Dark Night and Depression

I have an ongoing fascination with the similarities and differences between what we here are calling the "Dark Night" and clinical depression.

As some of you know, I'm a psychologist. Last year when I was going through the DN for the first time, I was also treating people for depression, and it struck me that the symptoms I was treating were so similar to my own experience it was spooky.

Now that I have a little distance from this I'm interested in doing a project on this. To my knowledge, no psychologist has looked at the intersection of clinical depression and DN, in fact most psychologists aren't even aware that DN exists. I'm contemplating a project - maybe a journal article, maybe even a full book, dedicated to the topic.

But before I dive into it, I'd like to get some feedback from others on the forum. What are your thoughts on the DN and depression. How are they the same? How are they different?

When my girlfriend went off her prescribed SSRIS last year, I too found the similarities striking. She would go through a period of anxiety (she didn't even know what anxiety felt like before going off her meds). This would become harsher and harsher and eventually she would go through a bought of intense nausea, etc.

It was quite helpful for me to have gone through the DN prior to her going through this.

I think this is an excellent topic to explore further.

That's a great idea, Ron.

Just for the sake of clarity, are you comparing some of the possible symptoms of a Dark Night to the symptoms of clinical depression as described in the DSM?

What's tricky about this subject is that while a client may present with enough symptoms to be diagnosed with major depressive disorder, the cause for the symptoms may vary considerably (endogenous vs. exogenous, issues related to diversity, etc.). Some treatments work for symptoms related to certain causal mechanisms, but not for others. Of course, you know all of this.

I bring this up out of a particular curiosity. I'm wondering if there are any cases where someone was experiencing 'clinical depression' due to a Dark Night episode, and were given treatment as usual for depression, but did not significantly recover. I imagine one would need to run some kind of clinical trial or case study involving different treatments applied to dark night yogis, to see if their depressive symptoms were better alleviated through insight practice or, say, CBT, or even drug therapy of some kind. I would hypothesize that insight practice would work better due to the suspected causal mechanism.

This kind of work would also involve proposing a theoretical framework that could somehow be validated, which may involve describing the progress of insight in terms that jibe with the existing literature on depression (if that's even possible). Since, as you mentioned, the greater psychological community doesn't seem to recognize stages of insight, it may take a long time for the idea to be accepted.

I'm interested to hear more about the direction you hoping to take in researching this topic.

This is an area I'm also deeply interested in as, in my experience of clinical depression and DN, there are certainly similarities between a lot of the main symptoms of clinical depression and what goes on through DN, but there are some very distinct differences that I find quite hard to express clearly. I've dealt with depression for years (and also watched it destroy members of my family to the point of hospitalization) and currently take a low dose of fluoxetine which appears to maintain the balance, and has allowed me to go through DN and examine these apparent differences.

I'll try to explain as best I can....Depression comes on quite differently from DN, there's something very mental about it, more like the thought loops I'd associate with Re-Observation, and I feel less of the bodily heaviness experienced in DN although that sluggishness is there. For me, DN begins with feeling a change in perceived weight as the body seems to become like softened lead and, by the time 10th ñana comes the weight is felt most on the chest and shoulders. This physical aspect isn't something I've really noticed when going through a depressive period, the tiredness and sluggishness are there but not that same sort of sensations.

I'll really need to have a look at what notes I've taken on this 'cause I've kept some records so far. Main similarities I'd noticed are reactivity, anxiety with no reason behind it, disgust with the world and the inability to see anything good. A big difference I've just remembered is the difference in how emotion is experienced for me, during DN there's a real sincerity and depth to emotions and the cleansing, purgative effects can be beautiful and educational. When depressed, this doesn't really happen in the same way and emotions feel very flat and lifeless.

(Cont)

(Cont)

With regards to what mumuwu said, I would say that the withdrawal from an SSRI feels closer to Dark Night than depression itself, with emphasis on Re-Observation. This is also something I looked at by, perhaps stupidly, stopping taking the pills completely for seven days and observing what happened in my own body. For me, the rawness of sensation and the sense of vulnerability, fear, high anxiety and periods of paranoia experienced through that "feel" more like DN.

I'll try to post some more on this but it would really fascinating to see it addressed in modern psychological terms. Great idea Ron!

Ron:

I think this is worth exploring. I had PTSD and related depression. When I read The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying I realized the PTSD was very much like passing through the bardos. When I shifted my thinking from, 'I have a mental problem,' to 'I am a spiritual being and suffering is the object of my meditation' I started to heal very quickly. I still take one antidepressant. (I think I'm dependent on meds now. I'm a very different person when I try to wean off. ) But, meditation and Eastern philosophy has been the most rewarding path to healing. I tried almost everything Western medicine had to offer with little success. Now, I'm whole and feel rock solid. I have just been accepted to a clinical MSW program, and I will attend a retreat with Phillip Moffitt in a few weeks that explores the benefits of mixing meditation and eastern and western psychotherapy techniques. I'm excited to learn more and to try to help ease the suffering of others. I'd love to read whatever your come up. I have an MFA in creative writing and am working on a memoir of my own dealing with these issues.

Thanks everyone - this is incredibly helpful feedback!

What I'm seeing here is some important information coalescing - this could be something really valuable. Tommy and Cul - your personal reports of this are very important to help me understand. That description of the difference in how depression and DN is experienced is exactly what both psychologists and meditation teachers need to know about, so that they have the right information to refer to one another!

Jackson, I think you are reading my mind about this topic. My guess is that there are a few stages of work that need to be done: 1) documenting the DN as a phenomenon in a westernized scientific context 2) comparing/contrasting it to depression 3) delineating what "treatments" work for each (and for both) and 4) creating a framework that helps therapists and meditation teachers recognize if they are dealing with DN, depression or both.

Complicating this is something you mentioned, which has been on my mind for a few weeks: if a person is vulnerable to depression, can a DN trigger it? If so, there are probably a lot of people who start out with a DN who slide into a depression. Knowing the difference in symptoms between the two might be really helpful...

Ron, I can speak to both Dark Night and depression/anxiety. There are similarities and differences, but they are not, repeat NOT, easy to distinguish. I've always been of the impression that here on KFDh, on DhO and in other related places we are far too quick to tell others "that's Dark night" as if by reading a few sentences from a stranger someone could actually diagnose the difference between Dark Night and something else. There is no stark line between normal life **** and Dark Night, between Dark Night and depression. This willingness to quickly diagnose has always bothered and perplexed me, frankly, so whatever you do, please, please, PLEASE be aware of this and help us all get it right, or know that we cannot.

Just my two cents. If you want more info, which I'd be happy to provide to you privately, send me an e-mail.

Ron, I read your last comment and said (out loud), "Yes!" I'm glad we're on the same page.

I agree that all four of the stages you proposed are good goals to shoot for. I think it fits right in with the current trend of case formulation approaches to the diagnosis and treatment of psychological suffering. Getting detailed information about the client's history and present context are just as important as learning about their symptoms.

There is a big push toward diversity and inter-professional care within the health services industry. The focus right now is more on cultural norms than spiritual/religious practices, so there isn't much information or understanding regarding the latter. But, with mindfulness and meditation becoming more popular in the mainstream, we're likely to see a great deal more folks who may be experiencing psychological suffering as a symptom of their particular stage of contemplative spiritual development.

The good news is that the 3rd generation of evidence-based practice orientations (e.g. ACT, MBCT, DBT, etc.) are becoming based more on experiential interventions than mere talk therapy or drug therapy. DN sufferers need to get back into their experience long enough to cultivate some equanimity, and this might be something a skilled therapist can support and encourage during the 50-minute hour. So, this could very well be the right time to start bring into awareness those aspects of spiritual practice that have yet to be accepted as clinically relevant phenomena.

Exciting stuff!

Chris, I couldn't agree with you more and I think the readiness of people, due to the assumption that, because we're all yogis, all of this must be related to meditation, to diagnose Dark Night based on an internet posting is totally ridculous. I often mention the possibility of depression to those asking these questions because, as you say, there's no stark line between that and Dark Night, and not seeking the appropriate treatment could be disastrous.

They're two very different beasts, but it's like they're from the same family. I also agree very, very much with your opinion regarding distinguishing the two, something I also mentioned in my posting. Keep us updated!

I'm not convinced that DN and depression are different any more than depression is different from one person to the next. Some people cry in morning. Some people don't. Some gain weight, some lose weight. Depression arises due to changing life circumstances, and other factors. DN arise, perhaps, because the yogi has a new translation of what life should be like, and thus, is dealing with a complete change of consciousness. Perhaps the only difference between DN and depression is the way the experience is held. Is this spiritual or is it medical? Is this Eastern or is it Western? Should I treat it with medication or just acknowledge it and allow it to pass on its own? What instrument might one use to reliably differentiate between the two states, if they are in fact two separate states or stages of being?

In my experience, the dark night and depression are distinct and distinguishable. Depressive symptoms are common in the dark night, however it's possible to be in the dark night (and having noticeable dark night symptoms) without depressive symptoms.

Is everyone familiar with Kenneth's concept of "busting" a jhana? You see through the illusion that it's perfect and flawless and totally lacking in dukkha. Before it's busted, you think a jhana is amazing. Afterwards, it still has just as much piti/sukha/upekkha as earlier. You just stop ignoring the dukkha that does still exist if you look at it.

To me, the dark night is when every experience gets busted. You can never truly ignore dukkha once you've busted your entire life. The dark night is when the dukkha is pushed into your face and especially noticeable. Even when you don't meditate, the dukkha is right under the surface, ready to be noticed any time you candidly examine your own experience.

In addition, the dark night is accompanied by typical third vipassana jhana stuff. Odd postural weirdness resembling, but not identical to the body weirdness of Three Characteristics stage. "Disturbance" (actually widening) of the attentional spotlight, aka "the donut." Lack of motivation. In particular, lack of motivation feels good in the third shamatha jhana, because it feels like pleasant restfulness. In the dark night, it can feel more like you just don't give a ****. It can be apathetic, even anhedonic -- especially as you approach the later dark night and draw near to fourth vipassana jhana territory.

This can be very depressing. It commonly co-occurs with depressive symptoms. In my case, I experienced a major depressive episode when I encountered the dark night. While I'm not always the biggest fan of the diathesis-stress model, I think it makes perfect sense in explaining this depressive episode.

The diathesis consisted of multiple risk factors for depression: having ADHD, being homosexual in the southern USA, genetics (affective disorders running in the family), having a circadian rhythm disorder, and a cognitive set that allowed uncorrected self-esteem problems to run amok.

The stresses were entering the dark night unprepared, failing to control the circadian rhythm disorder, being half-in and half-out of a ****** up relationship, and excessive cannabis use. Actually, cannabis use could have been considered a diathesis instead of a stress, depending on your point of view -- it never triggered depressive symptoms by itself, but it worsened them if they were already occurring. And it impaired my ability and motivation to alleviate them using CBT.

Attacking the various causes with MAO inhibition, severely curbing cannabis use, resuming CBT exercises, and correcting the circadian rhythm problem with bright light therapy had wonderful results. Literally wonderful. As in, total remission of all depressive symptoms. (As a side note, this sort of multi-pronged approach is how you're really supposed to treat depression. None of this "here's your prozac, next patient!" crap.)

Interestingly, none of the above interventions did a damned thing about the dark night and its dukkha and fatigue.

This is why I consider the dark night and depression to be related, but not identical. If that were the case, I could not have remission of one without remission of the other.

It's possible that the human nervous system and the human brain can only manifest so many affective states. Having only so many it might be that those are invoked by a myriad of causes and conditions. Thus, it might be really difficult to diagnose the causes (many) through the limited pipeline of the states (few), making it very, very difficult to distinguish the real sources of sadness, anxiety, depression, and so on.

I also try to keep in mind just how impressionable and suggestible human beings are. We love to assign causes, fall in love with concepts and just like to nail it all down.... when really and truly we should admit we can't, and that chaos and uncertainty rule the day more often than not.

Just a few thoughts.

I'll just weigh in here as a psychologist, former depression sufferer, and experienced DN'er.

I would argue that there are significant differences between clinical depression and DN. It isn't always that the symptoms are radically different--though I would argue there likely some differences in loss of functionality between the two. I've been depressed and unable to do much of anything and DN'ing and no one knows but me.

However, the practical difference is the level of consciousness of the person experiencing the issue. I don't know if you could overstate this difference. If you tell someone who is experiencing depression and has little self-reflective capacity that they have a spiritual issue and to meditate through it, you just lost most of your therapeutic leverage and have probably broken empathy with the client as well. Most times depression--if seen in psychological, not medical terms--signals a need for a change in mundane realities--in basic self-esteem, in school or work choices, in relationship or substance issues. It has little to do or say about the deeper processes DN relate to.

One possible caveat: Some people will respond to the idea that their depression is a DN. If you are drawing spiritual populations to your office or to chat with you, it is more likely that they will like this frame. However, meditating through a serious depression unless you've got major (path-level) concentrative capacity just isn't going to happen. So even if the person likes the spiritual frame, finds that motivating, and does meditation, the majority of change activities for depression are going to be the basics: exercise, lifestyle shifts, therapeutic work on self, and possibly medication.

Just IMO and IME, of course.

Mark

Again, I think there are so many "causes" of depression and anxiety and OCD and other related things that to talk about them as if they were all this or all that, or either this or that, or half this and half that, is pretty dubious. Heredity, brain chemistry, personality, habit, self-esteem, and hundreds of other factors are probably involved and everyone who has these symptoms is likely some unique combination of many of them. There are people who are helped greatly by meditation. There are people who are helped greatly by medication. There are people who are helped greatly by therapies of various kinds. And to top it all off people are probably most likely to react well to therapies they THINK will help them, so those inclined toward a spiritual solution will probably fare better with meditation than someone who's not so inclined, as Mark has said.

Again, just making the argument that this whole area is not so simple and easily understood.

Chris makes a critical point, I think. Because neither depression or DN are simple things, understanding how they are different and the same will not be simple either. One of the slight of hand tricks that gets played in the mental health field is to simplify complex experiences into a set of simple symptoms. While this is useful, any psychologist with some experience knows that each depression is unique, and treatments need to be fit to the person and their experience. The same could be said for DN. There are some basics about working through a DN, but how it is experienced is unique to the individual and depending on their personal vulnerabilities, it could trigger all sorts of issues that need to be worked on separately.

My hope is that with a discussion like this we can get at some of the complexity of this issue and see what is really going on. It is unlikely that the story is simple, but I have no doubt that it is important. One of my motivations for doing this is a lingering suspicion that there are therapists out there who are diagnosing people with depression who are going through a DN, and meditation teachers who may be doing the opposite (diagnosing a DN when it is depression). This might not be such a big deal - but I also suspect that, as Mark points out, the "treatments" for each are very different, and could even work against each other depending on the person and the circumstances. With a DN the work that needs to be done is mostly acceptance and making peace with what is happening. To stop resisting and see the truth in the experience moment to moment. For depression, most (not all) treatments are about marshaling the person's resources to work against the symptoms, by getting physically active again, mentally "talking back" to the depressive thoughts, and using critical thinking to see that the core of the experience rests on a set of fictions.

Hi everybody, very interesting discussion. I suffered depression for nearly 15 years on and off after taking LSD. This was the reason i started meditating and is the reason i find myself typing this message today. After experiencing Kudilini energy during the last couple of years, i have come to realise that i had a similar strong Kundilini experience all those years ago while on a trip. Now, had i really been suffering from depression all those years or was it DN??? I had kinda made up my mind, in the last few months, that it was DN all along, now after reading this discussion i'm confused again
What do yer think ? Steve

I think being in the dark night without understanding that it's an opportunity to let go of (some portion of) an inauthentic "me" can be pretty depressing At least that's how it seems to me.

When DN, following upon deep insight (especially when the latter seems for an instant, hour, or extended time to be "enlightenment"), begins to arise, it's like the flood of energy of A&P will naturally erode ego-structures too coarse to contain it. This feels turbulent and disruptive to the degree it's resisted (perhaps to the degree the old identity is clung to, that IS resistance).

So without some theoretical expectation that things will flow in such a pattern, and not lucking into an intuitive sense that DN was progress, lead to a struggle to maintain identity by reducing the overall energy in my system-- so perhaps inducing some symptoms of depression.

I suspect that it is this use of defense mechanisms (distractability, spacyness) and general energetic stagnation (supression) which accounts (in my case at least) for many negative DN symptoms. These symptoms seem similar to some of those of depression. So I speculate that my mind will use similar defenses and strategies to manage DN as it does to manage other identity-threatening information, and wonder if there's any mainstream research on the relationship between depression and identity (formation, regression and transformation) in the psychological literature?

"
My hope is that with a discussion like this we can get at some of the complexity of this issue and see what is really going on. It is unlikely that the story is simple, but I have no doubt that it is important. One of my motivations for doing this is a lingering suspicion that there are therapists out there who are diagnosing people with depression who are going through a DN, and meditation teachers who may be doing the opposite (diagnosing a DN when it is depression). "

I agree, this is a complex but important issue. I can't stress how much I've benefited by reading the various points of view. My concern with any online forum is the use of careless speech. This seems to me to be the opposite of that. I would like to know how one works through DN, how commonly DN occurs on the 'hard-core' path.

books.google.com/ebooks/reader?printsec=...live&id=vzHaMJpBoJMC

or

www.amazon.com/Hell-Mercy-Meditation-Dep...-Night/dp/0060825189

Awesome Chris! I just ordered a copy for myself.

I ordered a copy, too! Thanks for the suggestion.

Few things are more complex than a human bodymind. Still, I find a cautiously reductive (NOT greedily reductive) approach useful in issues like trying to differentiate between DN and depression, or deciding if that's even possible.

To say "it's too complex to understand everything at play" is totally true, and it doesn't help form a useful heuristic aside from "treat each case individually." And everyone here already knows that. Hopefully.

For those who want/need to make these sorts of distinctions, it wouldn't hurt to make a falsifiable claim. Say something that can be argued against. Run the risk of 5 people saying "My experience was different in these specific ways." In my opinion, that kind of dialogue would be extremely useful.

On that note, anyone who disagrees with this or my previous post is invited to disagree as openly and specifically as possible. Don't worry about offending me -- I watch Jersey Shore. Nothing offends me anymore =)

I'm for accepting (and candidly investigating) the losses we incur by distilling guiding principles from these complex phenomena. Think of the progress of insight. It's simplified map that helps guide you through a vastly more complex reality. There's no litmus test that says "Oh, you're definitely in this stage" for all yogis. Still, it's useful. If we were all in a room together, and I asked for a show of hands by everyone who has benefited from the Idiot's Guide to Dharma Diagnosis, even if it was sometimes wrong, how many hands would we see?

So, what factors do we find useful in differentiating the dark night and depression? Or, do you not find it useful to treat them separately? Since we're never going to dig through all the complexity, we need to have a standard other than truthfulness to measure these ideas by. My vote is practicality. What's yours?