely case in which a conglomoration will conceive a person out of writing this post is when there is enJOYment of writing. "I" was elated that you requested elaboration. Why? Because there are few things "I" am more likely to enJOY than elaboration. "I" am very, very good at elaboration. So, to say it plainly, you could consider "I" to be the sense of personhood conceived (dependent origination) from the joy, joy, joy. (Repeated three times, for emphasis)

AND....

I go to school.

AND (in case it was lost the first time in the midst of all the joy) I go to school.

I go to school??!!

Wait, what?! What about the joy?! Can't "I" just have the joy?

Well, sure, if you want the joy, you can have it.....

AND you have to go to school.

"Going to school" = birth, practice, realization

is the natural consequence of a "person" from the joy, joy, joy.

No need to be reborn. Not need to go to school.

No need to be good. No need to be moral.

Unless YOU want JOY.

Well, what if enightenment is joy? What if I want enlightenment, the highest happiness?

Well, then, yeah, then you REALLY have to go to school.

Want the big house, pay the big bucks.

No need for house, no need for bucks.

-Ryan

That's amazing stuff coming from the mind of a five-year-old!

Hi Roomy and Kundun

It's not clear to me if the awakening experiences you're talking about is rigpa (third gear) or developmental (first gear).

My understanding is that you can come in and out of rigpa. On the other hand, once you finish the fourth path there is a sense of doneness.

Which brings me to the next few questions to the enlightened folks (pun not intended):

Is this doneness the magical switch?
Did that sense of doneness happen momentarily or did it dawn on you gradually?
Can you describe that sense of doneness in phenomenological non abstract terms?

Thanks,

Amr

"Is this doneness the magical switch?"

I think you might need to rephrase this question. What do you mean by "magical switch"? A switch to/for what?

"I think you might need to rephrase this question. What do you mean by "magical switch"? A switch to/for what?"


Kenneth, in an earlier post, said there is no such thing as a "magical switch" for morality. I assumed that there is one for spiritual enlightenment.

I'm talking here about the sign that told you that you're enlightened.

"
That's amazing stuff coming from the mind of a five-year-old!

"

Haha. : )

Yes, well consider two points:

1) I did not consciously understand and thus could never have expressed the implications of the song I sang at that age.

2) Where was that body/mind known before "Ryan Pirtle-McVeigh" was born?

I'm not 25. I wasn't 5 then.

Ryan, I'd say you had it right when you were five and you were simply being the joy, joy, joy AND going to school. There were no niggling philosophical lines to be drawn between 'I' and 'joy' and 'school'-- joy was the indivisible event that included you and your whole world, home, school, sunlight, rain puddles, the all of it.

Unless you were the rare ironic little bugger who would hate going to school and sing a song about joy that posed the going to school as a contrast.

One of the first puzzlements for me is how tangled up in the limitations of the language we 'spiritual' types become. Activists chant about 'We're here, etc.-- get used to it!' And we go to all kinds of lengths-- because we have noticed that everything we'd been assuming about our existence could go POOF! and disintegrate-- to deny that we exist at all. I've come to think of this as 'the Advaitin error, because I've heard more of it from the Papaji line. My understanding, so far, is that this is a misguided (and doomed) attempt to get to get to the Indivisible by whacking one of the terms of the 'duality' we believe we're experiencing. It's the belief about 'I' that's misleading, not its legitimate use as a convention of language.

As to the idea that there is 'no need to be moral', it seems more likely true that what makes 'a Buddha' is that there is no need to be IMMORAL (that is, to gratuitously harm self or others-- merely unconventional, 'improper' acts are another case.)

I guess I should out myself as having been brought up a Christian Scientist, and that that seems to have formed the core issues that I've been grappling with all my life. These days, I've been saying that Christian Science is 'the Mind-Only School of Christianity.'

Gosh, I sure wish folks here would fill out at least a minimum profile when they join. It would be cool, really cool. At least then we'd know just that little snippet about you that you want us to know. Other systems I belong to force you to do that, some even to use your real name so you can't hide behind anonymity and cause problems. I don't advocate that here.... but even a tiny bit of information would be nice.

Just sayin'

Hmm-- to make sure I'm understanding the import of this post: participants preferably would present some kind of resume, and this would improve readers' understanding of what they have to say?

Having just finished a 3-week stint at work reading 30-40 resumes for the one position we need to fill-- I have my doubts as to the effectiveness of such a requirement. I'm not saying I think it's a bad idea, but maybe it would be useful to know what 'problem' it is that requires solving-- and see what the best way to solve it might be.
(If the problem is that my Mom's being a Christian Scientist means that I can't have anything worthwhile to say... I'll pack up my opinions and find another place to play-- now how do you find those goddawful little smiley icons that say 'this is a joke!' [and is there an ambiguous one that qualifies '-- sort of.'?])

"
Did that sense of doneness happen momentarily or did it dawn on you gradually?
Can you describe that sense of doneness in phenomenological non abstract terms?

Thanks,

Amr

"

Hi Amr,
You asked for a self-report about "that sense of doneness." In my case, I knew something profoundly important had occurred. It was most emphatically NOT an experience; I'd had tons of experiences for many years. This was a transformation. I tested it over the course of a couple of weeks to see if it changed and to make sure I wasn't fooling myself.

It didn't and I wasn't.

But I wasn't sure **exactly** what level of Awakening had taken place. I knew it was profound. It seemed to be permanent (at least, it had not shown any indication of change during the period under discussion, and it has never since). And it seemed to go right to the ground of Being, as it were. In fact, I characterized it when talking to others as "the feeling of Being."

And there was still lots to do because I was alive, I had a job, a family, and lots of responsibilities. None of that stuff came to an end. So I just went on doing whatever needed to be done while continuing to know and feel that none of it was the Ultimate. I'd already taken care of that, in a sense.

But it wasn't until I spoke to Kenneth that the explicit question of "being done" was raised. Yes, I did feel "done." I'm no Buddha. And I have all those other life-level responsibilities, plans, etc. Yet, from the first moments after Awakening, I felt (and wrote in my journal) that "If I never accomplish anything else, THIS is enough."

That's being done.

Regards,
Gozen

"...participants preferably would present some kind of resume, and this would improve readers' understanding of what they have to say?"

No, roomy. Not a resume. I couln't care less about your professional experience, your Mom being a Christian Scientist, or anything like that. It's not a big deal at all. Ignore me if it bothered you. I'm just a fan of having more a little context. It won't affect what I think of what you say at all.

"Can you describe that sense of doneness?"

Ever hear that one about little Davy playing guitar in the desert, plunking just one string "twang, twang, twang..."
Someone happens by and says "Hey little Davy, why are you just playing that one string? Why aren't you moving up and down the neck like them other cats?"
Little Davy says "Man... Them other cats is searchin'... I done FOUND it!"

D