Celibacy

Wondering if any of you have experience with celibacy--that is, completely foregoing orgasm by any means--and would be willing to talk about how it has affected your practice, if at all.

Never. Nor fasting or any other kind of ascetic practice.

But as a woman, perhaps I should stay out of the conversation, as I think men have a very different relationship to their sex drives than women.

However, you may find this interesting (written by a colleague):

http://oeith.co.uk/2012/01/17/deconstructing-the-male-orgasm

I've actually read that article. Thanks for the link though. You mentioned Duncan one time, I stumbled across his blog, and now read it pretty frequently.

My teacher had told me to control my "emissions" and gave me some tips on how to do so. He said to concentrate on the back of my head at its base. This does work (when I do it!) I had a lot of trouble following this recommendation, until recently. My roommate is a born-again Christian and feels it's a sin to masturbate and so he practices celibacy too. It's funny--we're looking for the same outcome but for very different reasons. Anyway, he told me he prays for God's assistance when he gets the urge and I've found this helps me too. I'll try it for six months and see if I notice anything different.

Ah, I recall now I've seen you comment there.

Well, why not? Experimenting is always good. As long as you aren't doing it for some kind of self-loathing or self-punishment (and assuming it isn't impacting a partner or spouse's needs), but just want to explore how it affects practice, I don't see any harm in it.

Chris, my primitive understanding of the 'Middle Way' is that over-investing oneself in either 'normal' unreflective, habitual life, or obsessive manipulation of its components-- whether meditation or ascetic practices-- are the extremes to be avoided. The middle way is loose, flexible, engaged, interested, and responsive: as opposed to grimly determined, rigid, desperate, dogmatic, and insistent on ONE way. What MUST be done; what MUST result. The middle way takes others-- not just the practitioner-- into account. It is a principle of how to practice, not a roster of rules.

Seems to me the ascetic practices are possibly-- briefly-- useful to detach from habits, and open up perceptions a bit. An end run around 'doing what you always do and getting what you always get.' If they are made into the fixed habit of denial, they become problematic. And tend to add a really irritating layer of righteousness to the basic problem of being habit-bound. Which is what I understand 'samsara' to mean: blind performance of the habitual life. Some habits are conducive to leading longer, less troubled lives, so we call those 'good.' But a person asleep in a good dream is no less asleep than the one in a bad dream. From the point of view of 'being awake.'

Or so it seems to me.

I don't get it. What is it do you think six months of no orgasms is going to do for your practice? Is this more of the energy work/kundalini thing?

My orientation is that there is no special thing one can do to awaken. Instead, one should watch what one is actually doing with as much intimacy as possible and that brings the insight one needs moment to moment to decide how to behave.

Who is this teacher who tells you to withhold your "emissions" and what was the purpose of such advice?

And, how did you and your roommate end up discussing each other's opinions and habits in regardsto masturbation and orgasms?

'Celibacy' can be a useful interruption to our heedless sexual habits, a chance to see the whole energy dynamic involved in the physical and social expression of our sexuality. As a permanent way of life-- unlikely to be useful, suitable, or even possible. As a goal, it's probably akin to the monk's diet: likely to create as many problems as it avoids.

I don't get it. What is it do you think six months of no orgasms is going to do for your practice? Is this more of the energy work/kundalini thing?

My orientation is that there is no special thing one can do to awaken. Instead, one should watch what one is actually doing with as much intimacy as possible and that brings the insight one needs moment to moment to decide how to behave.

Who is this teacher who tells you to withhold your "emissions" and what was the purpose of such advice?

And, how did you and your roommate end up discussing each other's opinions and habits in regardsto masturbation and orgasms?

-michaelmonson

You once asked us to remind you if you come across as antagonistic in your posts, because you don't intend it. That one sounded antagonistic. Love, Ona

Ok, sorry.
Those were my questions.
I guess what I intended as direct comes off as judgemental? If so, I sure regret that. The weird thing is that I was trying to convey concern for sunyata's boundaries and probably ended up violating his.

Mike, I was away a bit exploring my local Costco's offerings, so am returning to this conversation now. I didn't feel violated by your questions or anything, but maybe someone else may have felt them to be a bit antagonistic or overly judgmental.

Retaining sexual energy as a means to facilitate spiritual growth is recommended is Daoism, (Japanese) Esoteric Buddhism, and yoga. I don't know from personal experience if it does indeed do this. My teacher recommended I think it due to his reading of Daoist works (see the Secret of the Golden Flower) and Kukai (founder of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism). Daoists explain the cultivation process as a transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy. Kukai once said that sexual desire was the most difficult for him to finally wrangle in and control. Also, William Bodri (a Kate recommendation) firmly holds that retaining sexual energy is imperative to spiritual growth. I don't know if he has personal experience with that or if he is parroting his teacher(s). Essentially, he says you won't progress as fast if you indulge too much. And that could be it. Maybe strict celibacy isn't required, but moderation is. As goes the Middle Way.

Nagatomo (my teacher) may also have had some personal experience with this as well, I don't know. I asked him once how long I would be "put back" in my meditation if I ejaculated and he said "maybe a month." I really don't know if that has an validity or not.

Motoyama also says that celibacy assists with the awakening of the sacral chakra, the second chakra, which is associated with the sexual organs and the unconscious. He also says that awakening the third-eye (brow chakra) and sacral chakra together is important, as the sacral chakra supplies the energy for the brow chakra. So I figured, since I am focusing on the brow chakra, to be efficient maybe I'll reign in my sexual activities and see if what Motoyama says is applicable.

I have noticed that it has become easier over time. Sexual urges are less frequent and my mind doesn't go there as often.

Since my roommate is a conservative born-again Christian, we have little in common. So we bond over our celibacy.

Thanks, sunyata.
Reflecting more on this I can see that for some reason I don't yet understand I find it hard to make a connection between something happening in chakras and some kind of awakening process. Maybe it seems too complicated? I may be more comfortable with the almost mysterious process of insight that can spring from the empty space created by a continuity of awareness
I'm not sure that sentence will make sense.
Anyway I appreciate you engaging with me despite my earlier post. I had a feeling you'd be ok with it but I understand why others were a little critical

As others have said on here, similar energetic phenomena seem to pop up regardless of the technique utilized. They can be engaged or not. All depends on the natural idiosyncrasies of the practitioner I think.

I am here for conversation and am willing to meet people wherever they are. Often helps me learn about myself, so maybe it could be considered self-serving.

All the Asian systems of medicine-- which share the same view as yoga and other spiritual practices-- spring from a very different view of how our bodies are constituted, what a 'human being' is, and what the highest purpose of our lives are. 'Energy' is a crude approximation-- by way of translating something we don't really conceive of as a reality-- of a subtler dimension that includes the physical body, but is not generated by it and is not contained in it. It's not something available from Starbucks or cocaine; it is more like inspiration than like being jacked up. Easy to miss, roaring down the freeway of our customary lives.

So re-purposing the 'energy' usually expended in sexuality can be experienced as everything taking on somewhat intensified, more alluring versions of the qualities already present, but not always so deeply felt. A bit like the separations that sometimes occur between lovers, when everything seems to have to do with the absent person, somehow. In ways that get overshadowed by merely being in the same room, which one can take for granted.

Or like the times when we were fasting, in my former yoga community, and we discovered the intoxication of making a 'meal' out of the smells of things in the spice cabinet-- and then even of stuff in the refrigerator, like peanut butter and jelly. [And I've never particularly liked PB&J!] It was a gourmet experience.

That's helpful and interesting, Kate.

Playing with celibacy is like playing with fire, not in the "it's so dangerous, you will kill yourself" sense, but more in the "this is fun and interesting, but I might burn myself" sense.

Probably the most grounded advice I ever heard was from my old martial arts teacher (tai chi and other internal styles). Before I say his advice, it's important to get the context... which was an expectation that a lot of your energy during the day would go into practice. Walking down the street, opening doors, being aware, plus hours of physicial training... but all of the physical training was high-repetition, low effort type moves with a huge emphasis on softness and gentleness. With all of that as a given, he said "too much and you are too tired, too little and you can't relax."

My own opinion is that celibacy for young men (I'm only going to talk about my understanding of male sexuality!) is fine for a short while, but usually not appropriate. Young men tend to be proud and arrogant and with excess energy... frankly, busting a nut every so often tends to make them into nicer humans.

This isn't as true for young men with lower sex drives or old men with lower sex drives. When the drive is more subtle, it is possible to re-direct the energy into other activities, to use that general "motivated feeling" as a touchstone for creativity. When you're a young man, that "motivated feeling" has no subtlty and keeping it in mind just turns you way too horny.

I've found it interesting that on retreat it's been pretty easy to remain celibate. The increased awareness/tranquility never allows the build up of that energy into full on horny-ness.

I've also found that there seems to be a connection with sexual arousal and the domain of the 2nd and 3rd jhanas. I'm finding it easier to take the sex drive and look at it closely and have that become more of a bliss feeling. Doing this can lead to jhana burn-out though.

Oh, other observation: I swear that on retreat I had an experience that was like a spiritual version of freud's oedipal complex. I would look at female teachers and see "loving" auras around them and I would look at male teachers and see them as wanting to kill me. (Yes, I noted it as it arose, so I didn't get sucked into that story line!) I do think there is something very pervasive about so-called sexual energy in one's psyche and I can see how freud could think libidial energy was at the root of most cognition.

And one last thing: the whole thing with celebacy is that it can be a way to avoid all the entanglements of sexual energy. Basically denying that the energy has any control over oneself. This can be very bad. It's sad but true, in the rural high-school where she grew up, alot of the teenagers that said they were celebate until marrage... had out of wedlock babies. You can't just ignore stuff and pretend that's the same thing as dealing with it.

Okay, that was a fun post to type on a Sunday morning

I think the approach needs to be extremely customized for each person. Advice that makes sense for a grown man (I'm only going to speak to my male understanding of this subject!) may not make sense for a young man or a different grown man.

(Magician Phil Hine wrote a rather humorous comment on the overuse, abuse, and silliness that comes along with the word "energy" among spiritual types: http://enfolding.org/jottings-talking-energies/ )

Shagrol - really wise comments. I love when there can be some really common sense and mature discussion of topics like this. Well, any topic.

@all it does occur to me there is once context in which I have or do sometimes practice celibacy, and that is in ritual preparation. Some rituals (particularly those in the African Diaspora, but also some western evocation work) begin with purification work (such as ritual baths). From the time I take the bath until the ritual is complete, I stay in "ritual time" and don't engage with much mundane life stuff.

In Santeria this kind of preparatory cleansing might take place a few days before a big ritual, or the night before, for example. In that case one generally doesn't drink, go out, do noisy/rowdy things or have intimate contact (even non-sexual) with other people (except young children). The point is one is preparing for ritual work, and wants to keep the mental focus on the work ahead, as well as maintain the cool clarity and purity the bath brings. In a few kinds of rituals there are periods of quiet "incubation" after the ritual where one also keeps in isolation, to allow the ritual work to unfold without being disturbed. In general this can involve wearing white clothing, maintaining separation from other people, not doing distracting things like drinking, parties, going out; and sleeping in front of the shrine, alone with the spirits. Depending on the situation this might be done for a few hours, days or weeks.

On that note, I've been working experimentally and in an exploratory way with the five precepts for several months.

One of them pertains to sex and is generally translated "abstain from sexual misconduct", which is quite wide open.

So I've been finding that I can relate to these precepts on a very energetic level (as you described 'energy' above, Chris, so well ) moreso than on a behavioral level, so that's where I'm working with them (I don't feel inclined to murder people very often, or commit adultery, or so on, so...).

Anyhow, looking into this sex precept on this energetic-feeling-vitality--sensation--attention--intention level has brought some interesting stuff up, as well as crystallizing some changes that have come about through many different pathways over the past few years-- meditation practice, hormonal mellowing with age, and deep psychological work. It's hard to put in words, but it's something like, seeing how exploiting the vital energy which animates experience is inherently unethical (un-natural, disordered, out of tune).

The exploiting is like squandering vitality by transforming it into cheap pleasure in the short run which depletes vitality throughout the body mind. But for me anyway, this has nothing to do with outward acts. It's more like the nature of vitality is to rest within itself, to not violate itself, to be complete in itself with a kind of tangible intactness that translates into a feeling of contentment and non-grasping, as well as an easy, flowing, non-judgmental intuitive appraisal of things in terms of their wholesomeness-- food, sexual activity, environments, activities, things to say and ways to say them. The more intact this vitality is, the easier and simpler it is to choose the wholesome, which becomes a self-reinforcing spiral of self respect and respect for my relations.

I think celibacy intelligently chosen with an experimental attitude to explore the flow of feeling-attention-intention that constitutes this overall vitality, and to clarify the nature of this powerful energy in terms of the broader question of interpersonal relationship, could be incredibly instructive for the right person at the right time.

But along with Shargrol, I think young men should be very very careful not to slip into an attitude of "controlling" and suppressing this energy, splitting their "spiritual" side from their emotional/sexual/relational/instinctual side (dominating belly with head is also an unethical relationship to one's vitality, just not exploitative, rather-- suppressive).

Any behavioral change might best be engaged with an experimental attitude that aims to allow natural vitality and clarity to blend and balance each other--- without each other they become, respectively too wild and selfish or, too dry and self-righteous, in my experience and I definitely have plenty of experience with both of these extremes. Blended, clarity is vivified by passionate caring, vitality takes on a very self-contained yet dynamically relational quality. So far it seems to have been a fruitful inquiry