things happening by themselves

The following ponders arise from several conversations in recent days, as well as some further reading in Christian mysticism I've been doing.

In the old texts on Christian mysticism there is a division between the kind of meditative practice where you sit and apply a technique intentionally (set your mind like this, don't get distracted by thoughts and emotions, inclined your attention to God just as he is, repeat a text, lingering slowly on each word, for example) and what they call "infused contemplation" which is where the meditation eventually shifts and becomes something you are not doing by your own will, but rather the meditation arises by the grace of God. The prayers "pray themselves" and the meditation seems to carry one along in its own way, without the person being in control of the process. This may happen briefly in flashes during a particular session, or eventually become a more overall predominant experience day to day.

To leave aside their particular vocabulary, I thought this paralleled very much experiences I and various friends have had where after some months of intensive practice in a specific method, it suddenly seemed as if the meditation were "meditating itself". That is, one would sit, intending to meditate a certain way, but then find oneself just be carried along, perhaps in a different direction than one planned. Or one might wake up in the middle of the night to discover oneself meditating.

I specifically recall some instances where I was doing intensive noting practice during the day and waking up at 3am to discover I was meditating, noting rapidly. I would lay there and watch for a while, then fall back asleep. It was weird.

More recently I had a strong experience of this while trying out a relatively unfamiliar prayer practice, where one starts by repeating the Lord's Prayer at normal speed, and then allows oneself to pause for longer and longer between words and phrases, or stop on a particular word and just repeat that word. I intended to just keep repeating it at normal speed for a while, but it began "praying itself" and pausing on different words, or just dropping into silence for long periods.

Does this kind of experience ring true for anyone else? Thoughts on its significance?

This resonates with me as well, Ona. Even recently, I'm becoming more aware of the way this practice seems to have a pull of its own. Perhaps this is what it means to have "entered the stream" in some sense. As much as I think I know where I would like my practice to go, and what type of result I would like to see, in a very strange, profound, and sometimes unsettling way, it isn't up to me. In some sense we are really just along for the ride. It seems to go more smoothly, however, when we do our best to skillfully participate in the process.

I think that with almost anything involving the brain and human activity, momentum/continuity is a powerful force that opens one up to all kinds of states and experiences, seemingly unbidden.

This isn't true just in spiritual practices but in sports, yoga, dance, academic pursuits, work, etc.

I find Christian-oriented meditation or contemplative prayer very powerful and appealing. The Christian church I was involved with for many years here in Modesto used to teach it and have weekly meditation sessions (using the Thomas Keating method) and I was (of course) an enthusiastic participant.

What I like about it is that f(or me at least) the method takes all the pressure off of the meditator. One is not responsible for how the meditation goes or what results are acheived -- if any -- one is just supposed to be open to God's grace and let her decide what will happen or be revealed. This is very freeing and healing I think. The way many people like me can practice buddhist or other methods is often ironically accompanied by a self centered desire for specific results that can just cause stress and suffering more than anything else.

"One is not responsible for how the meditation goes or what results are acheived -- if any -- one is just supposed to be open to God's grace and let her decide what will happen or be revealed. This is very freeing and healing I think. The way many people like me can practice buddhist or other methods is often ironically accompanied by a self centered desire for specific results that can just cause stress and suffering more than anything else."

Mike (I love how you snuck that "her" in there! ) - This is exactly what I'm constantly fascinated with these days. You hit the nail on the head with that response, I think.

It is exactly what I think is a huge sinkhole for a lot of meditators - in various traditions - who get so stuck in trying to "make stuff happen." It's not just that this causes frustration or stress or suffering. It actually blocks "progress." It's like building a tower to get a better view, and then deciding the only thing that's important is building the tower, and spending the rest of your life laying bricks and building it higher and higher without ever stopping to look at the view!!

I absolutely think structured techniques are super useful for certain people at certain points in practice. But to cling to a practice technique with a death grip is so counterproductive.

Any God worth meditating with has to be a woman.

"Things happen by themselves" -- one important point in this is that each of us has such a unique set of DNA, history, "karma," patterns, tendancies, expectations, mental stuff and on and on that the universe of what can or won't happen in a spiritual practice is going to be very specific to that person and that universe is something that that person or anyone else could never control or predict.

Right?

Plus, the things that are going to happen to each person once they start a practice are going to vary widel from person to person?

Am I making sense? You could either say "things happen by themselves" or "things happen that are inevitable and specific to you that there is no way you could predict or control" and one could be saying the same thing.

Just add momentum.

Any God worth meditating with has to be a woman. [image]"Things happen by themselves" -- one important point in this is that each of us has such a unique set of DNA, history, "karma," patterns, tendancies, expectations, mental stuff and on and on that the universe of what can or won't happen in a spiritual practice is going to be very specific to that person and that universe is something that that person or anyone else could never control or predict. Right? Plus, the things that are going to happen to each person once they start a practice are going to vary widel from person to person?Am I making sense? You could either say "things happen by themselves" or "things happen that are inevitable and specific to you that there is no way you could predict or control" and one could be saying the same thing. Just add momentum.

-michaelmonson

For sure each person's specific experiences are going to be different, though it seems there are commonalities, too.

What I'm getting at with the "things happen by themselves" is not so much that you can't predict what can or should happen from one moment to the next in your practice (although that is also true, and part of the reason that letting go is useful), but that it seems to be a common experience to enter into a "space/place" where practice seems to take on a life of its own, carrying one along like a passenger. It's not in contradiction to what you are pointing out, but a specific flavor of experience that I am trying to get at.

You mentioned the "flow" experience athletes or musicians might also experience, and that is part of it too, but in my mind it's more than just flow, it's a feeling of being a passenger, or even a puppet, in the hands of some force beyond your comprehension.

It links back to what you said about reliquishing the idea of responsibility for what happens - that giving up, that letting go, as if you were to fall back into the water and let the current carry you were it might, without trying to direct the experience in any way. That utter passivity.

Does that make sense?

For sure each person's specific experiences are going to be different, though it seems there are commonalities, too.
What I'm getting at with the "things happen by themselves" is not so much that you can't predict what can or should happen from one moment to the next in your practice (although that is also true, and part of the reason that letting go is useful), but that it seems to be a common experience to enter into a "space/place" where practice seems to take on a life of its own, carrying one along like a passenger. It's not in contradiction to what you are pointing out, but a specific flavor of experience that I am trying to get at.
You mentioned the "flow" experience athletes or musicians might also experience, and that is part of it too, but in my mind it's more than just flow, it's a feeling of being a passenger, or even a puppet, in the hands of some force beyond your comprehension.
It links back to what you said about reliquishing the idea of responsibility for what happens - that giving up, that letting go, as if you were to fall back into the water and let the current carry you were it might, without trying to direct the experience in any way. That utter passivity.
Does that make sense?

-ona

Yes

Back to Christian-oriented meditation --

After being raised a Christian and then rejecting it and then becoming attracted to and practicing dharma, I spent a lot of my late 30s and 40s trying to integrate the two, or, really, to find a way to be a Christian who meditated that was comfortable to me.

It never really worked, but I sure tried hard.

And, again, one of the main reasons I was attracted to Christianity was the dualist aspect, to be a suffering, me over here, with a loving, helpful God, over there, that I could surrender to, and give all my burdens, and conflicts and ambitions and thoughts and just let go.

I mean, as a mystical, spiritual person, what I relief it could be to just count on the grace of a separate force.

But, like I said it didn't completely work, maybe, mainly because I just can't be dualistic.

However, that is a bit of a lie because I pray all the time and I surrender all the time and I'm happy to do both.

YesBack to Christian-oriented meditation --After being raised a Christian and then rejecting it and then becoming attracted to and practicing dharma, I spent a lot of my late 30s and 40s trying to integrate the two, or, really, to find a way to be a Christian who meditated that was comfortable to me. It never really worked, but I sure tried hard. And, again, one of the main reasons I was attracted to Christianity was the dualist aspect, to be a suffering, me over here, with a loving, helpful God, over there, that I could surrender to, and give all my burdens, and conflicts and ambitions and thoughts and just let go. I mean, as a mystical, spiritual person, what I relief it could be to just count on the grace of a separate force.But, like I said it didn't completely work, maybe, mainly because I just can't be dualistic.However, that is a bit of a lie because I pray all the time and I surrender all the time and I'm happy to do both.

-michaelmonson

Ah, but the trick is that in the end God's not "over there" and "you" are not "over here". In regular modern Christianity, yes, they never go past the dualism. But in mystical Christianity the point is to let that go and realize it's all God - every moment, sensation, perception, thought is God manifesting, "you" are God experiencing "herself" through this endless arising and passing away of phenomena...

The funny thing is I never had the remotest interest in Christianity until quite recently. It seemed banal and judgmental and "dear God, please let me pass my exams and not be gay" or other trite stuff. But every religion has that aspect, too, where it's just about mundane things, like please magickal Boddhisattva, let me have good luck and health and a job. It made no sense in any deeper way, and didn't appeal to me at all. But from the perspective of mystical Christianity, which I'm discovering in these medieval texts, it's really profound, and has a huge overlap with the teachings of Buddhism and other traditions.

So it's fun for me to explore these different traditions, in that context.

It sounds like the group you used to attend that did the Keating stuff was aiming a bit more towards the mystical side, for sure.